navigation dial

[Brian Watson]

When I see ナビダイヤル next to a phone number, I assume that's short for 和製英語, navigation dial.

I think it means that when you call you have to navigate through menus using a touch-tone phone to get to the option you want. Especially since they list a separate number for PHS and IP phones.

Is there an English equivalent for this? Automated menu system?

Brian Watson
http://www.google.com/profiles/brian.watson
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), +1.425.341.FOTO (messages), brian-momotaro (skype)

[JimBreen]

On Jan 17, 9:24 am, Brian Watson <brian.wat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I see ナビダイヤル next to a phone number, I assume that's short for 和製英語,
> navigation dial.
>
> I think it means that when you call you have to navigate through menus using
> a touch-tone phone to get to the option you want. Especially since they list
> a separate number for PHS and IP phones.
>
> Is there an English equivalent for this? Automated menu system?

It's a specific service from NTT. See:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8A%E3%83%93%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4%E3%83%AB
or http://tinyurl.com/35ubda

Jim Breen

[Minoru Mochizuki]

“Voice Guidance” seems to be used for a hands-off system of the navigation for and telephony of automobiles.

 

As to ナビダイヤル, I would call it a Japanese word, not和製英語, because it is not an English word and it is not intended to be used in an English sentence or speech.

 

Minoru Mochizuki

[Brian Watson]

So calling it 'navigation dial' works, then, I guess...

Thanks, Jim.

Brian Watson
http://www.google.com/profiles/brian.watson
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), +1.425.341.FOTO (messages), brian-momotaro (skype)

2011/1/16 JimBreen <jimb...@gmail.com>

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[Steven P. Venti]

Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> wrote:
> So calling it 'navigation dial' works, then, I guess...

Perhaps, but I'd be careful here, since the page that Jim posted
states explicitly that that PHS and some IP phones are excluded. (See
the section with the heading ナビダイヤルへ掛けられない電話回線.)

Does the document describe the Japanese system or is it using the term
ナビダイヤル as a generic noun (ala kleenex) in a description of a
system to be used in North America? That would affect your word choice
considerably, I think.

HTH

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti
Mail: spv...@bhk-limited.com
Rockport Sunday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPpd20CgXE
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[DJB]

Without taking this thread too far off track, I have to say that I
disagree with the following.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:23:57 +0900
"Minoru Mochizuki" <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:

> As to ナビダイヤル, I would call it a Japanese word, not和製英語, because it
> is not an English word and it is not intended to be used in an English
> sentence or speech.

My understanding of 「和製英語」 is that these are words/terms that are
taken from English and adapted for use in Japanese.

Wasei-Eigo terms are not for use in English. The only time I ever heard of
this happening was on a Japanese variety TV show where Japanese people
would intentionally try to use Wasei-Eigo in a sentence to see if they
could be understood by native speakers of English.

English Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-eigo
Japanese Wiki: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%92%8C%E8%A3%BD%E8%8B%B1%E8%AA%9E

- Dan in Yokohama

-----------------------
Dan Burgess
canuck....@gmail.com

[Fred Uleman]

While I appreciate Dan's comment, I'm with Mochizuki on this.
It is 和製日本語. To even include "English" in the name is misleading.

Real "made-in-Japan English" would be terms such as sushi, tofu, and kanban that started out as Japanese and have since become English. Samurai. Geisha. The list goes on and on. They are now English. But they were created in Japan.

Just like "coup d'etat" might be called 仏製英語.

--
Fred Uleman, translator emeritus

[Shannon Itoyama]

I'm not really sure what gives you this impression, other than perhaps 

a desire to read the phrase literally. 

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/和製英語

I've never heard 和製英語 in reference to a word like "tofu" or "geisha," 

neither of which originally had anything to do with English.

I'd be interested in others' thoughts, as quite frankly I'm surprised to

hear that you disagree with Dan.

Shannon Itoyama

[Shannon Itoyama]

Sorry, I spoke too soon...it appears that both definitions are correct.

Still, though, I'm curious: do others share my impression that Dan's

definition is far more common, if not the only one that really matters?

If you can't tell, I've got more descriptive than prescriptive linguistic

predilections.

Shannon Itoyama

[Steven P. Venti]

Shannon Itoyama <shannon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I spoke too soon...it appears that both definitions are correct.

Can you give a citation for the definition that says it refers to
English words?

> Still, though, I'm curious: do others share my impression that Dan's
> definition is far more common, if not the only one that really matters?

I agree with you and Dan on this issue. The ja.wikipedia article unequivocally
states that 和製英語 are 英語の単語を組み合わせることにより造られた[. . .]外来語.
But insofar as this term is also applied to Japanese words derived from
languages other than English and seems to me to be almost symbolic of a
variety of misconceptions that ordinary Japanese hold about language in
general and foreign languages in particular, it's hard to say what
"really matters."

But that's just my two cents worth.

[JimBreen]

On Jan 17, 11:24 am, Shannon Itoyama <shannon.itoy...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've never heard 和製英語 in reference to a word like "tofu" or
> "geisha,"
> neither of which originally had anything to do with English.

Me neither. I have only heard/seen 和製英語 used
for katakana words constructed from English
words or word fragments. That's the definition
in all my references. 広辞苑 and 大辞林 give examples
in their entries, such as "オフィス‐レディー", "ナイター",
"テーブル-スピーチ", etc.

広辞苑's definition seems to capture it nicely:
"わが国で(英語の単語を組み合せて)作った英語らしく聞える語。"

Jim

[Shannon Itoyama]

Sorry, you’re right. I found no such definition after 

all. I saw 「また欧米には存在せず、日本独自のもの」

in the Wiki article and stopped reading. 

Shannon Itoyama 

[Brian Watson]

It's very explicit that the use is in Japan, and the very next line gives an alternate phone number for PHS and IP phones.

In addition, the end user for this translation is an internal corporate group that simply wants to know what the Japanese packaging says so they can decide how to create the North American packaging. They won't use 'navigation dial' in any final English product.

Brian Watson
http://www.google.com/profiles/brian.watson
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), +1.425.341.FOTO (messages), brian-momotaro (skype)

2011/1/16 Steven P. Venti <spv...@bhk-limited.com>

--

[Fred Uleman]

Dan's understanding is far and away the more common/standard understanding of 和製英語. And it is only contrarians such as Mr Mochizuki and myself who say, "but that's not English. It's 和製日本語. Time to get over the idea that it's English, folks. Time to stop complaining that it's bad English. It's not English. Think of it as new Japanese." Or words to that effect.

[Peter Clark]

I see the discussion in the English version of the Wikipedia article also shows that some people are confused.
I have always thought of wasei eigo as being English-like terms, created in Japan for Japanese consumption. So yes, it is Japanese, but the origins are English.
pasocon is probably the best representative. 'conpyuta' is gairaigo, personal computer is English, pasocon is wasei eigo (or Japanese). The reason for the distinction between Japanese and wasei eigo is also, I feel, pretty clear. There is also wasei chugokugo, wasei kankokugo, and probably wasei zurugo. There are also recent coinages in Japanese, created to reflect changes in society and new concepts introduced, often from other countries.
 
sushi, geisha, tofu, etc., are not wasei eigo, they are Japanese words being used in English. "Fujiyama" may be a candidate for beisan nihongo :).
 
Peter Clark

[Jens Wilkinson]

I would agree with you also. A word like "nabi-daiaru" made be created
from English words, but it is describing a specific thing (a service)
and not a generic term. So the same would go with "karaoke." It may be
made partly from English words, but it's a service developed in Japan
(I think) so it wouldn't be wasei-eigo. Neither would something like
"walkman," which though created from English terms, is a proper noun.

--
Jens Wilkinson
Neo Patwa (patwa.pbwiki.com)

[Tom Donahue]

Brian Watson writes:

> In addition, the end user for this translation is an internal corporate
> group that simply wants to know what the Japanese packaging says

"Navi Dial" is what NTT uses.
http://www.ntt.com/navidial_e/

--
Tom Donahue