Re: Warning to translators

[Edward Lipsett]

on 07.2.28 2:12 AM, James Sparks wrote:

> My only purpose in posting to the list was to warn others about what I
> consider a bad client, something which is done frequently on this list,
> and which is the second most important reason for the existence of the
> list.

I agree with James that this is a crucial reason for the existence of the
list. There are a number of "bad payers" lists, but let's face it -- most of
them are European, and an awful lot of the people in the JE field are right
here, where information is densest.

This list, and indeed the Internet as a whole, has a widespread and often
unspoken policy concerning posts which can ruffle feathers and cause flame
wars or lawsuits. This is a professional list, and while posts warning of
people to watch out for are welcomed, perhaps we all need to learn to use
the numbers keys with the shift key held down. I have been guilty of, shall
we say, unduly explicit language in the past, and I have no doubt I will
repeat the error in the future, but I hope list members will join me in
trying to minimize usage by everyone.

Another person (Steve Venti, IIRC) asked if we could be more aggressive in
policing posts. Yes, we can, but given the nature of the list, by the time
we contact the poster and ask him/her to stay cool, six people have already
responded. Things heat up very quickly. Many people have received requests
or warnings from the owners or moderators, and a few have been put on full
moderation. One person was banned from the list.
We do what we can, but we are not full-time moderators, and the members are
not children.

All I can say if please try to think before you post.
I try, and often succeed. I still have my moments, which is why there are
two other list owners to control me now (only half in jest).

Thank you for your time.

--
Edward Lipsett, one of three list owners
Fukuoka, Japan

[jsn...@gmail.com]

Edward Lipsett wrote:

> Another person (Steve Venti, IIRC) asked if we could be more aggressive in policing posts.

Oh, I don't think Steve meant it that way, because I know he is
against policing the list at all. What he probably meant was it would
be nice if we had some published guidelines which stress that the list
is for the discussion of translation topics and discourage posts that
contain *nothing other* than speculation about people's personalities
and their on- or off-list behavior.

Far be it from Steve to ever burn anyone's farm down.

snopes

[Edward Lipsett]

on 07.2.28 2:49 PM, jsn...@gmail.com wrote:

> What he probably meant was it would
> be nice if we had some published guidelines

Except for the fact that the end of the Japanese fiscal year is approaching
and everyone needs things done now if not sooner, we would be working on
this.

We plan to rework the original honyaku FAQ and other sources, and make the
file available on the list home page. Probably put a link in the footer,
too.
Please stay tuned for further developments.

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

Edward Lipsett <trans...@intercomltd.com> wrote:

> Things heat up very quickly. Many people have received requests
> or warnings from the owners or moderators, and a few have been put on full
> moderation. One person was banned from the list.

Are you talking about past events here, or the current imbroglio?

BTW, I like the current footer much better than the first version after
the change.

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Marc Adler]

jsn...@gmail.com wrote:

> Oh, I don't think Steve meant it that way, because I know he is

What's with the coy pseudonym/flagrant sock-puppet?

Marc Adler

[Edward Lipsett]

on 07.2.28 9:23 PM, Wolfgang Bechstein wrote:
>
>> Things heat up very quickly. Many people have received requests
>> or warnings from the owners or moderators, and a few have been put on full
>> moderation. One person was banned from the list.
>
> Are you talking about past events here, or the current imbroglio?

Yes. (How's that for grammatically correct English with no useful content at
all?)

> BTW, I like the current footer much better than the first version after
> the change.

Thank you. It's still subject to change, of course, but this seems to be the
current consensus.

--
Edward Lipsett
Intercom, Ltd.
Fukuoka, Japan
Tel: 092-712-9120
Fax: 092-712-9220
trans...@intercomltd.com
http://www.intercomltd.com

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

Edward Lipsett <trans...@intercomltd.com> wrote:

> How's that for grammatically correct English with no useful content at all?

Fine. Just dandy. Peaches. Like Honyaku will be soon...

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Wataru Tenga]

Wolfgang Bechstein wrote:
> Edward Lipsett <trans...@intercomltd.com> wrote:
> > How's that for grammatically correct English with no useful content at
> > all?
>
> Fine. Just dandy. Peaches. Like Honyaku will be soon...

In fairness to Ed, he has been trying for several months to turn over his
duties to someone else. The absence (apparently) of takers shows what a
thankless job it is. Let's all cut the man some slack, and thank him for
continuing to take his unpaid job seriously.
--
Wataru Tenga, Tokyo

[Edward Lipsett]

Thank you, Wataru.

On Mar 1, 9:38 am, Wataru Tenga <wte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In fairness to Ed, he has been trying for several months to turn over his
> duties to someone else. The absence (apparently) of takers shows what a
> thankless job it is. Let's all cut the man some slack, and thank him for
> continuing to take his unpaid job seriously.

Edward Lipsett
Fukuoka, Japan

[Richard Thieme]

----- Original Message -----
??? : "Wataru Tenga" <wte...@gmail.com>
?? : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
???? : 2007?3?1? 9:38
?? : Re: Warning to translators

Or maybe Wolfgang should be volunteered?

Regards,

Richard Thieme

[Manako Ihaya]

From: "Richard Thieme" <rdth...@gol.com>

>
> Or maybe Wolfgang should be volunteered?

No, no, no, we at JAT need Wolfgang to continue devoting all his non-work
and non-family time to being an Auditor at JAT! :-)

--
Manako Ihaya (aka Monica)
ATA-Certified Japanese-English Translator
(Also JAT Vice President and Membership Secretary)
Lake Forest, California

[Jim Lockhart]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:27:54 +0900
"Richard Thieme" <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:

> Or maybe Wolfgang should be volunteered?

My vote is for Marc.

--Jim Lockhart

[Akebono Translation Service]

Dear Edward,

>> Let's all cut the man some slack, and thank him for

>> continuing to take his unpaid job seriously.

I second that. I've done a similar job for seven years at a stretch. Like they say: there's no cook that can cook for a hundred people. No matter what you do, you will always upset someone. 

Best regards,

Loek van Kooten

-- 

Akebono Translation Service

Rijnstraat 32

2311 NK Leiden

The Netherlands

Tel: +31-71-5128026

Fax: +31-84-7390618

www.akebono.nl

 

Algemene voorwaarden: www.akebono.nl/algemeen.doc

Terms and conditions: www.akebono.nl/terms.doc

Chamber of Commerce reg. no.: 28066372

 

IMPORTANT: All delivery dates stated in quotes are as of the moment the quote

was sent and can change as soon as other projects come in.

BELANGRIJK: Bij alle leveringsdata in offertes gaan we uit van de agenda op dat

moment. De data kunnen wijzigen zodra er andere projecten binnenkomen.

[Edward Lipsett]

on 07.3.1 3:45 PM, Akebono Translation Service wrote:

> I second that. I've done a similar job for seven years at a stretch. Like they
> say: there's no cook that can cook for a hundred people. No matter what you
> do, you will always upset someone.

Thank you, Loek.

It's not all me, by far. There are two other list owners and three list
moderators, all of whom help out.

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

"Manako Ihaya" <man...@ihaya.org> wrote:

> No, no, no, we at JAT need Wolfgang...

Thanks Manako (and Jim).

Just for the record, I normally (believe that I) am supportive of the
owners and moderators and appreciative of the work they do. It was just
the somewhat flippant tone in that particular message of Ed's that had
me reach for the Send finger somewhat too quickly.

And also for the record, I have yet to receive Wataru's comment (I only
saw it quoted in Ed's follow-up).

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

I penned:

> that had me reach for the Send finger

I think I meant reach for the Send button, twitch the Send finger,
whatever...

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Edward Lipsett]

Wolfgang Bechstein wrote:
>
>> Edward Lipsett <trans...@intercomltd.com> wrote:
>>> How's that for grammatically correct English with no useful content at
>>> all?
>>
>> Fine. Just dandy. Peaches. Like Honyaku will be soon...

The alternative would have been a somewhat less interesting "Sorry, no
comment." Would that have earned any less ire?

[Doreen Simmons]

It depends on the angle of the finger, Wolfgang. I'm having one of those days too --
fortunately for the propriety of this list I'm still trying to sort out my Necessary Expenses
from those which were merely fun. God bless the moderators, say I.

>I penned:
>
>> that had me reach for the Send finger
>
>I think I meant reach for the Send button, twitch the Send finger,
>whatever...

Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
"Live immoderately -- but don't overdo it."

[Dave / Shiga Translation]

Here here!   I don't monitor, let alone contribute to, this group very often, but I've seen enough of it to understand what a tough job being the moderator can be.   I also own and moderate a group on Yahoo, but I have to tell you, Honyaku appears to be a much tougher group to manage.   My hat's off to Ed and the other moderators and owners, and my apologies are tendered to Wataru, who will likely once again be annoyed by my Incredimail client.  ;-)   Cheers!   Dave Reese Sagamihara, Japan       -------Original Message-------

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

"Dave / Shiga Translation" <da...@shigatranslation.com> wrote:

> Here here!

Where where?

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Alan Siegrist]

Wolfgang Bechstein writes:

> > Here here!
>
> Where where?

There, there.

Regards,

Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
AlanFS...@Comcast.net

[Adam Beal]

--- Alan Siegrist <AlanFS...@Comcast.net> wrote:

>
> Wolfgang Bechstein writes:
>
> > > Here here!
> >
> > Where where?
>
> There, there.

Come on, now.

Adam

Adam M. Beal
Tokyo, Japan
genju...@yahoo.co.jp

--------------------------------------
Start Yahoo! Auction now! Check out the cool campaign
http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/auction/

[Mark Spahn]

BTW, I like the current footer much better than the first version after
the change.

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

=== UNQUOTE ===

 

 

[Mark Spahn]

BTW, I like the current footer much better than the first version after
the change.

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

???

=== UNQUOTE ===

 

And I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of the lines before and

after the footer:  wiggles "randomly" embedded in rows of hyphens.

It must be some kind of binary encoding scheme, but months of

cryptological analysis have proven fruitless in trying to crack the code.

 

-- Mark Spahn  (West Seneca, NY)

 

[James Sparks]

Dave / Shiga Translation wrote:
> I don't monitor, let alone contribute to, this group very often,

I want to confirm something.
I often see usage such as the above, which I consider a logical, if not
grammatical, error. In the form "I don't xxx, let alone XXX, ..." XXX
should be bigger, more important, more difficult, etc., than xxx.
For example, we can say:
"I don't sing in front of people, let alone on stage."
But we don't say:
"I don't sing on stage, let alone in front of people."
This English form is very close to the Japanese まして, which can be
used as follows.
"学費も払えないのに、まして新車なんて買えないよ。"
This could be translated, among other ways, as:
"I can't even pay my tuition, let alone buy a brand new car."
I haven't been able to find anything that corroborates my belief on
this, though. Do others agree with me here? And if I'm right, I wonder
why so many people make this error.

> my apologies are tendered to Wataru, who will likely once again be
> annoyed by my Incredimail client.

I doubt it annoys me as much as it annoys Wataru, but I do think it
looks silly, and doesn't seem appropriate in email sent to this list,
let alone to a client. <note usage>

James Sparks

[musi...@gmail.com]

At 9:12 AM -0800 3/1/07, James Sparks wrote:

>I want to confirm something.
> I often see usage such as the above, which I consider a logical, if not
>grammatical, error. In the form "I don't xxx, let alone XXX, ..." XXX
>should be bigger, more important, more difficult, etc., than xxx.

> (SNIP)

> I haven't been able to find anything that corroborates my belief on
>this, though. Do others agree with me here? And if I'm right, I wonder
>why so many people make this error.

I agree with you that "let alone" should precede the thing that is
even less likely. The example you quote, however ("I don't monitor,
let alone contribute to, this group very often"), looks right to me.
I suspect that "monitor" in Dave/Shiga Translation's message means
"check the group while logged into googlegroups," or possibly "follow
most of the threads." In other words, monitoring the group is a very
low level of involvement, and posting is a higher level. So the use
of "let alone" is correct.

Dave/Shiga Translation's comments could be rephrased as follows:

"I barely even read Honyaku posts, let alone write them."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding Dave/Shiga Translation's comments, but
that's the meaning that came across to me. Did you misread "monitor"
as "moderate", perhaps?

Irith Bloom
Los Angeles, CA

[James Sparks]

musi...@gmail.com wrote:
> I agree with you that "let alone" should precede the thing that is
> even less likely. The example you quote, however ("I don't monitor,
> let alone contribute to, this group very often"), looks right to me.
> I suspect that "monitor" in Dave/Shiga Translation's message means
> "check the group while logged into googlegroups," or possibly "follow
> most of the threads."

<dope slap>
Of course, you're right, Irith. Because of the context (giving moral
support to Edward), I mistakenly interpreted Dave's comment to mean "I
don't moderate, let alone contribute to, this group." So, my bad, and
apologies to Dave. However, I probably misinterpreted because if Dave
doesn't monitor the list, then how is he making a comment about this
thread? It may be because that doesn't make sense that I jumped to the
wrong conclusion.
That said, I would still like confirmation of my statement. I see this
error (if it is one) so often that I have begun to wonder if I am mistaken.

James Sparks

[Mark Spahn]

I agree with James and Irith that the correct usage is

"xxx, let alone XXX", where xxx is a lesser matter than XXX.

Notice that adding "even" reinforces the meaning, as in

"I don't even jog, let alone run marathons."

 

A dictionary provides a few different ways to say this:

"let alone = much less, not to mention

Example:  he would not taste the oysters, let alone the squid"

 

In my opinion, this is a poor example sentence,

because it is not clear which creepy animal takes more courage to

taste for the first time.  A better sentence would be:

"He wouldn't taste (even) the chocolate-covered strawberries,

let alone the chocolate-covered maggots."

 

Question:  Is "let alone" in this sense always used with a negative verb?

 

As James points out, the corresponding expression uses

まして, maybe in contrast with　もちろんのこと.

I'll leave it to someone else to catalog the several ways

to express this idea in both languages.

[Wes Freeman]

~.~

[Tadao Kageyama]

At 1:16 PM -0500 03/01/07, Mark Spahn wrote:
...

Question: Is "let alone" in this sense always used with a negative verb?

I'm not in a position to answer the question, but whenever
I come across "let alone," the well-publicized line pops up in
my mind:

"I don't want to be in the same room with him, let alone
the same bed." -- HRC

～～～～～～ Tadao Kageyama, Norwalk, CT ～～～～～～

[Wes Freeman]

Question:  Is "let alone" in this sense always used with a negative verb?

-- Mark Spahn  (West Seneca, NY)

Here comes a non-negative verb example with the same usage:

"I can hardly/barely walk, let alone run."

Wes@thoroughly enjoying these types of questions

[Benjamin Barrett]

I think it's fair to say that those adverbs have a negative polarity
whose presence is the same as a negative verb. BB

[Wes Freeman]

Thanks for pointing me to an interesting linguistic topic, BB.

I can scarcely think of more examples, let alone examples without negative polarity or negative verbs.

Wes

[Tadao Kageyama]

At 1:16 PM -0500 03/01/07, Mark Spahn wrote:

>...

>Question: Is "let alone" in this sense always used with a negative verb?

Here are some citations preceded by non-negative verbs:

1) This is the miracle baby mum Amanda Bland was told she would never have
after battling breast cancer. ... She said: "Everyone was telling me I would be
lucky to survive the cancer, let alone have children."
-- The Mirror, October 19, 2004

2) If the Chargers beat the Falcons (9-2), it will be the first time a VIS
Division I team has won two championships, let alone back-to-back titles.
-- The Virginian Pilot, November 20, 1998

3) <Semantically negative> "The trouble is that at 8,500m (27,887ft) it is
extremely difficult to keep yourself alive, let alone keep anyone else
alive," he told the Close Up programme from Kathmandu.
-- Evening Gazette, May 24, 2006

4) <Semantically negative> But who believes her now? Initially described as
a "nurse" or a "nanny", Karen was also a retired pub kissogram girl who,
allegedly, once had an affair with a 19-year-old toyboy and had undergone a
previous abortion. Given her full track record, you or I would think twice
about using her for an evening's baby-sitting, let alone as a surrogate
mother.
-- The Mirror, May 16, 1997

～～～～～～ Tadao Kageyama, Norwalk, CT ～～～～～～

[Benjamin Barrett]

To me, example 2 sounds like it should be "much less" not "let alone".

The same might be true of number 1, though it seems much better than
2. I wonder if it's due to an effect of the conditional...BB

[Mark Spahn]

Your example is a negative one too ("don't").  In thinking further on this,

one could use a "let alone" expression with a not-exactly-negative word

like "barely", "hardly", "scarcely":  "I can barely stand to be in the same room

with him, let alone the same bed."  Come to think of it, "barely" means

"almost not".  -- Mark Sp.

[Julian Wayne]

On Mar 2, 2:12 am, James Sparks <jspa...@alamedanet.net> wrote:
> Dave / Shiga Translation wrote:
>
> > I don't monitor, let alone contribute to, this group very often,
>

> I often see usage such as the above, which I consider a logical, if not
> grammatical, error.

I think the use of "let alone" is okay here. He's describing how
unqualified he feels to comment on this issue, and so "not
contributing very often" ranks above "not monitoring".

Julian Wayne

[Sam Spiteri]

Does anybody have an idea to what a サーボ欠点除去レスシステムis?

There's not much context except to say it's some kind of system used for
database maintenance.

An help appreciated.

-Sam

[Alan Siegrist]

Sam Spiteri writes:

> Does anybody have an idea to what a サーボ欠点除去レスシステムis?

Well, this is not much but サーボ欠点 is probably a "servo defect" which is
a type of error in magnetic storage (hard disk, tape drive) systems.

I can only conjecture that certain servo defect handling routines treat a
servo defect as a fatal error and "remove" the defects by transferring data
to media having no such servo defects. Such a handling routine might involve
a performance penalty, so this サーボ欠点除去レスシステム might be
preferable. Presumably the servo defects are still there, but they are
marked bad and avoided (using redundant media or data) rather than removed.

I will leave the English rendering up to you.

[Sam Spiteri]

Thanks to Alan and others for the information. It was the remove'less' part
that puzzled me but I'll just work around it.

Thanks again.

-Sam