無等級材

[mik...@gmail.com]

五　無等級材（日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいう。）　その樹種に応じてそれぞれ次の表に掲げる数値とする。

 

How would you translate 無等級材and the text in the parenthesis?

Again, the whole text is available online:

https://www.mlit.go.jp/notice/noticedata/pdf/201703/00006531.pdf

 

Thanks for your pointers!

 

Mika Jarmusz

 

[Herman]

If you are translating 木材 as "lumber", you could say

V. Ungraded lumber (lumber which has not been graded according to
Japanese Agricultural Standards)

Herman Kahn

On 2/21/23 09:21, mik...@gmail.com wrote:
> 五　無等級材（日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいう。）　その樹種に応
> じてそれぞれ次の表に掲げる数値とする。

>
> How would you translate 無等級材and the text in the parenthesis?
>
> Again, the whole text is available online:
>
> https://www.mlit.go.jp/notice/noticedata/pdf/201703/00006531.pdf
> <https://www.mlit.go.jp/notice/noticedata/pdf/201703/00006531.pdf>
>
> Thanks for your pointers!
>
> Mika Jarmusz
>

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[SHERYL HOGG]

Ungraded lumber?

On Feb 21, 2023, at 11:21 AM, mik...@gmail.com wrote:



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[Dale Ponte]

There's also "unstamped," used pretty interchangeably with "ungraded," apparently.

Dale Ponte

[mik...@gmail.com]

Ungraded sounds like not yet graded, or 未等級.

Unstamped is equivalent to ungraded only to the eye of the end consumer. To those who are involved in the process of grading and stamping, which is our target audience of this source document, the difference is night and day. Unstamped suggests 等級合格品であるがスタンプ機を通すところには至っていない, meaning done grading but not yet stamped.

 

Ungradable, I’ve considered micky-mousey, strongly suggests rotten or bug-infested wood that should be discarded.

I suppose 無等級材is not even the same as ＪＡＳ格付品以外（「非JAS品」）which likely includes everything currently for sale in the Japan market, hopefully mostly consisting of 五and 六 both.

 

六 前各号に掲げる木材以外で、国土交通大臣が指定したもの その樹種、区分及び等

級等に応じてそれぞれ国土交通大臣が指定した数値とする。

 

How about:

5. If grading is not possible under the JAS Standard, the species-specific values are defined in the following table.

 

五　無等級材（日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいう。）　その樹種に応じてそれぞれ次の表に掲げる数値とする。

 

Souce:

https://www.mlit.go.jp/notice/noticedata/pdf/201703/00006531.pdf

 

 

[seigo]

I'm curious about Mika's choice of the word "lumber" over "timber" for 木材 in this context.
I have used and would use "timber" for basically the same reasons outlined here (unless perhaps if I'm translating specifically for the US and Canadian market):

https://www.writerscentre.com.au/blog/qa-timber-vs-lumber/
https://www.hitchcockandking.co.uk/h-k-news/whats-the-difference-between-timber-and-lumber/
https://civiltoday.com/civil-engineering-materials/timber/224-timber-lumber-definition-types

Seigo Mabuchi

[mik...@gmail.com]

Yes, this translation is facing more towards the US.

 

Timber

In the UK and Australia, this term is used not only for the felled tree, but also for sawn wood products or boards that will be used for construction purposes.

Lumber

The product of timber cut into boards tends to be referred to as ‘lumber’ in the United States and Canada. If, however, the boards and sawn wood products are of five inches diameter or greater, they can be referred to as ‘timbers’.

To the above, quoted from the page shared by Seigo-san, I may add that timbers of five feet diameter or greater, or un-debarked logs of such greatness were once referred to as “toothpicks” in Oregon – but those works of nature are much harder to come by nowadays, and I digress.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164972260093

 

Mika@Oregon

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[Herman]

On 2/22/23 11:30, mik...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> How about:
>
> 5. If grading is not possible under the JAS Standard, the
> species-specific values are defined in the following table.
>
> 五　無等級材（日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいう。）　その樹種に応
> じてそれぞれ次の表に掲げる数値とする。
>
>

無等級材 does not imply that grading is not possible under the JAS Standard.
It means that the lumber in question has been produced and sold without
having been assigned a JAS grade by a JAS-certified grader (manufacturer).

Herman Kahn

[mik...@gmail.com]

That's interesting.
日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいうin the parenthesis is pretty clear that the JAS Standard as currently established is lacking the provisions (definitions, testing methods, etc.) for the kinds of lumber to receive JAS grades. In other words, this section can be understood to cover varieties of engineered wood that are yet to be incorporated into the JAS Standard.

If it is to mean, as you say, "that the lumber in question has been produced and sold without having been assigned a JAS grade by a JAS-certified grader (manufacturer)", then the text in the parenthesis should use wording such as: 日本農林規格の等級付けを受けていない木材をいう

Mika

.

[Dale Ponte]

Perhaps "non-graded" could be of use to you.  

Example:  "The native lumber provision in the state code specifically allows “non-graded lumber,” although it carries a caveat that “the materials must be of sufficient quality to be adequate for the purpose intended and must adhere to the provisions of these Codes.”

https://greenmainehomes.com/blog/home-grown-homes

Here it's synonymous with "mill run" (boards):  "Our base pricing is for our “mill Run” boards, this is non-graded lumber. It will come in all grades and is called mill run because it’s just what comes off the mill." 

http://www.roughsawnlumber.com/lumber.html

Here's one from Japan published by AGRIS:  "The MOR (A) values in both sugi lumber were above the value of standard strengths of non graded lumber as established by the Ministry of Construction notice."

https://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=JP2005005454

Dale

[Herman]

On 2/23/23 11:59, mik...@gmail.com wrote:
> That's interesting.
> 日本農林規格に定められていない木材をいうin the parenthesis is pretty clear that the JAS Standard as currently established is lacking the provisions (definitions, testing methods, etc.) for the kinds of lumber to receive JAS grades. In other words, this section can be understood to cover varieties of engineered wood that are yet to be incorporated into the JAS Standard.
>
> If it is to mean, as you say, "that the lumber in question has been produced and sold without having been assigned a JAS grade by a JAS-certified grader (manufacturer)", then the text in the parenthesis should use wording such as: 日本農林規格の等級付けを受けていない木材をいう
>

I think you are misinterpreting the phrase 日本農林規格に定められていない木材.
The same lumber types/species that are listed under 無等級材 are also listed
earlier in the documents where the various JAS grades are specified, so
the interpretation that this refers to a different kind of lumber can be
ruled out.

In this context, as a clarification to 無等級材 (等級の無い材), 日本農林規格に定められていない木材
indicates 日本農林規格による等級が定められていない木材, not
日本農林規格では、このような木材については定めがない、というような木材 (i.e.
the JAS grade of this lumber has not been specified, not that the JAS
does not specify how to grade this kind of lumber. The JAS specifies
generic grading methods applicable to all lumber).

Herman Kahn

[mik...@gmail.com]

先方に確認したところ、ここの無等級材は
「日本農林規格に定められていない木材」というよりも、やはり
「日本農林規格の等級付けを受けずに流通している木材」でした。
等級を受けずには流通できない品目もあるようですが、木材はその類ではありません。
「だったらなんで『に定められて』になってるのよ？」と文句を言いたいところですが、
原文が意図しているとされる解釈もガンバレばできないことはありません。

というわけでungradedでもnon-gradedでも正解でした。
いやー、ちょっとした大仕事になっちゃいましたが
皆さんご意見ありがとうございました。

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Herman' via Honyaku E<>J translation list <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 9:18 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 無等級材

--

[Herman]

On 3/7/23 12:46, mik...@gmail.com wrote:
> 先方に確認したところ、ここの無等級材は
> 「日本農林規格に定められていない木材」というよりも、やはり
> 「日本農林規格の等級付けを受けずに流通している木材」でした。
> 等級を受けずには流通できない品目もあるようですが、木材はその類ではありません。
> 「だったらなんで『に定められて』になってるのよ？」と文句を言いたいところですが、
> 原文が意図しているとされる解釈もガンバレばできないことはありません。

法令用語では、例えば、「木材については、日本農林規格に定める」というが、もしそうであれば、定められていないことはあるべからず、ということを前提としてみれは、（言い換えれば、規格など、法令相当なものが不完全でもありえることを前提としないと）、
「無等級材（日本農林規格に定められていない木材）」はやはり、規格が不完全のではなく、木材が不完全であることを示すはずである、という解釈か、ものの見方がその背景にも潜在していると思います。

Herman Kahn