shironegi

[Julian Wayne]

How do we say "shironegi" in English? This may seem like a simple
question but I can't seem to find a definitive answer on the Net.

Julian Wayne

[Christopher Girsch]

>
>
>
>How do we say "shironegi" in English? This may seem like a simple
>question but I can't seem to find a definitive answer on the Net.
>

Julian:

I think we call them Scallions - or Japanese Scallions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scallion

I am no expert - just did some poking around and that is what
I learned.

Chris on a windy but sunny and pleasant day in Yamanashi

[Matt Stanton]

In American English, "negi" is "scallion", and in British English it's
"spring onion".

So "shironegi" are called white scallions or white spring onions.

[Alan Siegrist]

Julian Wayne writes:

> How do we say "shironegi" in English? This may seem like a simple
> question but I can't seem to find a definitive answer on the Net.

You are quite right. It is not a simple question. Translating the common
names of plants, especially vegetables, is very difficult. The common names
vary from place to place and a certain common names may refer to larger or
smaller categories of species or cultivars and the common names may overlap
or correspond only roughly between languages.

In this case, I refer to Japanese Wikipedia:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8D%E3%82%AE

Here, _shironegi_ refers to one of either _fukaya negi_ or _shimonita negi_,
which are both cultivars of _Allium fistulosum_ which is known in English
variously as the green onion, scallion, Welsh onion, bunching onion, spring
onion, ciboule among other names.

However, all of these English names are the equivalent of negi, not
shironegi.

The _fukaya_ and _shimonita_ cultivars are apparently somewhat well known
even outside of Japan, so you could use one of these names. However, I have
not found a similar English name that refers only to these _shironegi_
cultivars and not the _aonegi_ types.

If you are talking about Japanese cuisine, you could just use _shironegi_.

I would need to know the purpose and audience of the translation to make a
good recommendation as to what is the best way to translate it.

Regards,

Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
AlanFS...@Comcast.net

[Alan Siegrist]

Matt Stanton writes:

I am afraid that this logic just does not work.

The most common and familiar name for _negi_ in American English is probably
"green onion." It would be quite perplexing to the poor reader to call
_shironegi_ a "white green onion."

[Matt Stanton]

> However, all of these English names are the equivalent of negi, not
> shironegi.

So, like I said, you just put "white" in front.

I'm not making this up. The term "white spring onion" really does
exist, at least in England anyway.

[Matt Stanton]

> I am afraid that this logic just does not work.

It does. In America they're called "white scallions". I just checked.

> The most common and familiar name for _negi_ in American English is probably
> "green onion." It would be quite perplexing to the poor reader to call
> _shironegi_ a "white green onion."

Green onions are "aonegi". "shironegi" are white spring onions or
white scallions.

[Alan Siegrist]

Matt Stanton writes:

> > I am afraid that this logic just does not work.
>
> It does. In America they're called "white scallions". I just checked.

Er, how exactly did you "check"? You sound very confident about this,
despite evidently not living in America.

I don't deny that some people here might use the name "white scallion" for
something similar to _shironegi_. For whatever reason, according to Google,
the term "white scallion" seems to be common in English descriptions of
Chinese and Vietnamese cooking.

But Google also tells me that the term "white leeks" is twice as popular as
"white scallions."

The term "white spring onion" certainly does appear, but it seems to be much
less common than "white leek." These "white spring onion" hits are not
limited to the UK at all, since many of them come from the US.

An interesting bit of trivia that I found is that some "green onions" can be
grown with the edible portion covered by soil so that these portions do not
turn green but remain white. I guess this is how they grow at least some of
the "white leeks" out there. This may not be true for all of them, though.

> > The most common and familiar name for _negi_ in American English is
> > probably "green onion." It would be quite perplexing to the poor reader
> > to call _shironegi_ a "white green onion."
>
> Green onions are "aonegi". "shironegi" are white spring onions or
> white scallions.

I am afraid your logic seems a bit facile here. The term "green onions" is
quite common for any of the long (non-bulbous) varieties of onion and they
may have more or less green and white parts depending on the cultivar. I
think "green onions" is something of a false friend to _aonegi_, because the
former is much broader of a term, encompassing both _shironegi_ and _aonegi_
as well as other unrelated but allied species.

It may not be unreasonable to map _aonegi_ to "green onion" since they are
certainly a type of green onion, but the opposite does not work.

I still cannot give a definitive answer to Julian Wayne, absent further
explanation of the purpose and audience of the work.

[Marc Adler]

Matt Stanton wrote:

>> I am afraid that this logic just does not work.
>
> It does. In America they're called "white scallions". I just checked.

Checked with who?

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22green+onion%22&btnG=Search+Images

The only kind of scallions I had ever heard of until this thread were
scallions of the "rap-" variety.

A brief glance in my dictionary tells me that "scallions" are 春タマネ
ギ、ニラネギ、ワケギ (note: _not_ ワキゲ) in Japanese, none of which are
アオネギ.

> Green onions are "aonegi". "shironegi" are white spring onions or
> white scallions.

As someone who often does the grocery shopping (in the US) using
shopping lists written in Japanese (by my wife), I can assure you that
I've never gotten a complaint for buying "green onions" where ねぎ was
called for on the list.

--
Marc Adler
Austin, TX

[Terry Gallagher]

From Wikipedia:

 

"The leek (Allium ampeloprasum var. porrum (L.) J. Gay) is a vegetable belonging, with onion and garlic, to the Alliaceae, the onion family. "

"A scallion, also commonly known as green onion or spring onion, is associated with various members of the genus Allium that lack a fully-developed bulb."

 

In my experience, leeks are somewhat similar to scallions, but you would never confuse the two. Leeks are much thicker and less tender.

 

Searching around the Web indicates to me that while negi or aonegi are generally what we in the U.S. call scallions or green onions, shironegi are actually leeks, or perhaps even "white leeks." As Alan suggested, some vegetables are sometimes kept white by piling dirt on them as they grow. Germans love their asparagus that way.

 

Hope helps,

Terry Gallagher

Eastham MA

 

 

[Mika Jz]

Terry, I'm not as picky as Marc's wife, but I would never substitute leeks for 白ねぎ。

 

Marcさんの奥さんへ：

アメリカのスーパーでgreen onionsを買うと、ちょっと根っこがついてるでしょう？

あれを捨てずに土に植えると、わりと簡単にのびてきます。

細めに育ったところで刈れば「おねぎ」として使えますよ。

厳密には別物なのかどうか、まではよくわかりませんが、まあいっか、ってところで。

 

Mika Jarmusz

Salem, Oregon USA

 

[Mika Jz]

Oops, my mistake, I missed the "never" in his last sentence.

Marc Adler wrote: I can assure you that

[Alan Siegrist]

Marc Adler writes:

> As someone who often does the grocery shopping (in the US) using
> shopping lists written in Japanese (by my wife), I can assure you that
> I've never gotten a complaint for buying "green onions" where ねぎ was
> called for on the list.

I would definitely agree with Marc that "green onions" is a very good
functional equivalent of ねぎ, at least in the US.

But when you get into sub-varieties of ねぎ such as 白ねぎ, all bets are
off. I asked my Japanese wife about 白ねぎ but she did not know exactly what
they were.

I suppose we really need to know why the OP is interested specifically in
the 白ねぎ and not just ねぎ in general.

[Doreen Simmons]

> Doreen interposes: Leeks (in Japanese, poro-negi) are different in the
> shape of the leaves; which are separate and fold over one another. All
> the negi varieties have circular leaves/skins in section. When the
> late Barbara Adachi was the Japan Times food columnist I had an
> extensive correspondence with her on this subject. One of the problems
> with New World nomenclature was that settlers gave a familiar name to
> a new variety they found. So a 'Welsh onion' had never come from
> Wales.

On 2007/05/14, at 2:10, Terry Gallagher wrote:

> From Wikipedia:
>  
> "The leek (Allium ampeloprasum var. porrum (L.) J. Gay) is a vegetable
> belonging, with onion and garlic, to the Alliaceae, the onion family.
> "
> "A scallion, also commonly known as green onion or spring onion, is
> associated with various members of the genus Allium that lack a
> fully-developed bulb."
>  
> In my experience, leeks are somewhat similar to scallions, but you
> would never confuse the two. Leeks are much thicker and less tender.

Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp

[Richard Sadowsky]

I would have to concur that shironegi are leeks, while negi (aonegi) are
scallions or spring onions. Leeks are fatter and are used in a different
way from scallions in Japanese dishes. (I used to run an organic grocery.)
--
Richard Sadowsky
Awaji Island, Japan

[Mika Jz]

そういえば、文脈が洋食の場合は
「白ネギのスープ」などの例のように

洋ねぎ・ポロネギ・西洋ねぎ＝leeks　のことを
（そう、白いから！）白ネギと呼ぶこともありえますね。

もちろん和食に使う白ねぎとは、別物。

あと、土寄せで白くするのですが、
こんな記述もあります：
http://alic.vegenet.jp/yasaijoho/yasai/0505/yasai1.html
品種も昔の白ねぎ、青ねぎ用だけでなく、
栽培の仕方によっては両方に使える中間の品種も出てきました。

とすれば、訳文で栽培法に言及するという手もあるかも。
－－－－－－－－－－
ちなみに、アメリカで買ったgreen onionの
根を植える話がちょっと中途半端だったので付け加えますと、
日本の青ネギは小口切りにすると
コロコロと小さな輪になりますが、

こちらで売ってるgreen onionは
味はネギでも、やたら大振りに良く育っていて
豆腐にのせたり味噌汁に浮かせるにしても
口径が大きすぎて、見栄えでがっかり。
（凝った料理はしないからこそ．．．）
この根を捨てずに植木鉢に植えると、
あれよあれよと伸びた時分には、なぜかちょうどいいネギになります。
必要な分だけハサミで何センチか切って使えるので便利です。
日本のスーパーのネギの根のきれはしでもできます。

はい、余談でした．．．．

清水美香　Mika Shimizu Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA

[Michele Miller]

Hi Richard,
(Missed the earlier part of the thread) All this onion talk is
interesting. I now agree that shironegi are leeks too. I had
(erroneously?) always thought that a naganegi was a 'Japanese leek', so I
just had a look at the GG and it says the naganegi is "a long variety of
Welsh onion; a ciboule". I looked up 'welsh onion' (a name we don't use in
Australia as far as I know) at wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_onion. I now understand what a Welsh
onion is, and there's reference to Japanese negi there too, but not
naganegi...
Looking forward to leek and potato soup, a popular winter warmer in our
household!
Michele

[Matt Stanton]

I found pictures of "shironegi" and "aonegi" at the following URL:

http://www.naganogas.co.jp/ryouri/food/negi/index.shtml

If you buy "negi" in a supermarket in the West, you invariably get
"aonegi", which I guess is why "negi" are often called "green onions"
in the States.

I know that this topic is complex, but I would still say that "white
spring onion" or "white scallion" would be the best translations.
After all, it's a scallion/spring onion, but it's, er, well, white.
And I've seen "shironegi" sold in England as "white spring onions."

By the way, I don't think "shironegi" are leeks. "shironegi" and
"aonegi" are cultivars of the same plant, Allium fistulosum, while
leeks are Allium ampeloprasum.

[Michael Hendry]

Just to throw another vegetable (maybe the same vegetable) into the pot, how
about shallot? That's what I buy at the supermarket to put in my miso soup.

Michael Hendry, glad to not have to translate the word naganegi today...

[Matt Stanton]

> Just to throw another vegetable (maybe the same vegetable) into the pot, how
> about shallot? That's what I buy at the supermarket to put in my miso soup.

No, shallots are like little (regular) onions, but shaped kind of like
a sweet potato.

[Julian Wayne]

> I suppose we really need to know why the OP is interested specifically in
> the 白ねぎ and not just ねぎ in general.

Actually, this wasn't for a job. I was just jotting down my wife's
recipe for "buta-no-kakuni" in English for a non-Japanese-speaking
British friend. I don't know how standard my wife's recipe is, but
after lightly frying the pork, she puts it in a big pot of boiling
water together with the green portion of a "shironegi" and some
ginger, and stews it for a bit.

Julian Wayne

[Claire Tanaka]

On 14/05/07, Julian Wayne <cubu...@occn.zaq.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> Actually, this wasn't for a job. I was just jotting down my wife's
> recipe for "buta-no-kakuni" in English for a non-Japanese-speaking
> British friend.

*cue sound of hundreds of honyakkers worldwide, falling off their
chairs, comedian-style*

Well if that's all it is then surely leeks, spring onions, anything
will do, really.

Claire Tanaka

[Michael Hendry]

I said:
> Just to throw another vegetable (maybe the same vegetable) into the pot,
> how about shallot? That's what I buy at the supermarket to put in my miso
> soup.

To which Matt Stanton replied:

> No, shallots are like little (regular) onions, but shaped kind of like
> a sweet potato.

Yes, shallots ARE spring onions.

http://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/shallots_info.html
" Australians are often confused about what a shallot actually is, as we
commonly refer to spring onions this way."

<g>

The point is that these words need to be grounded in context. If it were an
article for an Aussie consumer, then I _might_ be right. If it were an
article for anyone else in the world, you _might_ be right. If you put one
of those Allium cepa var. aggregatum syn. Allium ascalonicum on most
Australian's plates, they would guess they were an onion.

Michael Hendry, in Newcastle Australia

[Julian Wayne]

> > Actually, this wasn't for a job. I was just jotting down my wife's
> > recipe for "buta-no-kakuni" in English for a non-Japanese-speaking
> > British friend.
>
> *cue sound of hundreds of honyakkers worldwide, falling off their
> chairs, comedian-style*
>
> Well if that's all it is then surely leeks, spring onions, anything
> will do, really.

I must say, I take great offense at your belittlement of my wife's
recipe for buta-no-kakuni! (Just kidding.)

Julian Wayne

[Michele Miller]

Mmmm Matt, shallots shaped like a sweet potato? Nah, doesn't work for me
I'm afraid.
Hey, this thread gives a whole new meaning to "knowing your onions"!
Michele

<snip>

[Matt Stanton]

Julian,

Wow, it seems weird to buy shironegi if you're just going to use the
green bit. It must be a very high-end buta-no-kakuni! But I know that
in Tokyo some shops only sell shironegi, so maybe that's why.

Anyway, if the recipe only uses the green bit, I think all you need to
do is write "spring onion". Don't use "leek". If the recipe wanted
leeks, it would say "poronegi" or "younegi".

[Richard Sadowsky]

The green portion??
I was going to say that leeks are used for their white portion chopped into
one-inch sections, for example, while spring onions are used mainly for the
green portion, sliced very thinly, although no offense is taken when some
white is used as well. Also, naganegi is shironegi. But you wouldn't use
just the green part of shironegi and not the white. If the green part is
not too hard, you could use that, too.
Good thing this is not for a job. ;-)

[Matt Stanton]

Michele:

> Mmmm Matt, shallots shaped like a sweet potato? Nah, doesn't work for me
> I'm afraid.
> Hey, this thread gives a whole new meaning to "knowing your onions"!
> Michele

Well, the photo on Wikipedia backs me up on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallots

[Michele Miller]

Voila, it all depends on where we live and what the various types of onion
are called in each place. Here in Australia, a shallot is a long thin part
white, part green thing with no 'bulb' and hollow 'leaves', while a sweet
potato is a great bumpy purplish-red thing that can weigh up to a couple of
kilograms. Leaves the satsumaimo way behind, but I see what you mean with
the French shallot.
I found this at http://www.sonic.net/~alden/Onionsgreen.html

green onion = scallion = bunching onion = shallot (in Australia) = spring
onion (in Britain) = Chinese onion = stone leek = cibol

Michele

-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

[Matt Stanton]

I think my head's going to explode.

Anyway, perhaps some good will come of all this. I'll be able to list
"onions" as one of my semmon bunya now.

On 5月14日, 午後6:42, "Michele Miller" <mille...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Voila, it all depends on where we live and what the various types of onion
> are called in each place. Here in Australia, a shallot is a long thin part
> white, part green thing with no 'bulb' and hollow 'leaves', while a sweet
> potato is a great bumpy purplish-red thing that can weigh up to a couple of
> kilograms. Leaves the satsumaimo way behind, but I see what you mean with
> the French shallot.

> I found this athttp://www.sonic.net/~alden/Onionsgreen.html

>
> green onion = scallion = bunching onion = shallot (in Australia) = spring
> onion (in Britain) = Chinese onion = stone leek = cibol
>
> Michele
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>
> Of Matt Stanton
> Sent: Monday, 14 May 2007 7:20 PM
> To: Honyaku E<>J translation list
> Subject: Re: shironegi
>
> Michele:
>
> > Mmmm Matt, shallots shaped like a sweet potato? Nah, doesn't work for me
> > I'm afraid.
> > Hey, this thread gives a whole new meaning to "knowing your onions"!
> > Michele
>
> Well, the photo on Wikipedia backs me up on this:
>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallots- 引用テキストを表示しない -
>
> - 引用テキストを表示 -

[Julian Wayne]

Thanks for all the help on this. Although my original question wasn't
directly rated to a job, I have had trouble translating the names of
foodstuffs in the past, and it was nice to nail down a few of the
little blighters.

Also, although it has nothing to do with food, I was gratified to see
somebody using the word "rapscallion". This is one of my favorite
words, ranking alongside "whippersnapper" and "shenanigans"!

Regarding the use of only the green portion of the shironegi:
apparently, before the main stewing stage, the "kusami" of the pork
needs to be removed, and this is why it is "pre-stewed" in a pot of
boiling water containing the green portion of the shironegi and some
ginger. After this, only the pork is transferred to another pot for
stewing, and the other stuff is just thrown away. Using the white
portion of the shironegi for this purpose would be a waste. I imagine
that there are alternatives to shironegi but, for example, aonegi
wouldn't release enough extract...apparently. (I hope nobody calls my
bluff on this.)

Anyway, thanks again.

Julian Wayne

[James Sparks]

Marc Adler wrote:
> The only kind of scallions I had ever heard of until this thread were
> scallions of the "rap-" variety.

I'm surprised, since many US recipes call for scallions, although I
admit that my understanding of the differences between the varieties was
less clear before this thread.
Getting back to translation, it may be worth noting that ラッキョウ are
normally labeled "pickled scallions" in the California markets where I
find them.
And I will second Alan's statment that the vast majority of Americans
call ねぎ green onions. I remember when I was learning Japanese I
sometimes got confused, because in English, "onion" with no modifier
usually refers to たまねぎ (with modifier), while ねぎ with no modifier
usually refers to "green onion" (with modifier).

James Sparks, who eats green onions in the Kentucky style, by biting
them raw, eating the white and the green, preferably with pinto beans
and cornbread

[Jim Breen]

On 2007年5月14日(月) "Michael Hendry" wrote:

> Yes, shallots ARE spring onions.
>
> http://www.greenharvest.com.au/Plants/shallots_info.html
> " Australians are often confused about what a shallot actually is, as we
> commonly refer to spring onions this way."

and on 2007年5月14日(月) "Michele Miller" added:

> Voila, it all depends on where we live and what the various types of onion
> are called in each place. Here in Australia, a shallot is a long thin part
> white, part green thing with no 'bulb' and hollow 'leaves',

It does indeed depend on where you live, including in Australia. Calling
spring onions "shallots" in Australia is very much a Sydney/New South Wales
thing.

Here in Australia's cultural capital, a shallot is the small brown/purple
clustered style of onion as seen in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallots
(Our local Safeway labels spring onions "shallots", but their HQ and database
is in Sydney, so we forgive them. They know not what they do.)

Cheers

Jim
--
Jim Breen
Honorary Senior Research Fellow
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/