shisan vs. zaisan

[Mari Hodges]

Hello all,

Is there a difference in English for 資産 and 財産? I have a document of a
company that does both 投資事業組合財産の運用　and 投資事業組合の資産運用。Would
these both be investment partnership asset management? Or can I
differentiate them in some way.

Regards,
Mari Hodges

[Kirill Sereda]

The difference between "property" and "assets"?

Kirill

[kanji saito]

経済のことは全くの素人なので、専門の方が答えるまでのつなぎとして。

プラスの財産を資産とよび、マイナスの財産を負債と呼びます。
財産はその総合
http://okwave.jp/qa791409.html

財(ざい)・財産(ざいさん)は、個人や団体に帰属する経済的価値のあるものの総
称である。資本として利用されるものは資産という。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B2%A1%E7%94%A3

これを見る限りでは、財産には借金も含まれるような気がします。

斉藤　完治

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[Andreas Baranowski]

The distinction appears to be that between asset management (decisions
concerning the investment of financial assets, i.e., cash, deposits,
and securities, for gain) and property management (decisions
concerning the disposition of physical property, e.g., real estate,
for gain). The partnership aspect is irrelevant. The distinction
between assets and property is.

HTH

[Fred Uleman]

Given that property is considered a subset of assets by some, I wonder if this could be termed the difference between financial assets and non-financial assets. I do not think it can (because　I think 信頼 can be considered a 財産), but let me ask anyway.

--
Fred Uleman

[Minoru Mochizuki]

Although I am neither an economist or an accountant, the question is
challenging to me and a thought provoking one to me so that I would like to
attempt an answer to it based on my brief research.

According to a book (図解による法律用語辞典　自由国民社 ISBN4-426-40106-2),
資産 and 財産 are defined as follows:

財産とは、現実的利用価値のあるもの、あるいは換価性のあるものを意味し、動産、
不動産、債権、無体財産権、営業上の秘訣などの事実関係が含まれる。財産の用語
は、主として財産法的計算の考えの下で用いられ、これに対し、資産とは損益計算の
考えの下での会計学的概念であって、収益に資するものを意味し、費用と同義語的意
味をもつ。したがって資産は費用の現在形態であり、貸借対照表の資産表示はいまだ
資産として消費されない価値の表示である。

In other words, 財産 is what a person (including a legal person) owns
according to the property law, while 資産 is a part of 財産 that can be used
(or has been used but still remaining on the balance sheet) for repayment of
debts (including investments). In other words, 財産 is a legal term
(property law), while 資産 is an accounting term.

In the meanwhile, Black's Law Dictionary defines:

Property - That which is peculiar or proper to any person; that which
belongs exclusively to one. In the strict legal sense, an aggregate of
rights which are guaranteed and protected by the government.

Assets - Property of all kinds, real and personal, tangible and intangible,
inter alia, for certain purposes, patents and cause of action which belong
to any person, association, corporation, or estate that is applicable or
subject to the payment of or her or its debts.

Comparing the definitions of the two Japanese terms and the two English
terms, I draw conclusion that 財産 and資産 should be translated as Property
and Assets respectively. In the meanwhile, I would say the expressions, 財産
の運用 and 資産運用, are both doable and both are similar to each other
although there is a slight difference in nuances.

Minoru Mochizuki

-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mari Hodges
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 5:11 AM
To: Honyaku
Subject: shisan vs. zaisan

[Andreas Baranowski]

Not quite. Property can but need not be an asset. In theory, for
accounting purposes, an asset must have an economic value to qualify
as such (balance sheets cannot carry assets valued at zero). Property,
however, may be worthless and can still be property. 信頼, which you
mention, i.e., the standing or reputation enjoyed by a company, let’s
call it Company A, would qualify as an (intangible) asset on the
balance sheet of its acquirer Company B in the form of goodwill for
which B will have paid a premium over the net asset value of Company
A. The reason why 信頼(goodwill) qualifies to appear on the balance
sheet is that Company B expects (and this expectation is accepted by
the audit firm that checks their boos) to derive an economic benefit
from the 信頼 enjoyed by Company A. Accounting aside, for an investment
company these terms take on a completely different mean. Asset
management stands for the activity of investing and managing cash and
financial values while property management means the activity of
managing (that is, operating as a business) non-financial values such
as condominiums and shopping malls.

[Mari Hodges]

Thank you all for your great contributions on 資産 and 財産. If I understand
correctly, the consensus is that they are both asset in English in this
context.

Best regards,
Mari Hodges

[christopher blakeslee]

Hi Mari,

Sorry for the late reply. It may be a good idea to distinguish the two, depending on the context, etc., in which case you could use wealth management for 財産 and asset management for 資産. I would not use property management for 財産運用, since the English implies tangible assets only, but the Japanese does not. HTH

Chris

2009/11/6 Mari Hodges <ma...@marihodges.com>

--
chris blakeslee
cpbl...@gmail.com

[Andreas Baranowski]

On Nov 7, 7:17 am, christopher blakeslee <cpbla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mari,
>
> Sorry for the late reply. It may be a good idea to distinguish the two,
> depending on the context, etc., in which case you could use wealth
> management for 財産 and asset management for 資産. I would not use property
> management for 財産運用, since the English implies tangible assets only, but the
> Japanese does not. HTH
>
> Chris
>

> 2009/11/6 Mari Hodges <m...@marihodges.com>

>
>
>
>
>
> > Thank you all for your great contributions on 資産 and 財産. If I understand
> > correctly, the consensus is that they are both asset in English in this
> > context.
>
> > Best regards,
> > Mari Hodges
>
> > > Is there a difference in English for 資産 and 財産? I have a document of a
> > > company that does both 投資事業組合財産の運用 and 投資事業組合の資産運用。
>
> > > Would
> > > these both be investment partnership asset management? Or can I
> > > differentiate them in some way.
>
> --
> chris blakeslee

> cpbla...@gmail.com


Wealth management? Sorry, no. Wealth management is an investment
advisory service geared a high net worth individuals that typically
includes tax planning, often across jurisdictions. In Japan it is not
normally referred to as 財産運用 but ウェルスマネジメント. I rest my case.

[Dwight Van Winkle]

This Wikipedia article describes financial asset management v.
physical asset management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_management

I don't know what your terms are meant to describe, but it's possible
they include intangible assets such as intellectual property rights.
In that case, "physical asset management" would not work, even if this
term is commonly used and understood as Wikipedia says.

Nor would "property management," at last to my ears, because "property
management" is often used to describe the business of maintaining
rental properties and collecting rents from tenants, for a landlord.
"Physical asset management" seems more sophisticated than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_management

I doubt this helps - does the company have a website that describes
what it does? Are these terms used in a standard way in Japan?

Dwight Van Winkle

> normally referred to as 財産運用 but ウェルスマネジメント. I rest my case.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Dwight Van Winkle]

Actually, "physical asset management" seems like infrastructure, which
I doubt your company has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAS_55

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Dwight Van Winkle]

It may be that the distinction is between "unyou" and "shisan unyou."
With "shisan unyou," the partnership might give general investment
instructions to the company, and the company would buy and sell
partnership assets in accordance with the instructions. "Zaisan no
unyou" could be a different relationship, in which the company manages
the property owned by the partnership. This might be more like real
estate property management. Intellectual property could also be
managed, for example by licensing or collection of royalties.

This company seems to do this kind of thing -

http://www.eaglepartners.co.jp/business.htm

I'm just guessing - best to see if the company's website defines the
terms.

Dwight Van Winkle

[Mari Hodges]

Continuing on this thread, could I differentiate them by calling 財産の運用asset
management (since it most likely includes intangible property) and 資産運用
investment management?
The company amazingly has no website, but here is more context:
2 purposes of this company are
- 投資事業組合財産の運用、管理並びにその受託業務
-　投資事業組合の経理及び資産運用に関する業務の請負

Mari Hodges