types of dismissal

[Susan Murata]

I am translating corporate regulations that include a chart listing types of dismissal.

 

I need to distinguish beetween

 

chokai kaiko 懲戒解雇　

 

and

 

yushi kaiko 諭旨解雇

 

The first is the more severe type and I am tentatively translating it as "disciplinary dismissal" or perhaps "punative dismissal."

 

The second is less severe but I have no text explaining what it actually envolves. Googling seems to suggest that this term is used when an employee is ordered/pressured to resign.

 

How does "dismissal for cause" sound?

--
Susan Murata
smu...@gmail.com

[musi...@gmail.com]

At 1:17 PM +0900 12/26/06, Susan Murata wrote:

>I need to distinguish beetween
>
>chokai kaiko
>

>and
>
>yushi kaiko

I would go with "disciplinary dismissal" and "ordinary dismissal,"
respectively.

The following link has an interesting explanation of different types
of dismissal from Japanese companies:

http://www.japanlaw.info/law2004/JAPANBIZLAWLITE4GAIJIN_LABOR_LAW.html#DISMISSAL.

I hope this helps a little!

Sincerely,
Irith T. Bloom

P.S. Please note, by the way, that "punitive" is spelled with two
"I"s ("punItive"), rather than with one "A" and one "I" ("punAtive").

[Fred Uleman]

But if someone is dismissed with cause, this is the same as being
disciplined for whatever the cause was.

I suspect "voluntary" would work in that "voluntary" is sometimes used
when the person "voluntarily" does something as a lesser-evil choice.
E.g., the person is given a choice between voluntarily resigning and
being fired. Or in international trade, a country is given a choice
between voluntarily restraining its exports of, say, automobiles or
having the importing country initiate a long and ugly legal squabble.

What are the kanji for yushi? kokorozashi ari?

--
Fred Uleman

[Susan Murata]

Thank you, Irith and Fred.

 

Irith, thanks for catching my typo!

 

Google has stripped out the kanji in my email.

 

The kanji for the "yushi" of yushi kaiko are the "ron" of "riron" and the "shi" of "shushi."

 

I've decided on punitive dismissal for chokai kaiko.

 

For yushi kaiko, I'm still deciding. Ordinary dismissal is nice and succinct, but leaves no opening to have other, lower grades of dismissal.

 

Voluntary, what, "resignation"?  This is possible, but might there be confusion with early retirement and the like? Yushi kaiko is a disciplinary measure not a retirement option.

 

Susan
--
Susan Murata
smu...@gmail.com

[musi...@gmail.com]

At 1:55 PM +0900 12/26/06, Susan Murata wrote:

>Voluntary, what, "resignation"? This is possible, but might there
>be confusion with early retirement and the like? Yushi kaiko is a
>disciplinary measure not a retirement option.

How about "forced resignation" or "constructive dismissal" (now
there's a euphemism for you)?

Irith T. Bloom
Los Angeles, CA

[Susan Murata]

Constructive dismissal appears to have a slightly diffeent meaning.

 

Constructive dismissal

Under the employment law of some states, judges will consider a situation where there has been a fundamental violation of the rights of an employee, by the employer, so severe that the employee would have the right to consider himself as dismissed, even though, in fact, there has been no act of dismissal on the part of the employer. For example, if an employer tries to force an employee to accept a drastic demotion, the employee might have a case for constructive dismissal and would be able to assume that the employment contract has been ended and seek compensation from a court.

 

I may just go with ordinary dismissal if nothing else comes up in teh next hour or so.<g>

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Susan

 

How about "forced resignation" or "constructive dismissal" (now
there's a euphemism for you)?

Irith T. Bloom
Los Angeles, CA

--
Susan Murata
smu...@gmail.com

[David J. Littleboy]

From: "Susan Murata" <smu...@gmail.com>

>
> Google has stripped out the kanji in my email.

Your original message does not have a "Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-2022-JP" line in the header. That means that the kanji codes are
problematic, in that since you haven't told the world what they are, it's
not completely unreasonable for some program somewhere to consider them
erronious.

I don't know how you composed the message, but if you could figure out how
to set the encoding to "JIS", your kanji might come through. Maybe.

David J. Littleboy
dav...@gol.com
Tokyo, Japan

[Richard Sadowsky]

How about "non-punitive dismissal"?
Or "stipulated resignation"?
--
Richard Sadowsky
Awaji Island, Japan

[Dais Takada]

>chokai kaiko and yushi kaiko

 

>The first is the more severe type and I am tentatively translating it as "disciplinary dismissal"

> or perhaps "punative dismissal."

 

>The second is less severe but I have no text explaining what it actually envolves. Googling seems

> to suggest that this term is used when an employee is >ordered/pressured to resign.

 

Quick search in Eijiro suggests to me to render “chokai kaiko (「懲戒解雇」)” as “punitive dismissal”

and “yushi menshoku (equivalent to chokai kaiko in this context) (「諭旨免職」)”

as “resignation under instruction” (meaning an employee is asked to resign from his

employment by the employee and, less severe than chokai kaiko).

 

FWIW

 

Dais Takada, Osaka, Japan

proc...@ybb.ne.jp

 

 

 

[Wataru Tenga]

David wrote...

>
> From: "Susan Murata" <smu...@gmail.com>
> >
> > Google has stripped out the kanji in my email.
>
> Your original message does not have a "Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=ISO-2022-JP" line in the header.

There are actually two sets of Content-Type headers, the first for the
HTML multi-part message, and then these at the end:

***Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP; format=flowed
***Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The problem really does seem to be in Gmail, but for some reason it
doesn't affect everyone.

(If my name, 天河 航, gets stripped out, it will be the first time.)
--
Wataru Tenga
天河 航

[Dais Takada]

>>chokai kaiko and yushi kaiko
>>The first is the more severe type and I am tentatively translating it as
"disciplinary dismissal"
> >or perhaps "punative dismissal."
>>The second is less severe but I have no text explaining what it actually
envolves. Googling >>seems to suggest that this term is used when an
employee is >ordered/pressured to resign.

__________

>Quick search in Eijiro suggests to me to render “chokai kaiko (「懲戒解
雇」)” as “punitive >dismissal” and “yushi menshoku (equivalent to
chokai kaiko in this context) (「諭旨免
>職」)”as “resignation under instruction” (meaning an employee is asked
to resign from his

>employment by the employee and, less severe than chokai kaiko).

>FWIW

>Dais Takada, Osaka, Japan

>proc...@ybb.ne.jp
____________________________

Ooops, words in my previous post written in html format, kanji parts were
corrupted I don't know why and I am sending the post in txt. format this
time, hoping this would work.

Sorry for inconvenience.

Dais Takada, Osaka, proc...@ybb.ne.jp

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

Wataru Tenga <wte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> (If my name, , gets stripped out, it will be the first time.)

While I certainly was no fan of Yahoo's, I think this current spate of
disappearing kanji is worse than anything we ever experienced over there.

ほんまに困ったことじゃ。
Honma ni komatta koto ja.

What's to do?

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Minoru Mochizuki]

Chokai kaiko, from the employer's viewpoint, is a case

which is beyond any reason for arguments. It is, for example, 

an employee committing a major violation of the work rule. 

I believe that it is called "disciplinary dismissal." 

 

On the other hand, yushi kaiko is applied for a relatively

minor misconduct, for example, an employee habitually

spending a lot of time using the employer's telephone 

for private conversations during work hours in the office,

despite warnings, thus substantially affecting work efficiency

and annoying other workers. In such a case, the employer 

tells the reasons why it has decided to let the person go.

Hence it is called "yushi" (to reason and to persuade (the

employee to leave)). 

I believe it is called "instructive dismissal." 

 

For the latter, see: http://www.eod.gvsu.edu/eod/engineer/engineer-73.html

 

Minoru Mochizuki

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Susan Murata

To: hon...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:17 PM

Subject: types of dismissal

I am translating corporate regulations that include a chart listing types of dismissal.

 

I need to distinguish beetween

 

chokai kaiko

 

and

 

yushi kaiko

[Wataru Tenga]

Wolfgang wrote...

> > (If my name, , gets stripped out, it will be the first time.)
>
> While I certainly was no fan of Yahoo's, I think this current spate of
> disappearing kanji is worse than anything we ever experienced over there.
>
> ほんまに困ったことじゃ。
> Honma ni komatta koto ja.
>
> What's to do?

As yet another twist, the kanji for my name show up fine on the Web site,
but Susan's are missing both on the Web and in email client view.

Were the kanji missing from my signature as well?

[Susan Murata]

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread. I am now
waivering between "ordinary dismissal" and "instructive dismissal."
Will think more on this tomorrow.

For those concerned about the lost kanji, I sent my original post from
my gmail account website NOT the honyaku group account website. No idea
if this clarifies things or only muddies the waters more....

I am sending this email from the honyaku group account.

Susan Murata

[Richard Thieme]

Interesting. That seemed to be the only googit I could find. Not encouraging. I usually wind up writing it out as "resignation at the request of the company" or something like that.

 

 

Regards,

 

Richard Thieme

[Richard Thieme]

Indeed. It makes one wonder if using a mailing list program from a site such
as JATLIST (or another site), might be an option.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wataru Tenga" <wte...@gmail.com>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: types of dismissal

>

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

Wataru Tenga <wte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Were the kanji missing from my signature as well?

Yes. はい。 (My kanji seem to show up fine).

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Wolfgang Bechstein]

Wolfgang Bechstein <bech...@netprisma.com> wrote:

> Yes. (My kanji seem to show up fine).

Fushigi and fushigiier...

While the kanji came back fine in my first message to this thread, a
hirgana "hai" that I had inserted above is now only a blank at this end.

Wolfgang Bechstein
bech...@netprisma.com

[Dais Takada]

＞Fushigi and fushigiier...

 

＞While the kanji came back fine in my first message to this thread, a hirgana "hai" that I had inserted above is now only a blank at ＞this end.

 

＞Wolfgang Bechstein

＞bech...@netprisma.com

 

Apologies to all for my post of garbage some time ago, but I have no idea why I can’t post kanjis and hiraganas

today (tried both in html., and txt. with encoding JIS and posted from Google’s Yahoo list) while I can read them clearly

when I sent my text to myself.

 

Really, to me, Fushigi and fushigiler.......

 

Dais Takada, Osaka, Japan. proc...@ybb.ne.jp

 

 

[ALEEPAPA]

Hi, Susan,
I am a Chinese, i learn some Japanese, but not good enough to be
a qualified translator. I have read something from the dictionary,
share it all with you:

ちょうかい【懲戒】
an official reprimand； a disciplinary punishment
句例
懲戒する discipline； 《形式》 reprimand； 《形式》
reprove.
懲戒処分 《形式》 disciplinary action
句例
懲戒処分を受ける 《形式》 be subjected to disciplinary
action
懲戒免職 《形式》 a disciplinary dismissal ［discharge］
句例
懲戒免職になる be dismissed in disgrace.

ゆし【諭旨】
an official suggestion.
諭旨退学
句例
諭旨退学になる leave school at the request of the school
authorities
文例
首謀者5名は退学を命ぜられ,
その他約10名の学生は諭旨退学となった. Five of the
ringleaders were publicly expelled； about ten other boys were
withdrawn by their parents at the request of the school authorities.
諭旨免職
句例
諭旨免職になる resign one's post under instruction.

かいこ【解雇】
《形式》 （a） dismissal； （a） firing； a layoff
（一時の）
句例
解雇する fire； 《口語》 sack； 《形式》 dismiss；
《形式》 discharge； 《英口語》 give （a worker） the
sack； lay somebody off （一時的に）
解雇される be fired ［《口語》 sacked, 《形式》
dismissed, 《形式》 discharged］； 《英口語》 get ［be
given］ the sack； be laid off （一時的に）.
解雇通知
句例
1か月前に解雇通知をする give somebody one month's notice
解雇手当 a dismissal allowance； severance pay； 《英》 a
redundancy payment.

New College Japanese-English Dictionary, 4th edition (C) Kenkyusha Ltd.
1933,1995,1998

So
chokai kaiko 懲戒解雇 can be "a disciplinary dismissal"

and

yushi kaiko 諭旨解雇 can be "a dismissal under the instruction of
the official"

I would be appreciate if you can send me a copy of the orginal text in
Japanese and your translation for these two complete sentences.

thanks and best wishes

Vincent Chen
univer...@126.com

"Susan Murata 写道：