systematically

[Takehiko Ito]

Dear Fellas,

電子ブックの規約書の中に、
「Licensee shall not systematically download any Content. 」
という一節があるのですが、この「systematically」の意味がどうにも
不可解でなりません。辞書には「体系的」とか「系統的」といった
意味しか載っていませんが、この文脈ではどうみても「システム」
を伴うような意味で使われていると思われます。

Any idea? Thank you"!

Takehiko Ito
Suginami, Tokyo

[Calum Riach]

A couple of dictionaries have the following.

1.  characterized by the use of order and planning

1.  having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan

It appears to thus mean willfully/intentionally/with premeditation, though I don't have any experience of the term in this context myself.

Calum Riach

[Clare Imazawa]

"Systematically" is a word I often use to translate 計画的, which seems
to gel well with the dictionary definitions provided by Calum.

Clare Imazawa
Melbourne, VIC, Australia

[Kevin Kirton]

> 電子ブックの規約書の中に、
> 「Licensee shall not systematically download any Content. 」
> という一節があるのですが、この「systematically」の意味がどうにも
> 不可解でなりません
>

> Any idea?

The first thing that came to mind (not sure if this will help, but
FWIW) is the conflicts that are now happening between content
providers and people who download that content, not in full, but
_systematically_. Examples would be how Google News (systematically)
uses content from organizations that pay reporters to collect news,
and how some sites will systematically (and automatically) search,
download, and reorganize content from weather stations and
public/private train/bus timetables.

So it's not necessarily how much content is being downloaded or
whether the content is already freely and publicly available, it's the
systematic reuse or misappropriation that is the issue. Doesn't 系統的
feel right for systematic in that sense (if this is the right sense in
your context)?

Kevin Kirton

[Kenji Takamoto]

systematic downloadingや
systematic download
で検索すると、日本語サイトでは、
例えば

...大量ダウンロード

... 「系統的（大量）ダウンロード」(Systematic Download)
とは、通常の使い方の範囲を越えたダウンロード行為
を指します。

...Systematic Download (自動ダウンロードソフト等を
利用して，もしくは手動で，大量のファイルを
短時間にダウンロードすること)

など多数、ヒットします。
訳語を決める上で参考になると思います。

Kenji Takamoto
Kobe, Japan

[Takehiko Ito]

Takamotoさん

ありがとうございます。まさにこのような意味だったんですね！

確かに、検索すると多数の解説があるようです。訳語としては
「システマティックに」などとしておくのが無難なような気がしますね。

Takehiko Ito

[pg...@gol.com]

Owen, please contact me.

Perry E. Gary

[Brian Chandler]

Takehiko Ito wrote:
> Dear Fellas,
>
> 電子ブックの規約書の中に、
> 「Licensee shall not systematically download any Content. 」
> という一節があるのですが、この「systematically」の意味がどうにも
> 不可解でなりません。辞書には「体系的」とか「系統的」といった
> 意味しか載っていませんが、この文脈ではどうみても「システム」
> を伴うような意味で使われていると思われます。
>
> Any idea? Thank you"!

This is a "Legal Mind" trying to say something that sounds plausible
to the LM, but is actually incoherent.

What they mean is that it's OK to use the site/content/whatever, as
long as you don't have any more clue what you are doing than an LM
would. Very probably they use "download" in he legal "(non)sense"; no-
one who understands how the web works can understand what they mean by
"download", but it's something like "access a file while understanding
how your computer's operating system works."

In the 18th century, if something was written in a book, there were a
number of things you could do with it: remember it, make a note of it,
or mention it to a friend, for example. If you were really good at the
subject, you would understand the topic deeply, and probably become
more of an expert than the author. Of course if you wanted to, you
could make your own card index to topics in the book. If you happened
to be an Egyptian prince, you could probably rustle up 240 delicious
Nubian slave-girls, and assign them one page each, and tell them to
remember all the words on their own page -- then if you shouted out
'cactus', for example, all the Nubians with 'cactus' on their pages
would run to the front. So you could implement a keyword search. But
in practice any _systematic_ use of the book like this was hugely
expensive, and had no effect in the real world. (And if it did, no
doubt it would have increased rather than decreased sales of the book,
so the author and printer would have been baffled by any suggestion
that it ought to upset them.)

However, to LM's dismay, this is the 21st century. "Information wants
to be free." That's because information is not like bananas or printed
books; it is not an entity that can be "exchanged" for money, because
when you tell someone something, you know absolutely no less yourself.
In the 18th century, the technology for transferring information (i.e.
books) was such that it was possible to ignore this problem, since
after all, books are rather like bananas. Now a grown-up, and
technically informed response to this would be to think entirely
afresh about how to arrange to compensate people who work to collect
or create information. But LM is neither grown-up, nor technically
informed, so it simply craves the 18th century, and hopes that by
writing florid babble like your problem expression that somehow we
will all agree to stay in the 18th century.

Sorry, this might not help you find the "right" word -- except that
there isn't one. Just look for something impressive-sounding, possibly
in kakana. How about just システム的 ?

Brian Chandler

[Simon V]

辞書には「体系的」とか「系統的」といった意味しか載っていませんが

It sounds as if you immediately jumped for your E>J dictionary. If so,
may I suggest that before you consult your E>J dictionary, you check
your OED or similar and find out what range of meanings the word
covers "in English"? Then you can decide which of those meanings is
most relevant and choose a suitable Japanese word.
Belief in a one-to-one correspondence between English and Japanese
words is a religion that will bring you grief.

I think this came up in another thread recently: "Sapir-Whorf
rehabilitated."

I agree with the 計画的 suggestion, but 大量ダウンロード is pretty close.

Good luck
Simon
(the other SPV)

[Mark Spahn]

Thank you, Brian Chandler, for your edifying* explanation
of what the agreement drafter must have meant by "systematically" in

「Licensee shall not systematically download any Content. 」

(*edifying = I wouldn't have figured it out on my own).

From your explanation, what they want to prohibit is the
(useful) _reorganization_ or _repackaging_ or _recombination_
of the information they provide, such as
taking their book text and preparing a lookup index, a
keyword-in-context list, a sorted list of the count of
each word or character occurring in the text, a comparison
of the text with many other texts, etc. -- where what-all
is included in that "etc." is not explicitly defined.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

[Kevin Kirton]

> I agree with the 計画的 suggestion, but 大量ダウンロード is pretty close.

I don't think "systematically" here is 大量, in fact, in the case here
(which is an e-book), even if a user coded a script that searched the
book for any sentences in quotation marks near the name of a minor
character, then downloaded those sentences, that would be a
"systematic" download even if the actual download amount was very
small in volume.

Kevin Kirton

[Takehiko Ito]

(2010/09/02 19:51), Brian Chandler wrote:
> Sorry, this might not help you find the "right" word -- except that
> there isn't one. Just look for something impressive-sounding, possibly
> in kakana. How about just システム的 ?
>

Thanks Brian, I also thought of the possibility of "システム的に" but
wondered if
that would really work, as I could not definitely imagine the meaning of
the word.

In fact, I doubted that such a word really appear in the actual world,
except for
such cases of "システム的には" in the context of "in terms of the system" or
the like.

Rather, "システムを使用して" or something like that maybe an alternative
in this case.

Takehiko Ito

[Shuichi Yamakawa]

Hi everyone,

I read the OP's question, but did not follow the ensuing discussions
carefully untile I spotted the below posting a minute ago.

> Rather, "システムを使用して" or something like that maybe an alternative
> in this case.
>
> Takehiko Ito
>

How avout 機械的に (in a figurative sense)
if no one has suggested it yet, by any chance?
Sorry if this is just irrelevant.

Shu

[Minoru Mochizuki]

議論は出尽くしたようですが、さらに私見を加えるとすれば、
「自動的に」を申請します。すなわち、件の文は
「ライセンスを取得してもそれによって自動的にコンテンツ
がダウンロードされるわけではありません」という意味で
あろうかと思います。

Minoru Mochizuki

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Takehiko Ito
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 10:44 AM
> To: hon...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: systematically
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Honyaku
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[Richard Thieme]

Hmm. The shall I think implies an intent by the licensee, not necessarily
that it is done automatically.

I good mind test here would be to ask a bunch of (native English) lawyers
what systematically means here. I am betting they will not be able to come
up with a consistent answer, because they have not thought it through, well,
systematically.

Tough nut to crack. As a non-native Japanese I think 計画的に comes the
closest.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

[Steven P. Venti]

"Richard Thieme" <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
> I good mind test here would be to ask a bunch of (native English) lawyers
> what systematically means here. I am betting they will not be able to come
> up with a consistent answer, because they have not thought it through, well,
> systematically.

I apologize if this is already been mentioned, but in my desultory
reading of this thread, I kept wanting to know more about the context.

I have no idea what the OP meant by ”電子ブックの規約書," but for the
sake of argument let's assume that what is being licensed here is access
to a digital library. The licensor surely realizes that any licensee can
systematically download large portions of the library, open his own web
site, and go into direct competition against the licensor. To prevent
this, the licensor obviously wants to prohibit any licensee from
intentionally replicating large tracts of the library.

> Tough nut to crack. As a non-native Japanese I think 計画的に comes the
> closest.

Yes, I think so, too. If my assumptions about the context prove to be
germane, then systematically here simply means "with the intent to
replicate in whole or in part."

FWIW

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com

No electrons have been harmed, truths distorted, nor personalities
defamed in the posting of this message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Mika J.]

Ito-san wrote:
>In fact, I doubted that such a word really appear in the actual world, except for such cases of "システム的には" in the context of "in terms of the system" or the like.

>Rather, "システムを使用して" or something like that maybe an alternative in this case.

私もそう思います。
あとTakamotoさんのご投稿の中にあった「行為」という言葉に案外ポイントがあるのかもしれません。

この「行為」という語は中立的な言葉ではなく「悪」を指すことが多いですね？
「悪」ではないかと示唆することで善悪判断に働きかける語ではないでしょうか。

「行為」を抜いて「どのような」ダウンロードをしてはならない、
だけの訳にしてみると、一概に「それ以外ならいいけどネ」的な
逃げ道を作るように思えます。

"システム的にダウンロードしてはならない"　「システム的に」がほとんど無意味なため、もとの英語以上に曖昧な和訳です。
"自動的・機械的にダウンロードしてはならない"　「ダウンロードって、自動的・機械的にするものじゃなかったっけ？ダウンロードは全くできないの？」
"大量ダウンロードしてはならない"　「1分毎にちょっとずつならいいのね？」
"計画的ダウンロードしてはならない"　「別に計画してやってるわけじゃないから。」

電子ブックの規約書の中で、
「機械的システムを用いるダウンロード行為を行ってはならない。」
ぐらいにすれば、英語とほぼ同等の理解が読み手に伝わらないでしょうか？
正解かどうかはわかりませんが。

Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
        English to Japanese Translator
        http://inJapanese.us

[Laurie Berman]

On Sep 3, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Shuichi Yamakawa wrote:
>
>> Rather, "システムを使用して" or something like that maybe an
>> alternative
>> in this case.
>

> How avout 機械的に (in a figurative sense)
> if no one has suggested it yet, by any chance?
> Sorry if this is just irrelevant.

Gosh, English is so vague and ambiguous! <g>

Just my two cents, but I think perhaps some are putting too much
emphasis on the "system" in "systematic," and I'm not sure that
systems have anything to do with it. I think the closest single word
in Japanese is probably 計画的. But 計画的 alone may not
be sufficient.

This is my lay-person's take, FWIW. Used in a negative context,
"systematic" is not that far from "premeditated." However,
"systematic" goes *beyond* "premeditated" in that it implies the kind
of planning or thinking needed to carry out a large or complex task
efficiently and effectively. And I don't think this is *necessarily*
implied by 計画的 (although it could be depending on the
context). In other words, you can't systematically shoot someone. But
you could systematically go through a building and shoot everyone in
it. (Sorry for the macabre example.) On the other hand, I think you
could probably use 計画的 in either situation.

By extension, I get the sense that "systematically download" implies
both a certain premeditated intent, as Steve and Richard pointed out,
and a large or complex task (not saying how large or complex). I
imagine that's why 多量 has been used in the past, and I'm not
completely convinced that it's wrong (particularly since it's
difficult to define 多量).

Laurie Berman

[kanji saito]

かなり遅まきではありますが、何かのご参考になればと思い、一筆。

問題の文章が禁じている行為は、自動プログラムを使用した大量ダウンロードだ
と思います。

参考
岡崎市立中央図書館のホームページへの大量アクセスによる障害について
http://www.library.okazaki.aichi.jp/tosho/about/files/20100901.html

ということで、「自動プログラムなどを使用した大量ダウンロード」ではいかが
でしょうか。

斉藤　完治

[Laurie Berman]

Whoops, I meant 大量.

Anyhow, if the idea is just that one isn't allowed to download using
an automated downloading program, then I really wonder why they
didn't just say so. Or is "systematically" accepted computer jargon
that none of the native English speakers on the list know about?

Laurie Berman

[Mark Spahn]

Ghaaarrr! I wanna take y'all by the scruff of
the neck and tell ya that Brian Chandler has
already answered this question completely
satisfactorily: As the word is used here,
"systematically" is incoherent.
'Tis bootless to try to find sense in nonsense.

-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

Reread this:

> Sorry, this might not help you find the "right" word -- except that
> there isn't one. Just look for something impressive-sounding, possibly

> in ka[ta]kana. How about just システム的 ?
>
> Brian Chandler

[David Farnsworth]

That was quite the fine pirate talk. I can almost hear you growling... (heh)

Reminds me of the Famous Arrrgh inscription in the Monty Python classic.

(and now back to your quibbling over nonsense words...)

David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224

-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

Reread this:

--

[David J. Littleboy]

From: "Laurie Berman" <berma...@verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Whoops, I meant 大量.

At the risk of repeating something that someone's already said:

It sounds to me like it's normal English. They want to give you access to
what you want to read in any random, one at a time, as-you-see-fit order,
but they don't want you systematically copying their material.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[David J. Littleboy]

From: "Mark Spahn" <mark...@verizon.net>

> Ghaaarrr! I wanna take y'all by the scruff of
> the neck and tell ya that Brian Chandler has
> already answered this question completely
> satisfactorily:

So far, so good. But.

> As the word is used here, "systematically" is incoherent.

I disagree. While I don't know how to express it well in Japanese, it's
quite coherent. See my other note for what it means.

[Fred Uleman]

Seems to me "systematically" here is the same as "methodically."
It is okay if you copy a few things here and there upon once in a while. but don't overdo it.

--
Fred Uleman, translator emeritus

[Kevin Kirton]

Fred Uleman wrote:

> Seems to me "systematically" here is the same as "methodically."
> It is okay if you copy a few things here and there upon once in a while. but
> don't overdo it.

I agree with "methodically" but not the "here and there once in a while".

And, as some others have said, I also think the English is fine, not
nonsensical at all.

It is saying that the user cannot use a system (such as a "computer
system" or a "team of delicious Nubians holding indexed banana
leaves") to access, download, and re-use any of the content. It's not
about amount but the method, I believe.

Kevin Kirton

[Richard Thieme]

Sounds like David Littleboy, Fred Uleman, and Kevin Kirton have both made
Brian's point quite well.

One says that it is a one at a time thing, another says that it is
methodically, and a third says you can't use a computer.

All in all, it sounds to me as if it hasn't been thought out. Yes it appears
to be coherent in English, but it means different things to different
people.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

[Steven P. Venti]

Kevin Kirton <kpki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not about amount but the method, I believe.

Hmm. I see your point, but I would actually go so far as to say that it
is about intent, as manifested in either amount or method.

It's also possible that the object is to preventing server overload
rather than privacy.

[kanji saito]

サーバーのオーバーロードだけが問題になっているわけではないと思います。

例
http://japan.elsevier.com/sdsupport/

システマティックダウンロードの禁止について
通常の使い方の範囲を越えたシステマティックな大量ダウンロードは禁止されて
います。たとえば、以下のような利用がシステマティックダウンロードに該当し
ます。
・クローラー（crawlers）、ロボット（robots）、スパイダー（spiders）など
のプログラムを使ったダウンロード
・特定のジャーナルの全号または多くの号のダウンロード

斉藤　完治

[Steven P. Venti]

I wrote:
> It's also possible that the object is to preventing server overload
> rather than privacy.

Sheesh. The object is to prevent server overload rather than piracy.

kanji saito <in...@troutbum.co.nz> wrote:
> サーバーのオーバーロードだけが問題になっているわけではないと思います。

Yes, I realize that. I was not delimiting the issue to server overload;
I was merely presenting another example of why such a condition might be
included in the terms of use.

[Shuichi Yamakawa]

Hi everyone,

On September 3 I spoke up and a kind of rekindled a thread which
had been once closed, for which I apologize. But I did so because
the OP was going to settle for システム的, which I thought was not
quite right.

I really like the quote presented by Kanji Saito-san:

> http://japan.elsevier.com/sdsupport/
>
> システマティックダウンロードの禁止について
I think システマティック　is the best solution and solves the OP's
problem once and for all. I have not been very much happy with
other expressions suggested so far on this thread including my own.

Shu

[Takehiko Ito]

(2010/09/05 18:55), Shuichi Yamakawa wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> On September 3 I spoke up and a kind of rekindled a thread which
> had been once closed, for which I apologize. But I did so because
> the OP was going to settle for システム的, which I thought was not
> quite right.

Yamanaka-san, OPとして弁明させていただければ、決して「システム的」という
日本語を受け入れると言った覚えはありません。
むしろMikaさんにも同意していただいたように、システム的というのは非常に
あいまいであり、翻訳者としては避けるべき表現の一つだと思います。

最初の方のスレッドでTakamotoさんから貴重な情報があり、その時点で
「システマティックなダウンロード」という訳語でよいのではないかと考えてい
ました。
もちろん、これが「正解」かどうかは分かりませんが、少なくともこれを読んだ
ユーザーが、「システマティックなダウンロード」とは何を指すのかと疑問を持った
ときに、ウェブ検索すれば答えが得られるという意味では、間違いではない
と思います。

Takehiko Ito

[Shuichi Yamakawa]

Takehiko Ito-san,

私の勘違いです。スレッドをきちんと読まないで途中で発言したも
のですから、このようなことになりました。大変失礼しました。

Shu

[Mika J.]

Shuさん、Kanjiさん、

システマティックはいい案ですね。伝わりがいいようです。
「行為」をプラスするかどうかについては、いかがご覧になりますか？

入れた方が無難で、また英語にも合うように思えるのですが。

[Mika J.]

お二方だけに限定したような書き出しになってしまったかも、そのつもりはなかったのですが。
失礼しました。

[Fred Uleman]

I suspect many of us have been unconsciously assuming the licensee is an individual. But what if the licensee is a company or other organization? In that case, would 組織的に (soshikitekini) work?

[kanji saito]

The licenseeが会社またはその他の組織に限定される場合であっても、この文脈
で「組織的に」と訳してしまうと原文の意味が正しく再現されない、と思います。
原文が禁じているダウンロード行為は、会社あるいはその他の組織が組織的に行
う場合に限定されず、会社あるいはその他の組織に所属している個人が単独で行
うダウンロード行為も対象にしているからです。

例
http://www.lib.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/reference/ejriyoan.html
警　　告 　－電子ジャーナルの不正利用について－ (2002.7.22)

大変残念なことですが、昨年の１１月に続き、ある出版社から下記のような
不正利用についての厳重な抗議が寄せられております。今回は２度目の警告で
す。このような不正利用がありますと、一人の不正利用者のために、本学の全て
の利用者が利用できなくなります。
二度と不正利用のないよう、上記を熟読のうえご利用くださるよう重ねてお
願いします。　

出版社からの抗議内容(要旨）
　２００２年７月２１日（現地時間）に広島大学のアドレス133.41.**.***か
ら、連続的・継続的且つ短時間に大量のデータをシステマチックにダウンロード
したものがいます。よって、このＰＣからのアクセスを停止しました。　このよ
うな、システマチックなダウンロードは利用契約書にもあるように禁止事項で
す。状況を調査し、報告をしてください。もし、回答がなかったり、今後も不正
利用が続くと広島大学からの利用を停止します。また、再びシステマティックな
ダウンロードをしないことを保証するよう要求します。

斉藤　完治

[Mika J.]

>この文脈で「組織的に」と訳してしまうと原文の意味が正しく再現されない、と思います。...会社あるいはその他の組織が組織的に行
う場合に限定されず...

Yes.  In other words, 組織的にダウンロード（組織的なダウンロード）morphs into something like "downloading AS an organizational (concerted) EFFORT."