Surpassing or Exceeding: Noun
Warren Smith
In a patent claim: 閾値超え判定手段
Threshold value XXX evaluating means.
The closest I can come up with is "threshold value transcendence evaluating
means," but this sounds somewhat mystical...
Thanks.
Warren
Alan Siegrist
> In a patent claim: 閾値超え判定手段
> Threshold value XXX evaluating means.
I would probably go with something like:
Means of determining if threshold value has been exceeded
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Richard VanHouten
rewording. "Means of evaluating when a threshold value is exceeded" or
something along that line.
Matthew Schlecht
I find:
"...monitoring the evaluation signal with reference to surpassing or falling short of a threshold..."
from US6,895,934
http://tinyurl.com/y3n9ol6
Matthew Schlecht
Kirill Sereda
>>he closest I can come up with is "threshold value transcendence evaluating means," but this sounds somewhat mystical...
That's very spiritual :) You can try "threshold crossing", "threshold breach", or "threshold violation" (used by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, etc). Here, just like the terms "exceed" and "surpass" in English, 超え means simply "cross" (in any direction), not necessarily "become greater than".
Kirill
Warren Smith
To be parallel with all of the other elements in the claims (and to be
consistent with my normal style), I wanted to use the form of "Noun Verbing
Means," if at all possible. Kirill gave me the key, pointing out that
"crossing" works much better than "transcendence."
Thanks again for your help.
Warren
Mark Spahn
Kirill Sereda writes:
Here, just like the terms "exceed" and "surpass" in English, 超え means
simply "cross" (in any direction), not necessarily "become greater than".
Hmmm. When speaking of numerical values, "A exceeds T" or "A surpasses T"
always means that A>T (where T refers to a threshold value). Right?
Checking my understanding against a dictionary, 超え could mean either (1)
cross (from one side of a river to the other) or (2) be greater than (上回る).
So could 超え also refer to a quantity A changing from a value greater
than a threshold value T to a value less than T? If that is what is meant
here, "transition" or "crossing" might be a good translation.
閾値超え判定手段 would be a "threshold crossing (or transition)
determination means", that is, a means that detects whether, since last
time, a measured value A has made a transition either from <T to >T, or from
>T to <T.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
Minoru Mochizuki
"means for judging values outside of threshold boundaries."
It may be too lengthy for some purposes. Then we can abbreviate it so long
as we are sure that there will be no misunderstanding.
Minoru Mochizuki
Kirill Sereda
>>Hmmm. When speaking of numerical values, "A exceeds T" or "A surpasses T" always means that A>T (where T refers to a threshold value). Right?
I would say that, in general, this is true, but in some cases, especially when we are dealing with thresholds, the opposite may sometimes be true. For example:
"It should be noted that, in the context of this specification, the term "exceed" in regard to a threshold value means to meet a specified criterion. Generally, to exceed a threshold herein is to have a numeric value greater than or equal to the threshold, although other interpretations (such as greater than, or less than, or less than or equal to, depending on the context) may be applicable and are deemed to be within the scope of the invention." (see U.S. Pat. No. 6,810,285 to Benjamin D. Pless et al. of NeuroPace Inc.).
And:
"The term surpassing, and variations of the term (i.e., surpass, surpassed, or the like), may be defined to mean reaching, exceeding, falling below, or the like." (see US 2009/0317161 A1 to Huy Vo, Hussam E. Eassa, Michael L. Lamontagne, Brian Stormont, Gregory J. Klein, and others)
>>閾値超え判定手段 would be a "threshold crossing (or transition) determination means"
Exactly, that's what I was suggesting: "threshold crossing determination means". I am not sure about "threshold transition"; to me, the latter might imply that the threshold moves, shifts to a different position.
Kirill
菊地健一
つの可能性があります。
（１）注目の値が閾値を超える瞬間を検出する（そして、それをトリガとしてある動
作を行わせる）
（動的な検出 (detection or monitoring as to when a value of interest
crosses a threshold value)
(threshold-value crossing detection means)
（２）ある値が与えられたとき、その値が閾値よりも高いかどうかを判定する
（静的な検出(determination as to whether a given value is higher than
a threshold value)
(means of determining whether a value is higher than a threshold
value)
どちらの場合も実際にはコンパレータが用いられるでしょうから、大差がないように
も思われますが、訳文として
はきちんと区別すべきであるように思います。文脈からどちらであるのか（cross な
のか higher than なのか)を判断
できるのではないでしょうか。
Minoru Mochizukiさんのご意見：
>If that is your concern, we can translate閾値超え判定手段 as:
>"means for judging values outside of threshold boundaries."
確かにそのような場合もありえるかもしれませんが（シュミットトリガは２つの閾値
がありますから）
「閾値超え判定手段」を単純に解釈すれば、閾値は一つであって、その一つの閾値を
超えるか
どうかを判定するということなのではないでしょうか。その場合には 閾値は
threshold boundaries
ではなく単に a threshold value だと思います。
（閾値超え判定手段 is not supposed to be means of judging whether a value
(not values but a specific
given value) is outside a range (defined by threshold boundaries) but
supposed to be means of determining
whether a given value is higher than a single threshold value.
There is a device designed to evaluate a given value with respect to two
reference values.
However, 閾値超え判定手段 does not seem to be the case.)
菊地健一
Kirill Sereda
>>注目の値が閾値を超える瞬間を検出する（そして、それをトリガとしてある動
作を行わせる）
Yes. As my US patent examples show, the expression "V surpasses/exceeds X" may include the case "V=X".
>>ある値が与えられたとき、その値が閾値よりも高いかどうかを判定する
English usage can be generalized like this:
If it is said that a value V "exceeds" or "surpasses" a threshold T, it means that |V|>=|T|, where |V| and |T| are absolute values.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value
I am sure the way Japanese engineers (I mean, real engineers) think is not much different from the way American engineers think.
Kirill
Steven P. Venti
> If it is said that a value V "exceeds" or "surpasses" a threshold T,
> it means that |V|>=|T|, where |V| and |T| are absolute values.
I don't think that this covers situations where the lower threshold is a
positive value, but such instances are clearly allowed for in the
passages you quoted in your other message.
>other interpretations (such as greater than, or less than, or less
>than or equal to, depending on the context) may be applicable and are
>deemed to be within the scope of the invention."
FWIW
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Steven P. Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com
No electrons have been harmed, truths distorted, nor personalities
defamed in the posting of this message.
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菊地健一
>Kikuchi-san (hello there!) writes:
Hello Kirill and everybody.
Kirill Sereda
>>if V "exceeds" or "surpasses" a threshold T, it means that |V|>=|T|, where |V| and |T| are absolute values
Better: V "exceeds" or "surpasses" a threshold T means either:
(a) that V>=T, or
(b) |V|>=|T|
Kirill
Tom Donahue
> "The term surpassing, and variations of the term (i.e., surpass, surpassed, or the like), may be defined to mean reaching, exceeding, falling below, or the like."
That's interesting. I've seen engineers use 超える to mean "reach", for example
when an error occurs if the number of files exceeds the file limit. By
which they
mean that an error occurs if writing a file would cause the number of files to
exceed the limit. Which is how I translate it, because the error guarantees
that it will never happen.
Also interesting that English doesn't have a single verb that is the antonym of
exceed, in the sense of rising above. You have to say "fall below".
--
Tom Donahue
Wataru Tenga
"There is no established opposite to the word exceed, and it is
quite often suggested that one is needed. We are gathering
evidence of the word deceed 'be less than', but it has not yet
reached our dictionaries."
I also found some unofficial usages of subceed with this meaning.
Wataru Tenga
Kichijoji, Tokyo
菊地健一
>Also interesting that English doesn't have a single verb that is the antonym of
>exceed, in the sense of rising above. You have to say "fall below".
(1)超える = to exceed
(2)越える (pronounced the same as 超える) = to cross (to either side)
菊地健一
Mark Spahn
> V "exceeds" or "surpasses" a threshold T means either:
> (a) that V>=T, or
> (b) |V|>=|T|
>
> Kirill
Wow. This is a surprise. You are reporting that, in engineering contexts,
"exceed" and "surpass" mean "be greater than _or equal to_" (emphasis
added).
Well, in writing a patent you get to define you own technical terms,
but this is a surprising departure from the ordinary meaning of
"exceed", which a desktop dictionary defines as
1 to go or be beyond (a limit, ...) ["to exceed the speed limit"]
2 to be more than or greater than; surpass; outdo ["to exceed one's
expectations"]
(So if "exceed" means ">=", is there some one-word verb than means ">"?)
Kirill Sereda
>> You are reporting that, in engineering contexts, "exceed" and "surpass" mean "be greater than _or equal to_"
Kirill
菊地健一
(a) exceed が英語としてどのような意味をもつのか
(b) 閾値超え判定手段 における「超え」がどのような意味なのか
がごちゃごちゃになって議論されています。
議論を「閾値超え判定手段」における日本語の「超え」がどのような意味なのかに
戻ってみますと、
先に述べましたように２つの可能性があります。
（１）（値が）「超える」という動作を表している (the value increases beyond
the threshold)
（２）（値が）「超えている」という状態を表している (the value is greater
than the threshold)
（１）の場合は crossing detector であって、（２）の場合は comparator なのだ
ろうと思いますので
手段としての役割は異なってくるように思います。なので、前後の文脈で判断すべき
だと思ったのです。
また、私の語感では、日本語の「超え」には どなたかのご意見のような "reach a
threshold" や
"greater than or equal to a threshold" の意味では使われないように思います
が、他の日本語ネイティブ
の方のご意見をうかがいたいと思います。
(Note that in the case of (1), the value can be equal to the threshold in
the middle of the
transient process. However, even in this case, the value does not (cannot)
remain in the static equilibrium
state in which the value is equal to the threshold. That is, 超える in
transition to a value greater
than the threshold value excludes the state in which the value is statically
equal to the threshold value.)
菊地健一
菊地健一
私の投稿は右側の改行位置がでたらめに乱れてしまいます。
元のデータはきちんと同一の位置で改行されているのに！
どなたか、対策を教えてください。
よろしくお願いいたします。
菊地健一
Steven P. Venti
> 大変に初等的な質問で、ごめんなさい。
> 私の投稿は右側の改行位置がでたらめに乱れてしまいます。
> 元のデータはきちんと同一の位置で改行されているのに！
> どなたか、対策を教えてください。
Judging from the appearance of your message, it looks to me as if your
carriage returns were made after the 92nd character. I recommend that
you read the Posting Guidelines for Honyaku, which include the following:
7. Wrap your lines at 70 characters
Add a hard carriage return after every 70 characters or so. Many email
clients can be set to do this automatically. The advantage of doing this
is that your text won't break in strange places (like in the middle of a
word) and people can quote portions of your note without creating ugly
alignment problems.
http://groups.google.com/group/honyaku/web/posting-guidelines-for-the-honyaku-mailing-list
Steve Venti, on behalf of
---------------------------------------------------------
Pam Ikegami, Michael Hendry, Steven Venti
Administrators of the Honyaku mailing list
Honya...@yahoogroups.com
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菊地健一
そうだったのですか！
とても助かりました。
ありがとうございます。
菊地健一
Mark Spahn
I stand corrected.
I should have written "in _some writer-defined patent_ contexts".
Even so, it is still a surprise that "exceed" could include the meaning
"or equal to" in any context at all. This strikes me as an abuse of
the ordinary meaning of words. I imagine it happened because the
patent writer realized that in some passages "be greater than or equal to"
would be preferable to "exceed", and rather than change each instance
of "exceed" to the appropriate wording, it was easier to modify
a single sentence to change the meaning of "exceed" to
"greater than or equal to" rather than its more restrictive
dictionary meaning of "greater than".
That is, this is an example of how far patent writers will allow
themselves to go in redefining terms for their convenience.
And thanks to 菊地健一さん for pointing out the crossing detector/
comparator distinction. Maybe a persnickety patent writer could
use 超える for "exceed" and 越える for "cross", but would most
readers be aware of this distinction?
Kirill Sereda
My main point was that the verbs "exceed/surpass", when applied to threshold, include both "greater than" and "lower than". An illustration of how Japanese engineers think can be found in US 2007/0005211 A1, where Japanese inventors use a definition involving absolute values, just like I did yesterday.
Equality is not included in the definition of "exceed/surpass" in most cases. However, the same definition I gave yesterday (which includes equality) is used in at least one other US application: US 2007/0213629 A1.
Incidentally, speaking of English words referring to "excursion, drop below a threshold", no one has mentioned "undershoot" yet.
Kirill
Mika Jarmusz
>（１）（値が）「超える」という動作を表している (the value increases beyond the threshold)
>（２）（値が）「超えている」という状態を表している (the value is greater than the threshold)
（１）の場合の「超え判定」とは、flagすることですね？
> Maybe a persnickety patent writer could use 超える for "exceed" and 越える for "cross", but would most readers be aware of this distinction?
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us