丁落 chouochi ?

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w...@hadamitzky.de

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Jul 8, 2021, 11:08:34 AMJul 8
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Can someone help me finding the reading and the meaning of the word 丁落? I have been looking for this word in vain in printed and in online dictionaries.

Some time ago I jotted down
丁落 chouochi  Herabstufung (Qualität) [downgrade (quality)].

Unfortunately I had neglected to add the source where I found this term, it's reading and meaning.
Note that the word might possibly also be read teiochi, chouraku, or teiraku.

If you know this word or know where to find it, I would be grateful for a hint.

Best regards
Wolfgang Hadamitzky

John Stroman

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Jul 8, 2021, 11:40:52 AMJul 8
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Wolfgang,
I'm not sure if this will help, but 落丁 is a term used in printing to mean all or part of a "missing page(s)" in a printed product. See:https://www.koei-printing.co.jp/glossary/ranchyou_rakuchyou for the definition in Japanese. That would certainly relate to a loss of quality. The only entries online I could find for 丁落 were in Chinese or were a few advertisements in Japanese selling slightly damaged items.(such as a TV stand) at a discount, but Google would not connect to those pages (Error 404). There are a couple of Japanese patent applications that contain the term  折丁落下 such as   JP1993131776 "丁合機の折丁落下タイミング調整方法" which apparently means the same thing.

Good luck in your search.

John Stroman


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Warren Smith

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Jul 8, 2021, 11:41:08 AMJul 8
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My impression is that this is for a page to go missing (from a book), right?

In the opposite order 落丁 , it is a "missing page" (a noun), but in the order you have it, it is the verb form, right?

 

Does that work in context?

 

I had the below, on the last page of the book, in a translation I did a couple of days ago, right after the printing information and immediately preceding the "don't make a copy without permission" notice:

 

Warren

 

 


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Hadamitzky Wolfgang

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Jul 8, 2021, 12:38:30 PMJul 8
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John,

your finding of "a few advertisements in Japanese selling slightly damaged items.(such as a TV stand) at a discount"  supports the meaning I jotted down in German "Herabstufung (Qualität) [downgrade (quality)]". I probably found the word in one of the advertisements you mention. Thank you so much for the confirmation that 丁落 is neither a typo or a phantom. Editors of dictionaries probably do not check advertisements when building their corpus of keywords.

If we find the reading for 丁落 we might consider adding the term to our Kanji Dictionary.

Best regards
Wolfgang

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Motohiro Kojima

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Jul 8, 2021, 6:56:05 PMJul 8
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Wolfgang Hadamitzky様

品質に関係があるとすれば、もしかすると、

甲乙丙丁(こう・おつ・へい・てい)

と関係があるかもしれないですね。

昔は、たとえば、学校の成績などをこの4文字を使って表し、
「甲」が最高、「丁」が最低でした。ABCDグレードのような感じです。
「丁」より落ちると、不合格です。
http://www.jlogos.com/d063/8609997.html

2021.07.09 07:51:38
===================================
小島基弘 <mthr...@imoduru.net>

Wolfgang Hadamitzky

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Jul 9, 2021, 6:12:39 AMJul 9
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Dear Motohiro Kojima,

Your references confirm my belief that the reading てい for the kanji 丁 would be more logical than the reading ちょう. According to the general rule that the kanji contained in compound words are usually to be read uniformly on or kun, the reading of the word 丁落 could be expected to be ていらく rather than ちょうおち as in the original source from which I copied the word some time ago.

But since language does not always follow logical laws, these are only assumptions. A confirmation is still pending.

In any case, many thanks for your hints.

Best regards
Wolfgang Hadamitzky


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Herman

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Jul 9, 2021, 2:04:54 PMJul 9
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On 7/9/21 3:12 AM, Wolfgang Hadamitzky wrote:
> Dear Motohiro Kojima,
>
> Your references confirm my belief that the reading てい for the kanji 丁
> would be more logical than the reading ちょう. According to the general
> rule that the kanji contained in compound words are usually to be read
> uniformly /on/ or/kun/, the reading of the word 丁落 could be expected
> to be ていらく rather than ちょうおち as in the original source from
> which I copied the word some time ago.
>
> But since language does not always follow logical laws, these are only
> assumptions. A confirmation is still pending.
>


If I saw 丁落 in a context suggesting that it must mean something like
"downgrade", I would think that 下落 was intended.

Conversely, if ていらく is the intended reading、I would assume 低落.

There is also 凋落 (ちょうらく), which is also similar in meaning to
"downgrade".

Herman Kahn

Hadamitzky Wolfgang

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Jul 12, 2021, 9:50:31 AMJul 12
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The matter seems to be more complicated than I thought in the beginning. Not only are the reading and meaning of the term 丁落 unclear, but even the orthography on which both depend. When I find a solution, I will share it here.

Thank you Herman for your reflections, and Warren for your quick response.

Wolfgang Hadamitzky



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Warren Smith

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Jul 12, 2021, 2:05:11 PMJul 12
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And thank you for your dictionary, which I used when I was a student.

 

I saw it on a friend's bookshelf about a year ago.

 

Made me happy.

 

W

 


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Hadamitzky Wolfgang

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Jul 13, 2021, 11:13:12 AMJul 13
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Warren, 

I am always glad to hear that someone still remembers our Kanji Dictionary. You must have been one of the first users of this 1996 old-timer. Thank you.

Wolfgang

Warren Smith

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Jul 13, 2021, 11:29:55 PMJul 13
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Ah well... I must have been mistaken about using your dictionary as a student. By 1996 I had already been translating full-time for more than a decade. (I had thought that the "Halloween Dictionary" [so nicknamed because of its orange and black cove] was an early printing of the excellent dictionary that you and Mark published.)

 

On the other hand, my karate instructor (on whose shelf your dictionary sits) was very impressed that I have been in communication with you (and -- much more often -- with the famous Mark Spahn)!

 

Warren

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/honyaku/C33AAE40-0BC4-42C6-A7FA-C41957717898%40hadamitzky.de.

John Stroman

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Jul 14, 2021, 6:38:26 AMJul 14
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Warren, 
FWIW, Spahn and Hadamitzky (1996) still sits proudly on my minuscule bookshelf (down from 5 full 6' bookcases in its prime), and I still prefer it to looking up kanji online because of its innovative organization. The jacket is yellow with a large orange banner on the spine, so your memory of Halloween is partly correct. It's also great for a few bicep pumps once you get out of your chair!
John Stroman 
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