lesbian term of affection

[Brian Watson]

I'm reviewing a translated short story set in a post-apocalyptic world, 

and a key figure in it is a woman who envisages herself as a young high school 
girl who is hoping, despite the virus that killed everyone else on the planet, to meet

an older girl who will "treat me the way an older student at a girls' school treats an

adorable younger student, who will console me, adore me, love me...."

This is not a platonic fantasy, either. Her visions of the older girl become quite graphic

at points.

In the original, the fantasy older girl is referred to as お姉様. The translator gave up on

any suitable English term and uses oneesama throughout, but I think this will be jarring

to readers who are unfamiliar with shojo manga (and yes, shojo is now in the OED).

I don't want to go the literal route, as it would hint at an incestuous relationship.

'Beloved' is out, because that is what the heroine longs to be. What terms would

others think feasible within this context? Darling? Angel? Treasure?

Brian Watson
http://www.google.com/profiles/brian.watson
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), brian-momotaro (skype)

[Peter Tuffley]

Why should the terms of affection/endearment be any different from those that would be normal in a heterosexual relationship?

Peter

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Peter Tuffley, MA, MNZSTI

Japanese to English Translator

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[Steven P. Venti]

Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the original, the fantasy older girl is referred to as お姉様.

[snip]

> I don't want to go the literal route, as it would hint at an incestuous
> relationship.

I'm not sure that you need to be all that worried about that. Sister is pretty
commonly used as a term of endearment, and unless you are also going to
entertain the possibility that Catholics will think that she is in love with a
nun and African-Americans will think she is African-American, you might just
give yourself a break here and do whatever it takes to make sure that the
intended meaning is clear from the context.

Way back in the late 60's, in a song called Triad, David Crosby asked the
musical question "Why can't we go on as three?" and to support his assertion
that non-traditional relationships were not entirely unheard of, he sings:
"Sister-lovers, water-brothers, and in time, maybe others."

Hell, I was a pimply-faced white kid from the suburbs, but even I knew what he
was talking about. <g>

I suppose there are a hundred different ways it could be phrased, but "my
beloved sister," "my darling sister," or any other similar combination seem
workable to me.

FWIW

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com

Oh, you go down to the bank so you can cast your bait,
If you're looking for a catfish, mama, you ain't got long to wait.
Catfish got whiskers and a cute little grin,
But you never can tell where a catfish has been.
--Danny O'Keefe
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Susan Yoshimura]

I'd say just using darling would be the safest route to go, and would probably work throughout. Again, the scene is set and readers do know that the girl is older (and not a sibling) so the point that she is older does not necessarily have to be restated again and again. If reading the original, the connotations of oneesan would just be older girl, not sister, I believe. And there really is not a term for older girl that works, that I can think of anyway!
Sounds like some fun work!
Susan Yoshimura
 

[Herman]

On 3/18/2012 16:22, Peter Tuffley wrote:
> Why should the terms of affection/endearment be any different from those
> that would be normal in a heterosexual relationship?
>

For the sake of accuracy/completeness of translation, because one of the
senses of onee-sama is a bull dyke or butch lesbian, though of course
these cannot be used in the second person "Oh, butch lesbian". "Oh.
Mistress" may be a reasonably close equivalent, though I would probably
stick with "onee-sama".

Herman Kahn

[David J. Littleboy]

From: "Steven P. Venti" <spv...@bhk-limited.com>

>>>>>>>
Way back in the late 60's, in a song called Triad, David Crosby asked the
musical question "Why can't we go on as three?" and to support his assertion
that non-traditional relationships were not entirely unheard of, he sings:
"Sister-lovers, water-brothers, and in time, maybe others."
<<<<<<<

Hey, you're right! But Ms. Slick's cover is the one that made it famous, or
at least is stuck in my head.

>>>>>>>>>
Hell, I was a pimply-faced white kid from the suburbs, but even I knew what
he
was talking about. <g>
<<<<<<<<<<

Yep, even this scrawny city kid got the idea.

Still, I'd be cautious translating between "sister" in English and imoto/ane
or variations thereof in Japanese. In English, "sister" is an equality
relationship, in Japanese, it's an inequality relationship. Very different
things.

David J. Littleboy
See that kid sitting back of the bar
He's picking up a storm on a Martin guitar
That poor fool thinks he's gonna be a star
He's just another loser like me.
Tokyo, Japan

[Jeremy Whipple]

Has anyone mentioned "Big Sister"?

Jeremy Whipple

Setagaya-ku, Tokyo

[Brian Watson]

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

I'm waffling between using 'my mistress' and 'my darling', even though the latter has somewhat of diminutive connotation.

A term like 'bull-dyke' is neither romantic enough nor appropriate for a high-school fantasy setting.

And I really want to avoid using romanized Japanese in an English context.

[John Stroman]

Brian,

It seems to me that "mistress" might confuse because it is also used
for a "kept woman" outside of marriage, as well as for a dominatrix. I
also agree that darling is diminutive.
Perhaps you can focus on the connotation of oneesan as a guide,
teacher, experienced leader, (role model?) who is introducing a new
way of life to the heroine. Would a term like mentor or chaperone
suffice?
John Stroman

[Nora Stevens Heath]

The more I hear about the woman's vision of her ideal lover, the more I
think Brian's original suggestion "angel", as someone who looks out for
another and cares for him or her, might well be a good one to throw in
the mix--not for every instance of お姉様, perhaps, but every now and
then. "Heroine" may well work, too, as someone this woman looks up to
for support and guidance (like a high-school 先輩).

Nora

--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/

[Terry Gallagher]

One suggestion: You might go with "girlfriend," which has considerable currency as a form of address.

Terry Gallagher

Eastham, MA USA

[Mari Hodges]

What about "my love"?

Mari Hodges

Nora

--

[Brian Watson]

I'm leaning toward 'my angel-mistress' as a candidate.

It combines the romantic use of the singular first person possessive with the connotation of a protector and a sense of respect. Yes, I get that 'mistress', especially when used alone, can also refer to the other woman in an affair, but it is also a term of respectful address.

[Alan Siegrist]

Brian Watson writes:

 

I'm leaning toward 'my angel-mistress' as a candidate.

 

It combines the romantic use of the singular first person possessive with the connotation of a protector and a sense of respect. Yes, I get that 'mistress', especially when used alone, can also refer to the other woman in an affair, but it is also a term of respectful address.

 

Has anyone mentioned ‘goddess’?

 

Regards,

 

Alan Siegrist

Carmel, CA, USA

[seresarah]

All of these to me are getting too far away from the literal meaning
of お姉様. "My lady" just occurred to me...?

-Sarah Tangney

On Mar 18, 3:09 pm, Brian Watson <brian.wat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm reviewing a translated short story set in a post-apocalyptic world,
> and a key figure in it is a woman who envisages herself as a young high
> school
> girl who is hoping, despite the virus that killed everyone else on the
> planet, to meet
> an older girl who will "treat me the way an older student at a girls'
> school treats an
> adorable younger student, who will console me, adore me, love me...."
>
> This is not a platonic fantasy, either. Her visions of the older girl
> become quite graphic
> at points.
>
> In the original, the fantasy older girl is referred to as お姉様. The
> translator gave up on

> any suitable English term and uses *oneesama* throughout, but I think this

> will be jarring
> to readers who are unfamiliar with shojo manga (and yes, shojo is now in
> the OED).
>
> I don't want to go the literal route, as it would hint at an incestuous
> relationship.
> 'Beloved' is out, because that is what the heroine longs to be. What terms
> would
> others think feasible within this context? Darling? Angel? Treasure?
>

> Brian Watsonhttp://www.google.com/profiles/brian.watson

[Shiki @NC]

I went to a girls school in Japan and called elder students XXのおねえさん(as in 田中のおねえさん）、in place of 先輩. Everyone had her special おねえさん to look up to; some even had a crush on her own classmate! Anyhow, in some context, sempai and kohai are both hard to translate, sometimes just not possible or necessary to specify whether he/she is elder.

Wonder if using the character's name would work, such as "my dear Ms. Hanako," in some cases? If it's Ms. Tanaka, it sounds like her teacher, but if Ms. First name, it's less so, yet sounds like she's talking about someone older, or for her to look up to (憧れの人、even her classmate)?
 
Shuko Jacobs

[Charlie Milroy]

I think it really depends on the target audience. If it is explicit that the readership are aware that the story is set in Japan then I don't see a problem with using 'oneesan' and having an explanatory note. Some things just don't translate that well from Japanese. Also it will help set the scene a bit. If it was a patent you'd probably have to go literal. If you want to translate it don't just go for the closest translation go for the most natural term. 'Memoirs of a Japanese prostitute' would have the same ring to it. With novels it is important to remember that it is being read in English so has to stand alone from any knowledge of Japanese language and shouldn't assume any particularly advanced knowledge of Japanese culture. The written word is a totally different medium from anime so some notes are fine, but like anime over use of notes detracts from the immersiveness of the experience. I would definitely recommend asking a friend with almost no knowledge of Japanese language and culture and see what they say as there is probably no-one who posts on this mailing list who is qualified to answer the question (unless they already consulted a non Japanophile).

Charlie Milroy

---

Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:37:24 -0700
From: dhdd...@gmail.com

To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: lesbian term of affection

I went to a girls school in Japan and called elder students XXのおねえさん(as in 田中のおねえさん）、in place of 先輩. Everyone had her special おねえさん to look up to; some even had a crush on her own classmate! Anyhow, in some context, sempai and kohai are both hard to translate, sometimes just not possible or necessary to specify whether he/she is elder.

Wonder if using the character's name would work, such as "my dear Ms. Hanako," in some cases? If it's Ms. Tanaka, it sounds like her teacher, but if Ms. First name, it's less so, yet sounds like she's talking about someone older, or for her to look up to (憧れの人、even her classmate)?
 
Shuko Jacobs

[Benjamin Barrett]

Dream hero/ine is another variation.

The word heroine is not used a lot anymore (somewhere between waitress and aviatrix), but it is still widely understood and has an extra touch of femininity that might work well.

Benjamin Barrett
Seattle, WA

[Eleanor Goldsmith]

Brian Watson wrote:
> I'm leaning toward 'my angel-mistress' as a candidate.

 

It’s a tricky one, for sure. I think the hyphenation option is a good idea. Along the same lines, I was wondering whether you might not also be able to use “my sister-protectress” as an additional option, if お姉さん comes up a number of times, just for a bit of variety.

 

Just a thought – hope it helps, along with the excellent suggestions from everyone else.

 

Best wishes,

 

Eleanor Goldsmith

Auckland, NZ

[officesonomama]

Brian,

Have you contacted any English-native lesbians who are familiar with Japanese lesbian jargons for advice?

Off the top of my head, how about Tokyo Wrestling?

URL: http://www.tokyowrestling.com/eg/aboutus/index.html

Email: con...@tokyowrestling.com

Sonoko Enami

[Katy Bridges]

Great discussion, but I would go with angel or even just leave it at
one-san. If you're going to go with English for the term I think angel
conveys all that needs to be said. But I also think that you, the
original translator or author could define one-san for the reader for
a nie effect. Sounds like a good story.

Katy Bridges

[Masako Sato]

原文の「お姉様」には、一般人よりも格が上という響きがあります。「おねえさん」にはそれがありません。

Tangney  さんの my lady というのが意味としては近いのではないかと思います。

Masako Sato

[Brian Watson]

2012/3/22 Masako Sato <msa...@gmail.com>

Tangney  さんの my lady というのが意味としては近いのではないかと思います。

The problem with 'my lady' or 'milady' is it implies a greater age. The short story's heroine is envisioning someone just a few years older than herself, who could be within the same all-girls high school. I suppose it's possible that a freshman in high school could romantically think of a senior as her lady but to me it seems to push it...

[Steven P. Venti]

Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose it's possible that a freshman in high school could romantically
> think of a senior as her lady but to me it seems to push it...

Just out of curiosity, how are you approaching the translation? Are you trying
to create a dialog that it is not necessarily Japan-centric (It sounds to me
like you are.) Or are you making it clear that this is a story about a
Japanese character and is illustrative of how a Japanese person thinks and
feels?

If the latter, you might as well go with a literal Onee-sama, as others have
already suggested.

But if the former, then you are stuck relying on your own instincts, and you
might as well just go with them, because no matter what you do, someone is
going to disagree and think they know better than the translator how it should
have been worded.

That's just the nature of the beast. It's also a large part of the reason that
there is no such thing as a "definitive" translation, especially when it comes
to fiction.

Dante called it Beatrice. Beethoven called it his Immortal Beloved. C.G. Jung
called it the Anima/Animus. Personally, I usually just use the name of the
last person I was infatuated with. (I guess that makes me of Dante's ilk. <g>)

So, if it were you, what would you call it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com

All that glitters is not gold; all who wander are not lost;
All who babble are not fools; all that's caught is not tost.
--With apologies to J.R.R. Tolkien
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Masako Sato]

Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> さん wrote:
> I suppose it's possible that a freshman in high school could romantically
> think of a senior as her lady but to me it seems to push it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oniisama_e...#The_Sorority

かなり古くなりますが、池田理代子作「おにいさまへ」という漫画には、今でいう百合系やレスビアンの要素が多分に詰まっております。主人公の通う高校にはソロリティという特権的な団体があり、そこのメンバーは「～の君」と呼ばれています。英語版 Wiki ページでは、一部を除いて「Lady～」と紹介されています。特殊な世界の話としては、それほど無理でもないのかなと思います。

lesbian, my lady で調べますと、myladyhome.com など見つかります。中身は知りませんが。 

ご参考まで。

Masako Sato

[Wendy Ebersberger]

On Mar 18, 4:09 pm, Brian Watson <brian.wat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm reviewing a translated short story set in a post-apocalyptic world,
> and a key figure in it is a woman who envisages herself as a young high
> school
> girl who is hoping, despite the virus that killed everyone else on the
> planet, to meet
> an older girl who will "treat me the way an older student at a girls'
> school treats an
> adorable younger student, who will console me, adore me, love me...."
>

Have you considered the term "confidante"? It has rather a literary
flavor, but
that might be just the thing for a young high school girl.


Wendy Ebersberger
wseber...@earthlink.net