Are we undercutting one another?
Karen Sandness
amounted to US$0.05 a word.
When I turned it down, the coordinator said that it was okay, that
they had just placed it. Now it may be that they "placed" it with
someone in-house, but still...
Since I have not worked for 5 cents a word since my very first job in
1994, I'm wondering who is stupid or desperate enough to accept this
rate. In fact this same company paid me 10 cents a word in 1997.
I've told them repeatedly that I don't work for such rates, but they
keep offering.
I know that times are tough, and I'm willing to give clients a break
of a couple of cents per word, but evidently this particular agency is
not only trying to win customers by being the cheapest provider in a
number of cities around the world but is also expecting those of us
who pay First World prices to accept Third World rates and be satisfied.
Such companies need to have such a hard time finding translators that
their customers become disgusted with their low quality.
Solidarity foreverly yours,
Karen Sandness
Alan Siegrist
> Today, a major translation company offered me a job at a rate that
> amounted to US$0.05 a word.
>
> When I turned it down, the coordinator said that it was okay, that
> they had just placed it.
I had a similar experience over the weekend. They needed a translation in a
complicated technical field done on Easter Sunday, so I certainly expected
to charge a rush rate. They offered US$0.14 per word, saying that is all
they had in their budget.
Perhaps I was foolish, but I turned them down. I was hoping that they would
not be able to place the translation on such short notice on a weekend and
they would come back to me and accept my higher rate. But I guess they
managed to place the job with someone else. Then they wanted me to
"proofread" the work done by the other translator, and I didn't want to do
that either. Who knows what they would have come back to me with?
Their usual rate is 12 cents and I usually don't work for that either.
But it is a free market and it is possible to price yourself out of the
market.
I don't really know what to make of the market, but I have seen downward
pressure on rates lately. If we want to keep fully employed, perhaps it
might be necessary to take lower rates.
But still, 5 cents a word is ridiculous!
Solidarily yours,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Karen Sandness
As I mentioned, I'm willing to be flexible on rates to stay employed--
although only within reason, but obviously someone is accepting these
absurd rates. Perhaps there are a lot of newbies who don't know what
the prevailing rates are or are willing to do anything to gain
experience.
Labor marketly yours,
Karen Sandness
Joji Matsuo
> Today, a major translation company offered me a job at a rate that
> amounted to US$0.05 a word.
I was thinking, wow, that's lower than the agent I stopped dealing with
recently (because they only offered 5.5 yen a source ji for J>E) but read
again and thought, no, that can't be.
Is that 5 cents a target word, as in English word for J to E work? If so,
that is absurd.
Just read Alan's response to this thread and see that maybe you are talking
about the target word. Sheesh, I seemed to have turned down a good rate...
Regards
Joji Matsuo
Omaezaki, Shizuoka
Alfred S Chamass
>
>>
> As I mentioned, I'm willing to be flexible on rates to stay employed--
> although only within reason, but obviously someone is accepting these
> absurd rates. Perhaps there are a lot of newbies who don't know what
> the prevailing rates are or are willing to do anything to gain
> experience.
>
> Labor marketly yours,
> Karen Sandness
>
It is not only the ever increasing supply of newbies that is
exasperating the already absurd rates, but also the escalating supply
of in-house translators, who could not renew their temporary contracts
of employment, in addition to the supply of engineers and managers who
are forced to retire earlier.
Most of clients, who used to call by phone at least three times to
conjure me to take a job, only send an email offering job at
unbelievably shocking rates. Sometimes I don't even bother to reply
considering the energy and cost involved in answering to such spams.
Regards
--
Alfred Salib Chamass,
scha...@gmail.com
Michele Miller
> As I mentioned, I'm willing to be flexible on rates to stay employed--
> although only within reason, but obviously someone is accepting these
> absurd rates. Perhaps there are a lot of newbies who don't know what
> the prevailing rates are or are willing to do anything to gain
> experience.
>
> Labor marketly yours,
> Karen Sandness
I think you might be right Karen. Here in Oz, I've been offered some very
low rates over the past month or two, down as low as a ridiculous AUD0.05
per word recently for an urgent 10-page contract.
I was asked to give a quote on the contract and did so, but rang the client
(a law firm) when I'd heard nothing later that day. The client said she'd
had a quote for a lot less than mine. She told me how much and, she
quipped, not only is the translator an NES but he also has a law degree. I
declined the offer to match his quote--at 5c/word, knock yerself out!
The other thing I'm finding is I'm increasingly being asked to "proofread"
or "check" medical and legal translations. Nothing new in that and many of
us generally turn down this type of work, but it seems that agencies are
now deliberately using cheap translators to get a quick & nasty job done,
and then looking for someone to "proof" it at ridiculously low rates too,
with the aim of arriving at a final cost that would be considerably less
than asking an experienced translator to translate it in the first place.
Price, deadline,...................quality.
On two recent occasions I accepted assignments from 2 different agencies in
Japan because I was assured that the work was done by good NES translators,
but in each case I realised my mistake as the work contained too many
serious errors to be called good, and there were no translator's notes in
either case to indicate the translator was having problems. In the first
case, medical, I asked the agency to get the translator to redo it and get
their money's worth from him/her (and perhaps save the patient's life at
the same time) and then come back to me. In the second, I could see that
the translator had done a hasty job in a short time and not bothered to
re-read anything, so I gave the agency the option of extending my deadline
or finding someone else.
Lastly, I am finding that agencies and firms are demanding rush jobs but
are refusing to pay urgency rates--again, as you say Karen, because they
can invariably find someone to do it 'yesterday' at a price that undercuts
traditionally acceptable rates.
Michele Miller
Sydney, Australia
Andy Jones
Dear Translators,
Sorry to rain on the party here but you all seem to be seriously misled on several points.
"Since I have not worked for 5 cents a word
since my very first job in
1994, I'm wondering who is stupid or
desperate enough to accept this
rate. In fact this same company
paid me 10 cents a word in 1997.
I've told them repeatedly that I don't work for such
rates, but they
keep offering."
1. There is no such thing as a fair rate or a reasonable rate, etc. The only rate is the market rate and that is determined by what the customer will pay. It may seem cheap to you but the customer is the one that determines the price, not the agency. The agency has to offer a rate to the customer that they will accept. In an economic downturn when there is a slump in business activity, obviously there will be less work going around and therefore the customers will be looking to get cheaper rates. If the customer wants to pay 2 cents a word and they can get it, they will. The customer also will decide whether they are satisfied with the quality.
2. There are a number of factors contributing to the ongoing decline in rates. The first one may be temporary and maybe not, while the next three will all be ongoing.
A). Japanese Yen has appreciated 30-50% against many currencies including Australian, US, NZ, pound etc. so you should cut your rates to reflect that. To make the strong yen work for them, Japanese companies need to be able to buy cheaper imports. To give you an idea of how tough it is for them. "Japan's gross domestic product shrank at an annual pace of 12.7% in the last quarter of 2008 ... Sales to the US fell 52.9%!... Exports to China fell 45.1% while those to Asia dropped 46.7%. Japanese imports fell by 31.7% from a year earlier. These are historic and catastrophic numbers." (Source: The Privateer Issue 624, Page 7.)
B). Translation assisting technology can only get better thereby raising productivity.
C). There are many translators working in countries like the Philippines and India who can offer very competitive rates to Japanese buyers, and this will be further aggravated by the increasing number of young bilinguals coming on stream. Expect more of it.
D). As governments try to stimulate their economies the new money they are creating out of nothing, will flood into the economy but not in an even manner. Thus, whereas in our industry (as in all private-sector industry) rates are determined by what the (usually overseas) customer will pay, if you are a teacher or a doctor in Australia for example, rates are determined by what you can get by union action, out of the government, who is wrongheadedly trying to "stimulate" the economy anyway. The government just gets their money from taxes which is not a voluntary arrangement like a customer negotiating with a translation agency, but a relationship of compulsion - this is your tax bill now pay it or else - or they can print money or borrow it. This government money will tend to favor government union workers at your expense. As inflation rises under the effect of all the new money entering the economy, that does not mean you can pass those costs on to your customers but it will not stop the radiographers union etc. from demanding cost of living indexed pay rises from the government. When I was working flat out in translation eight years ago, I could earn easily 5 times as much as a teacher. I would frequently make AUD $3000 per week. Now, a teacher's pay has been rising but a translator's pay has been falling. This trend has been in place for the last 10 years and it will continue. The ratio will worsen.
I hope I haven't offended anyone but you had better face the reality. You have no choice. I have cut all my rates to stay in the market, but in real terms I am not losing anything because of Yen strength.
Michael Hendry
> Japanese Yen has appreciated 30-50% against many currencies including
> Australian,
> US, NZ, pound etc. so you should cut your rates to reflect that.
"Should" is not the best choice of word for my thinking. I started
freelancing with the yen at 70 to the (Aussie) dollar but of course when the
yen went to 110 to the dollar it was impossible for me to increase my rate.
I would have been out of a job very quickly. As a result, I've been earning
less and less per hour per year (ignoring productivity increases). Now that
the yen is back at around 70 to the dollar, and my hourly rate has returned
to what it was, you say I should reduce my rate...
Naaaah. That just doesn't make sense to me as an earner. Of course, if
that's the only way to make a living, then I might have to do it, but I
certainly wouldn't do it just to enable "the strong yen [to] work for [...]
Japanese companies..." Let them try or course, but don't just give it to
them...
Michael Hendry, in Newcastle Australia
Fred Uleman
> The only rate is the market rate and that is
> determined by what the customer will pay.
And what the buyer is willing to pay links to what value the buyer perceives. How important is the translation to the buyer? How much value is the translator seen to add? How much clout does the translator have? How much clout does the buyer have? All of these things go toward determining the price.
--
Fred Uleman
Warren Smith
Data point: A J-E patent translator I know very well spent today working at 20 cpw, 16 cpw on Friday. He is nearly never short on work. We must not let discussions like this one cause us to drop our prices. I see no price erosion. Dont panic.
W
Brian Watson
Brian Watson
http://picasaweb.google.com/brian.watson, http://tan-go-time.blogspot.com
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), brian-momotaro (skype)
Patrick Donelan
"C). There are many translators working in countries like the Philippines and India who can offer very competitive rates to Japanese buyers, and this will be further aggravated by the increasing number of young bilinguals coming on stream. Expect more of it."
I don't believe a word of this, although it seems to be a widespread view among translators. In the 3+ years I've lived in the Philippines I've never seen or heard of another J-E translator, and never met anyone that has. I have never seen a high school that teaches Japanese, nor met anyone that had learned Japanese in a Philippine high school. The only languages I have seen taught in the high schools here in the Philippines are English and Filipino. The outsourcing industry is very important to the Philippine economy, but it relies solely on English ability. Other Asian languages, e.g., Korean and Chinese, are likewise not being taught in schools here.
A few years ago out of curiosity I looked up Philippine-based J-E translators on both Translatorscafe and Proz. The total number was less than 5 (from memory). Two were a joke (self taught to Japanese Language Proficiency Test Level 3, beginners level). Another had absolutly outstanding credentials, but those credentials included a Ph.D from Tokyo University. I have no doubt that she can command premium rates in her specialist field. But her ability to translate will have been cultivated in Japan, not in the Philippines. So I see absolutely no evidence of young bilinguals coming on stream from the Philippines in the J-E translation field, now or in the future.
That is the situation in the Philippines. I do not know what the situation is like in India, but I can see no reason why it should be any different. I do some work for an Indian agency from time to time. It seems they recruit translators from the international freelance pool, at the going international rates. I presume that they have their sales force in Japan, incurring Japanese costs, their back-office work of recruiting translators, allocating work to them, dealing with invoices and payments, etc., is done in India, presumably at Indian costs, and their freelance translators will be also at the international rates. So their only cost advantage compared with Japanese agencies is the back-office work done in India at Indian cost levels. On one occasion a Japanese agency sent me a potential job and asked me to reserve time for it in case it was ordered. Later they contacted me to say it had not been ordered. Later, the Indian agency contacted me to do the same job (although I had to refuse as I could not meet their time requirements). My point here is that I charge the same rate for both the agencies (and one that I believe is typical of the international rate for that kind of work). Therefore although from the point of view of translation agencies work might seem to be going to agencies in India, that same work is channeled back into the same international pool of freelance translators in the end.
Regards
Patrick Donelan
Japanese to English technical translation
Quezon City, Philippines
Duncan Adam
On Apr 13, 10:04 pm, Karen Sandness <ksandn...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Such companies need to have such a hard time finding translators that
> their customers become disgusted with their low quality.
>
> Solidarity foreverly yours,
> Karen Sandness
translations when I think they are likely to be rubbish. One agency
wrote to me this weekend asking for proofreading of a job where the
customer had sent it back because of the low quality. I declined.
Actually overall i don't find there is huge pressure on rates. (Wasn't
there a thread on here recently about how strong our market was
lately?) Yes, a few large agencies - or at least one - do keep trying
to place work at low rates, like $0.10 per EN word, but I just say no.
Most are still paying proper rates (i.e. ones that I am prepared to
accept).
As Fred said, price is not determined solely by the buyer - it is
determined by the market clearing rate, at which buyers and sellers
collectively agree. Buyers might decide that 10 cents is all they are
willing to pay, but in that case I will go and do something else.
Duncan
Andy Lausberg
The other thing I'm finding is I'm increasingly being asked to "proofread"
or "check" medical and legal translations.
I'm currently doing a job that involves something that was originally offered to me as "proofreading" with a source character based rate.
I responded by offering a rate for proofreading (based on target wc), and also a rate for a "translation check + proofreading" (based on the source wc). In hindsight, I'm realizing I should have made a third option clear: "translation correction + translation check + proofreading".
To my mind, these each involve different tasks, skills, and amounts of work. I see translation checking as verifying the accuracy and 'correctness' of a reasonably good quality translation (where I would expect, perhaps, to have to modify maybe up to 25% of segments or sentences, etc).
On the other hand, I see translation correction as something dealing with poor or substandard translation work, involving the correction or repair of poor work, possibly modifying around 75% of segments or sentences.
Proofreading I consider to be something that by defintion only deals with the translated, target text; for proof reading, I only looking at the already translated material, seeing to it that it complies with standard or field-specific English usage, etc.
Another level I think I should also consider is "re-translation" where the work is so poor that the translation work has to be done from scratch.
My rationale is that unless I begin educating these clients - be they agencies or direct clients - they are just going to continue asking for something without really taking stock of what it is they are actually asking for.
This is also something that organizations like JAT should really be devoting energy towards, imho, because the awareness out there in the market place about what kind of work is involved in different dimensions of the process directly impacts our work as translators.
fwiw,
AL
--
Andrew Lausberg, B.A., Grad. Dip.
Korean, Japanese and English Translation
laus...@oceanreach.org
61-4-6656-9621 (Australia)
--
Fred Uleman
Going the other way, I note that employers have great difficulty educating job applicants about "experience" inflation on cvs (e.g., saying you played a pivotal role in a direct-mail advertising campaign when all you did was to put stamps on the 5,000 envelopes).
--
Fred Uleman
Karen Sandness
[snip]
Doreen Simmons
educated one of the offices I work in to stop giving me obvious machine
translations (e.g. in a CV, every sentence starts with 'It' because the
machine has been programmed to start every sentence with a subject!). I
simply rejected them out of hand and told the offender to get it
translated by a competent human being. (I can retranslate but not for
the retainer they pay me.)
FWIW,
Doreen surfacing briefly.
On 2009/04/14, at 23:31, Karen Sandness wrote:
> Good point. The translation industry seems to use "proofreading" to
> cover what would be three different jobs in the English-language
> publishing industry.
>
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp