4銭也の割合 in a description of a late fee

[Katy Bridges]

Greetings, Honyakers,

In a lease that I am working on there is a a description of a late fee which reads:

...日歩４銭也の割合...

Never having seen a rate described like this before, it looks to me like an amount in tiny fractions of yen. Can anyone help me with a yen amount here?

Thanks in advance.

Katy Bridges

...

[Herman]

On 6/17/2013 17:37, Katy Bridges wrote:
> Greetings, Honyakers,
>
> In a lease that I am working on there is a a description of a late fee
> which reads:
>
> ...日歩４銭也の割合...
>
> Never having seen a rate described like this before, it looks to me like
> an amount in tiny fractions of yen. Can anyone help me with a yen amount
> here?

That would be 4 sen per 100 yen per day.

Herman Kahn

[Mark Spahn]

Katy Bridges asks about

...日歩４銭也の割合...

The "hibu" means "interest per 100 yen per day".

As you probably know, a 銭 is 1/100 of a yen.

So this interest rate is 4/100 of a yen per 100 yen per day

= 4/(100*100) per day = .0004 per day

= .04 percent per day (compounded?)

(Check my arithmetic!)

The 也 is read "nari" and is a snazzy suffix to

put at the end of an amount, especially when

when setting up soroban calculation problems.

-- Mark Spahn  (West Seneca, NY)

 

[Fred Uleman]

Yes, do check Mark's arithmetic.
For example, by Googling for "日歩4銭　％" without the quotation marks.

- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
Fred Uleman

[GOODMAN]

Simply put, it is 4%.


Tetsuo Sato 13/06/18 11:08

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[Fred Uleman]

Katy,

You might also want to check Mr Sato's arithmetic. Same procedure.

[Mark Spahn]

Subject: Re: 4銭也の割合 in a description of a late fee

Simply put, it is 4%.
Tetsuo Sato 13/06/18 11:08

- - - - - - - -
日歩4銭也の割合 is an interest rate.
The unit (単位) of an interest rate is a certain fraction
*per unit time*, such as so-many-percent per day,
or so-many-percent per year(=annum).
("4%" doesn't specify the unit of time.)

Okay, just as a little exercise, lets calculate
日歩4銭也の割合 as a rate per annum...
日歩4銭也の割合
= 4 sen/100 yen per day
= .04 yen/100 yen per day
= .0004 per day
= 365*.0004 per year
= .146 per annum
= 14.6 percent per annum
This assumes simple interest.
If the interest is compounded, over a period
of a year (365 days), 1 unit of money increases to
(1.0004)^365 = 1.157162407 units of money
= 15.7 percent per annum.
Correcto?

[Herman]

> Okay, just as a little exercise, lets calculate
> 日歩4銭也の割合 as a rate per annum...
> 日歩4銭也の割合
> = 4 sen/100 yen per day
> = .04 yen/100 yen per day
> = .0004 per day
> = 365*.0004 per year
> = .146 per annum
> = 14.6 percent per annum
> This assumes simple interest.
> If the interest is compounded, over a period
> of a year (365 days), 1 unit of money increases to
> (1.0004)^365 = 1.157162407 units of money
> = 15.7 percent per annum.
> Correcto?
> -- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
>

Your calculations are basically correct, but in terms of the
translation, I think it is better to say "a rate of 4 sen per 100 yen
per day" rather than converting to a percentage.

Herman Kahn

[christopher blakeslee]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Herman <sl...@lmi.net> wrote:

Your calculations are basically correct, but in terms of the

translation, I think it is better to say "a rate of 4 sen per 100 yen
per day" rather than converting to a percentage.

Not only is this the  most literal way to translate it, it is also the best way to translate it because it eliminates the possibility that someone will mistakenly think the interest is compounded. The Japanese sounds like a complicated way to talk about an interest rate, but it makes it clear that it is simple interest, meaning interest is only earned on the principal, not on the principal plus the interest earned until then. I am anything but a chokuyakuist, but here is a good example of the chokuyaku approach being the best choice.

Chris Blakeslee

[Brian Chandler]

christopher blakeslee wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Herman <sl...@lmi.net> wrote:
>
> > Your calculations are basically correct, but in terms of the
> > translation, I think it is better to say "a rate of 4 sen per 100 yen
> > per day" rather than converting to a percentage.
> >
> >
> Not only is this the most literal way to translate it, it is also the best

> way to translate it...

I don't think so, because it requires the reader to know what 'sen'
means.

> ... because it eliminates the possibility that someone will

> mistakenly think the interest is compounded. The Japanese sounds like a
> complicated way to talk about an interest rate, but it makes it clear that

> it is simple interest,...

I understand the difference between simple and compount interest, but
the Japanese says nothing explicit about this, and translated the
obvious way as "0.04% per day" the English would say nothing explicit
either, with the advantage that you do not need to be familiar with
obsolete Japanese currency units.

FWIW, I seem to recall that an era ago sterling interest rates were
sometimes quoted in the same sort of way, so that for example a ratio
of 1/300 would be "6s 8d percent", despite the obvious units error.

Brian Chandler

[Brian Chandler]

Fred Uleman wrote:
> Katy,
>
> You might also want to check Mr Sato's arithmetic. Same procedure.

I can't see anything wrong with his arithmetic; it seems to be a
problem of common knowledge. (You've said this twice now, and neither
makes any sense to me.)

Brian Chandler

[Herman]

On 6/18/2013 01:22, Brian Chandler wrote:
> christopher blakeslee wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Herman <sl...@lmi.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Your calculations are basically correct, but in terms of the
>>> translation, I think it is better to say "a rate of 4 sen per 100 yen
>>> per day" rather than converting to a percentage.
>>>
>>>
>> Not only is this the most literal way to translate it, it is also the best
>> way to translate it...
>
> I don't think so, because it requires the reader to know what 'sen'
> means.
>
>> ... because it eliminates the possibility that someone will
>> mistakenly think the interest is compounded. The Japanese sounds like a
>> complicated way to talk about an interest rate, but it makes it clear that
>> it is simple interest,...
>
> I understand the difference between simple and compount interest, but
> the Japanese says nothing explicit about this, and translated the
> obvious way as "0.04% per day" the English would say nothing explicit
> either, with the advantage that you do not need to be familiar with
> obsolete Japanese currency units.
>

From the standpoint of maximum ease of understanding, "0.04% per day"
would be preferable, but in terms of the robustness of the translation,
"4 sen per 100 yen" is better. What I mean by robustness is that, for
example, if you had to translate some future correspondence regarding
this document that said something like 「日歩4銭也の割合とあるのを一日
４％に換えたが、これは誤解で、０．０４％という解釈が正しい。」　, you
would be able to handle it without creating inconsistencies with the
original translation.

Herman Kahn

[Mark Spahn]

The difference between simple, compound, and
continuous interest is explained at
http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-simple-compound-and-continuous-interest-rates/
.

Christopher Blakeslee says that 日歩4銭也の割合
refers to simple interest, not compound interest.
How do we know this? Is 日歩 ("hibu") *defined*
to be simple interest? Apparently not.
A dictionary says
日歩 = 元金百円に対する、一日あたりの利息。
hibu = interest per day per 100 yen of principal.
This says nothing about how the principal
changes from one day to the next (with simple
interest, it changes not at all).
Brian Chandler and Herman Kahn have explained
this well. But I would avoid the currency unit
"sen" in a translation, because a non-Japanese
translation consumer cannot be depended on to know
that sen = 1/100 yen.
In my opinion, 日歩4銭也の割合 is best translated as
"an interest rate of 0.04 yen per 100 yen per day".
This bypasses the problem of introducing the
obscure term 銭 (sen), and remains silent about
whether the interest is simple or compounded.
Question: Do Japanese children know what a 銭 is?
Do British children know what a farthing is?
Informal surveys are welcome.

[Fred Uleman]

If you are going to go with "an interest rate of 0.04 yen per 100 yen per day," why not make it "an interest rate of 0.4 yen per 1,000 yen"?

And yes, while not a Japanese child myself, I assume Japanese children know what a sen is. (And anyone who plays the stock market most certainly knows it.)

[Susan Murata]

And there are industries, such as the printing industry, where fees are still calculated with sen as the base unit.

 

Susan Murata

[Mark Spahn]

If you are going to go with "an interest rate of 0.04 yen per 100 yen per day," why not make it "an interest rate of 0.4 yen per 1,000 yen"?
And yes, while not a Japanese child myself, I assume Japanese children know what a sen is. (And anyone who plays the stock market most certainly knows it.)

Fred Uleman

- - - - - - - - - - -

Well, the "per day" part is important. 

"0.04 yen per 100 yen per day" is meant to reflect the original wording.

But the fraction (0.04 yen)/(100 yen) can be expressed in

many ways (the "yen"s cancel out), such as

0.0004, or 0.04 percent, or 4 yen per 1-man-en.

 

I'm a bit curious about Japanese children's knowledge of

what a "sen" is, as this unit does not represent a current coin.

At what age would a child learn what a sen is,

and in what context? (from an centuries-old story?)

Similarly for British children and "farthing",

and French children and "sou".

[Mark Spahn]

Fred Uleman said:

And yes, while not a Japanese child myself, I assume Japanese children know what a sen is. (And anyone who plays the stock market most certainly knows it.)

 

And there are industries, such as the printing industry, where fees are still calculated with sen as the base unit.

 Susan Murata

- - - - - -

 

The sen today is a

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/money%20of%20account 

for which no corresponding coin or paper money exists.

Another money of account is the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_(currency) ,

(also spelled "mill"), which is defined to be

"one tenth of a cent: $0.001: a monetary unit used in

calculating but not as a coin."  An example:

Property taxes are also expressed in terms of mills per dollar assessed (a mill levy, known more widely in the US as a "mill rate"). For instance, with a millage rate of 5.753 mills, a $100,000 house would be taxed 575,300 mills, or $575.30. The term is often spelled "mil" when used in this context.

[christopher blakeslee]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Brian Chandler 

I don't think so, because it requires the reader to know what 'sen'
means.

I agree with you here, I was more focused on the rest of the translation and pressed for time, but instead of 0.04% per day would say JPY0.04 per JPY100.

 

I understand the difference between simple and compount interest, but
the Japanese says nothing explicit about this, and translated the

Actually it does, the description leaves absolutely  no possibility of compounding, making it quite explicit, and thus the English must also be explicit.

 

Chris Blakeslee

[Katy Bridges]

Many thanks to all who replied to my question. Jeepers, I became a
translator because I was told there would be no math! I am so thankful
for that y'all know not just Japanese but math as well. I will go with
the interest rate of 14.6 percent because later versions of similar
leases for the same project use that as a rate. BTW, the history
lesson was interesting too. Although I know what a sen is, I had no
idea what a mill was. Live and learn.

Thanks again,
Katy Bridges

[Benjamin Barrett]

And FWIW, the word is well documented in English. Among dictionaries that include entries for "sen" are the OED, the AHD, Wiktionary and the Mac dictionary.

Benjamin Barrett

Seattle, WA

[Mark Spahn]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Brian Chandler 

I don't think so, because it requires the reader to know what 'sen'
means.

I agree with you here, I was more focused on the rest of the translation and pressed for time, but instead of 0.04% per day would say JPY0.04 per JPY100 [per day!].

 

I understand the difference between simple and compount interest, but
the Japanese says nothing explicit about this, and translated the

Actually it does, the description leaves absolutely  no possibility of compounding, making it quite explicit, and thus the English must also be explicit.

 

Chris Blakeslee

- - - - - - - -

Chris,

By "the description" you mean the wording

日歩４銭也の割合  , right?

Why do you believe that this wording "leave absolutely

no possibility of compounding"?

Please, give some evidence for your assertion.

Does 日歩 always refer to only simple interest?

If so, how did you come to know this?

I looked up 日歩 in a dictionary, whose definition

was silent about the issue of whether the amount

of interest each day is added to the principal so that

the principal for calculating the second day's amount

of interest is greater than the principal for calculating

the first day's amount of interest -- i.e., whether the

interest is simple or compounded.

[Herman]

On 6/18/2013 04:05, Mark Spahn wrote:

> Christopher Blakeslee says that 日歩4銭也の割合
> refers to simple interest, not compound interest.
> How do we know this? Is 日歩 ("hibu") *defined*
> to be simple interest? Apparently not.
> A dictionary says
> 日歩 = 元金百円に対する、一日あたりの利息。
> hibu = interest per day per 100 yen of principal.
> This says nothing about how the principal
> changes from one day to the next (with simple
> interest, it changes not at all).

This language does not rule out the possibility of existence of other
contractual stipulations or statutory provisions (法定重利) which may
have the effect of compounding, but it itself does not stipulate any
particular compounding scheme, and thus in effect is referring to simple
interest. To put it another way, one can look at compound interest as
consisting of two steps: (1) charging a particular percentage on the
principal; (2) adding the amount calculated in (1) to the principal at
certain times. The above text only specifies step (1).

Herman Kahn

[Steven P. Venti]

Herman <sl...@lmi.net> wrote:
> This language does not rule out the possibility of existence of other
> contractual stipulations or statutory provisions (法定重利) which may have
> the effect of compounding, but it itself does not stipulate any particular
> compounding scheme, and thus in effect is referring to simple interest.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1174336251

If I understand the content of the above link correctly, then the question of
compounding is determined by law (民法４０５条等), not by the wording of the
description.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com

I would not wish to any of them what I have had to suffer
for things that I am not guilty of. But my conviction is that
I have suffered for things that I am guilty of.
-- Bartolomeo Vanzetti
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Mark Spahn]

Okay, this makes sense. If the penalty were more than proportional to the
duration of the offense, there would be some wording to say so. One could
imagine an exponentially increasing greater-than-linear penalty to
discourage the offender from just letting the offense continue and paying
the penalty as a cost of business,but the absence of such a provision means
that this is not the case.
And thank you, Steve Venti, for finding the following information that
simple interest is involved, except in some cases when the offense lasts
longer than year.

-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

「金銭借用書」にある「遅延損害金」の「日歩○銭」というのは、単利とか複利とか特に記載が無い場合、１年複利と解していいでしょうか？

ベストアンサーに選ばれた回答
原則として単利だと思います。
但し民法４０５条に該当した場合は複利とされる場合があります。

第405条 利息の支払が１年分以上延滞した場合において、
債権者が催告をしても、債務者がその利息を支払わないときは、
債権者は、これを元本に組み入れることができる。