Throwing money at a stripper?

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Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 11:29:53 AMJan 24
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OK -- here is an area I know nothing about....

 

In today's patent this is an electronic system for a "live broadcast performer" to request a "gift 投入" from a viewer.  Not sure of the best translation for "投入"

 

This is related to this word, I am sure: 投げ銭. This is listed in Weblio as "tossing a coin (to a street performer or beggar)"

 

"Tipping" is kind of close, but in my mind that has a nuance of providing an extra gratuity to someone for a job that would be done anyway.

"Donation" is kind of close too, but in my mind that has a nuance of providing support for an altruistic cause, rather than direct compensation for the performer.

To be fair though -- I often see street performers with signs asking for "tips" and "donations," so perhaps those are the best words. Note however that I am looking for a verb to be used with the direct object, "gift." Does one "donate" a gift? (All I can think of is "give a gift"...)

 

Does anybody have anything better?

 

(If it helps focus what is meant by this "投入," in the patent there is a strong feeling of actually "throwing" the money, where the viewer "flicks" the controller to "投入" the "gift" at the performer.)

 

Thanks.

 

Warren

 

 

 

 

Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 11:41:15 AMJan 24
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Perhaps a "gift *bestowal* request"?

 

I think I will go with that until a better word appears.

 

W

 


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Brian Watson

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Jan 24, 2022, 12:02:55 PMJan 24
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Warren,

Within the drag community, the term is tipping.

You tip the performers.

HTH,

Brian Watson

Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 12:41:05 PMJan 24
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Thanks, Brian. "Tip" it is, then.

 

It's strange, even after decades of doing this it still amazes me that the greatest difficulty I have in the craft of translation is NOT understanding the foreign language, but finding the right word in my native language.

 

W

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Matthew Schlecht

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Jan 24, 2022, 3:36:36 PMJan 24
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 11:29 AM Warren Smith <Warren...@comcast.net> wrote:

OK -- here is an area I know nothing about....


I don't want to present myself as particularly well versed in these arts either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of months ago, so...
Just an astute observer of popular culture.
  

In today's patent this is an electronic system for a "live broadcast performer"


If, for example, the live broadcast performer is presenting real-time content of a salacious nature, and is female, she is called a "cam girl".
A limited range of content is available gratis to the general surfing public, while a wider range of paid or compensated content is the real economic driver.
A more recent incarnation is the "Only Fans" paradigm, which you can google. It is subscription based, I believe to avoid documentation of individual transactions.
 

to request a "gift 投入" from a viewer.  Not sure of the best translation for "投入"


Of course, euphemisms are used.
Tips, donations, subscription fees (for Only Fans).
Any way in which the interaction can be viewed as "transactional" can run into legal problems.
For that reason, the term "tip" would be used internally while it would appear as "donation" in public.
  

This is related to this word, I am sure: 投げ銭. This is listed in Weblio as "tossing a coin (to a street performer or beggar)"

 

"Tipping" is kind of close, but in my mind that has a nuance of providing an extra gratuity to someone for a job that would be done anyway.

"Donation" is kind of close too, but in my mind that has a nuance of providing support for an altruistic cause, rather than direct compensation for the performer.

To be fair though -- I often see street performers with signs asking for "tips" and "donations," so perhaps those are the best words. Note however that I am looking for a verb to be used with the direct object, "gift." Does one "donate" a gift? (All I can think of is "give a gift"...)


"make a donation".
 

 Does anybody have anything better?

 

(If it helps focus what is meant by this "投入," in the patent there is a strong feeling of actually "throwing" the money, where the viewer "flicks" the controller to "投入" the "gift" at the performer.)


If the text is associated with an interface which only an individual consumer would directly access, it would probably be "tip".
In texts open to a broader audience including those not necessarily participating, it would probably be "donation", not for semantic but for legal reasons.

With Best Regards,

Matthew

Matthew Schlecht, PhD
Word Alchemy Translation, Inc.
Newark, DE, USA
wordalchemytranslation.com

Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 3:50:03 PMJan 24
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I think you are exactly right, Matthew.

 

They are being very careful to call the payments "gifts," where the "artistic content" of the "performance" is varied depending on the price of the gift (e.g., "song 1" is performed for a more expensive "gift" and "song 2" is performed for a less expensive "gift").

 

The lengths taken to avoid stating the obvious is pretty amusing here. Kind of like pachinko parlors giving out combs as "prizes" for winning lots of pachinko balls, and some lady in a shop around the corner who loves to purchase combs from strangers at very high prices. (Do they still do that in Japan?)

 

W

Matthew Schlecht

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Jan 24, 2022, 4:09:16 PMJan 24
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 3:50 PM Warren Smith <Warren...@comcast.net> wrote:

I think you are exactly right, Matthew.

 

They are being very careful to call the payments "gifts," where the "artistic content" of the "performance" is varied depending on the price of the gift (e.g., "song 1" is performed for a more expensive "gift" and "song 2" is performed for a less expensive "gift").


Precisely.
  

The lengths taken to avoid stating the obvious is pretty amusing here.


Many escort services operate on paper as "modeling agencies".
I don't think many/any of the guys (and some girls) bring cameras.
They are very explicit that any payments are for time spent, and not in return for any services that may or may not be provided.
Must have good legal advice!

Many years ago, while visiting Las Vegas (with my wife!!!), I read an article about the euphemisms being used in the sex work trade: masseuse, model, tour guide, etc. As each incarnation was identified, investigated, and prosecuted, those in the trade did a side-step to a new label.
The author predicted that someday the practitioners might be identified as "rental furniture".

Still begs the question of what to use in your translation, though, as the term of art.
Maybe "donation" is best, in that that's what is used in the public industry interfaces.
Do they have paragraphs with term definitions?

Carl Sullivan

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Jan 24, 2022, 8:45:56 PMJan 24
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Team,

I wasn't too surprised to see Warren on a topic like this, but Matthew--wow. I will have to readjust my frame of mind now.. 😁



Carl

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Matthew Schlecht

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Jan 24, 2022, 9:02:11 PMJan 24
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 8:45 PM Carl Sullivan <masacatransl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Team,

I wasn't too surprised to see Warren on a topic like this, but Matthew--wow. I will have to readjust my frame of mind now.. 😁

Just an astute observer of popular culture.
Never know when that knowledge will come in handy, like now.

Carl Sullivan

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Jan 24, 2022, 9:03:51 PMJan 24
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Matthew,

Just giving you a fun hard time, as the Irishman that I am! Yes--you are most astute. 

Carl



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Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 9:29:57 PMJan 24
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I have to admit, this was much more entertaining than yesterday's document on phacoemulsification of cataracts!

 

Oh -- I ended up punting and just went with "giving" a gift (although I liked Herman's suggestion of "submission," and ended up using that in some other instances of 投入).

 

W

 


cpta...@ozemail.com.au

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Jan 24, 2022, 9:54:27 PMJan 24
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Brothers,

We can learn from each other.

 

https://job-camgirl.cam/en/2020/01/01/a-dictionary-of-terms-for-cam-models/

Tips

The tip is a tip that is left to the model by the user. During public shows, these tips serve as a way to entice the model to do more during the show (like stripping little by little or doing different acts). Viewers who give tips are called Tellers.

Warren Smith

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Jan 24, 2022, 10:07:12 PMJan 24
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A "Dictionary of Terms for Cam Models"?

 

Wow.

 

I suppose that all industries develop their own languages. Honestly though, I am somewhat afraid to look inside -- some concepts, once learned, can never be forgotten, and I am not sure I want this particular material to take up residency in my head space!

 

Ah well -- the job is in, and I am now trying to figure out the intricacies of escutcheon plates for high-tech locks...

 

W

 


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/honyaku/004601d81196%24da417880%248ec46980%24%40ozemail.com.au.

cpta...@ozemail.com.au

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Jan 24, 2022, 10:23:53 PMJan 24
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I understand you apprehension. It brings to mind a local councilman from many years ago who in response to community outrage finally agreed to inspect an ‘adult goods’ store that had open, but would only enter the premises on the condition that he was accompanied by a priest!

Chris

Allen Hunter

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Jan 25, 2022, 3:06:04 PMJan 25
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Finally, a topic I feel I have some expertise in! :D 

As a musician who has been performing online during the pandemic, I can say that this is an equally ambiguous topic in English. 

We have toyed with inviting patrons to make tips and donations, etc., but we finally landed on "make a contribution." It seems to encompass the activity completely without all the baggage. 

My 2-bit contribution. 

Allen Hunter 

Bass – Touring, Sessions, Lessons
Eels, Ural Thomas & The Pain, Low Bar Chorale, Anita Lee & The Handsome 3, et al.

J-E Technical, Medical & Pharmaceutical Translation 


Warren Smith

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Jan 25, 2022, 3:54:31 PMJan 25
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It's weird... After I posted the original question I realized that I really should know the answer myself, because I spend a LOT of time earning money by busking on the street corner (where my hourly income is actually higher than with translation).

 

I realize I call my collection box my "tips box," but I find that I don't like the word "tips" to describe the money people give me (as somehow it feels demeaning). I reserve the word "donation" for those days that I am planning on contributing my earnings to the local homeless shelter. When I talk about what I do, I usually talk in terms of "I play my bagpipes on the street corner and people give me money." While I am comfortable in using terminology such as "I earned $600 on the street tonight," I would not say that people pay me (as that seems to imply a contractual relationship of some sort, that I perform under obligation due to a payment received or a payment that is promised).

 

Why is it that, even after many years of earning money through busking, I still lack the proper vocabulary to fully describe the financial transaction?

 

Very odd....

 

Warren

 

PS: Hey -- I have been meaning to ask people. How is the busking scene in Tokyo lately? 30 years ago it was amazing. I have a couple of young friends who are world-class performers (a piper who plays with Dropkick Murphys and with the Red Hot Chili Pipers, and a young lady who is one of the top Scottish fiddlers in the world), and I'd love to take them to Japan if there would be enough money from the street to cover the tickets. 30 years ago they used to shut off a main street in Tokyo near the Imperial Palace on Sunday mornings to make a venue for top-tier busking, and acts would come from all over the world. Do they still do that?

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Hunter
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 3:03 PM
To: Honyaku E<>J translation list
Subject: Re: Throwing money at a stripper?

 

Finally, a topic I feel I have some expertise in! :D 

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Herman

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Jan 25, 2022, 5:05:51 PMJan 25
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On 1/24/22 6:01 PM, Matthew Schlecht wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 8:45 PM Carl Sullivan
> <masacatransl...@gmail.com
> <mailto:masacatransl...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Team,
>
> I wasn't too surprised to see Warren on a topic like this, but
> Matthew--wow. I will have to readjust my frame of mind now.. 😁
>
>
> Just an astute observer of popular culture.
> Never know when that knowledge will come in handy, like now.
>

I don't know if this is particularly relevant to how the terms involved
should be translated, but it seems you are suggesting that the term ギフ
ト投入 is being used with the intent of avoiding the appearance of
paying money for sex-related services rendered by a cam girl.

In my understanding of the matter, ギフト投入 would indicate that this
is talking about a 投げ銭アプリ or other electronic system with
analogous functionality, which is not particularly limited to or
associated with cam girls or anything having to do with sex, and the
term ギフト (or often also アイテム) is not being used to avoid the
appearance of "buying sex", but rather because this is not a sale and
purchase transaction, and thus could be deemed a 為替取引, i.e. a case
of merely transferring funds, and if A transfers funds (資金) to B via a
system operated by C, unless C is a bank or 資金移動業者, it would be
unlawful for C to perform, or accept requests to perform, such a
transaction in Japan, and the regulatory hurdles to become a bank, etc.
in Japan are very high, so as a workaround, there is this scheme of not
simply sending money from A to B via C, but rather having A purchase an
electronic item/gift from C, and then having C separately pay money to
B, under whatever arrangement, in an amount not necessarily directly
linked to the value of the items/gifts in question.

Herman Kahn

Herman

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Jan 25, 2022, 5:20:11 PMJan 25
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On 1/25/22 12:54 PM, Warren Smith wrote:
> It's weird... After I posted the original question I realized that I
> really should know the answer myself, because I spend a LOT of time
> earning money by busking on the street corner (where my hourly income is
> actually higher than with translation).
>
> I realize I call my collection box my "_tips_ box," but I find that I
> don't like the word "tips" to describe the money people give me (as
> somehow it feels demeaning). I reserve the word "donation" for those
> days that I am planning on contributing my earnings to the local
> homeless shelter. When I talk about what I do, I usually talk in terms
> of "I play my bagpipes on the street corner and people _give me money_."
> While I am comfortable in using terminology such as "I _earned_ $600 on
> the street tonight," I would not say that people _pay_ me (as that seems
> to imply a contractual relationship of some sort, that I perform under
> obligation due to a payment received or a payment that is promised).
>
> Why is it that, even after many years of earning money through busking,
> I still lack the proper vocabulary to fully describe the financial
> transaction?
>
> Very odd....
>

Well, your question was related to the term 投入, not "tips", and while
it seems contextually the term 投入 was being used in the sense of
"giving" a gift analogously to how one may give a tip, for instance, if
there is a web site where you can purchase gifts for subsequent giving
as a tip, if the web site operator "adds" new gift options to the site,
that could also be described as "新しいギフトを投入" - so the term is
highly ambiguous with regard to how it should be translated in any given
context.

Herman Kahn

Warren Smith

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Jan 25, 2022, 6:31:32 PMJan 25
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This is very interesting, Herman. Thank you for sending. I had no idea.


Warren

PS: Very odd. Your comment at 5:06 PM (EST) (below) sorted into my Junk
E-mail folder, while your comment 15 minutes later did not. I wonder what
the difference was....


-----------
I don't know if this is particularly relevant to how the terms involved
should be translated, but it seems you are suggesting that the term ギフ
ト投入 is being used with the intent of avoiding the appearance of
paying money for sex-related services rendered by a cam girl.

In my understanding of the matter, ギフト投入 would indicate that this
is talking about a 投げ銭アプリ or other electronic system with
analogous functionality, which is not particularly limited to or
associated with cam girls or anything having to do with sex, and the
term ギフト (or often also アイテム) is not being used to avoid the
appearance of "buying sex", but rather because this is not a sale and
purchase transaction, and thus could be deemed a 為替取引, i.e. a case
of merely transferring funds, and if A transfers funds (資金) to B via a
system operated by C, unless C is a bank or 資金移動業者, it would be
unlawful for C to perform, or accept requests to perform, such a
transaction in Japan, and the regulatory hurdles to become a bank, etc.
in Japan are very high, so as a workaround, there is this scheme of not
simply sending money from A to B via C, but rather having A purchase an
electronic item/gift from C, and then having C separately pay money to
B, under whatever arrangement, in an amount not necessarily directly
linked to the value of the items/gifts in question.

Herman Kahn

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Warren Smith

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Jan 25, 2022, 6:53:13 PMJan 25
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Thanks again, Herman.

I think the word "tips" entered into the conversation because (as was
established in this thread by cptandrw, for example) that seems to be the
word we tend to use in English for the behavior being described. This left
the tension between the English word commonly used to describe the action,
and the Japanese word, "投入" (especially when the direct object of 投入 was
a "gift," where the gift was being given to a performer to "add excitement"
to the performance, and also to produce a 演出.)

I ended up just saying "give" the gift. This was not ideal, but any other
option I came up with required too much idiomaticity loss.

The translation for 演出 was a problem as well. In the embodiments this was
that something appeared in the performance (a lighting effect, a sound
effect, etc.), so I ended up calling this an "effect." But I couldn't shake
the feeling that the ability to have an impact on the actions of the
performer herself might fall within the scope of the 演出 (especially given
the notion that the person who gives a "tip" to a Cam Girl is called a
"teller," as someone pointed out in the thread, presumably because that
person purchases the right to "tell" the Cam Girl what to do... something
that might be considered 演出, I think). My choice of "effect" might have
been suboptimal, but again was the best I could come up with.

At any rate, this was several patents ago now -- but still was the most
interesting thing I have translated in a while.

Thank you all for your help!

W

---------------

Mika J.

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Jan 25, 2022, 7:08:41 PMJan 25
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Warrenさん、お仕事の方はもうお済みとのこと、
話の波に乗れずに今更ですみませんが、
投入といえば自動販売機の「コイン投入」がぽっと連想されるので
その筋ならば単にadd more などというのもありかな~と思いました。

 Mika Jarmusz 
 


 


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Herman

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Jan 25, 2022, 7:34:01 PMJan 25
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On 1/25/22 3:53 PM, Warren Smith wrote:
>
>
> Thanks again, Herman.
>
> I think the word "tips" entered into the conversation because (as was
> established in this thread by cptandrw, for example) that seems to be the
> word we tend to use in English for the behavior being described. This left
> the tension between the English word commonly used to describe the action,
> and the Japanese word, "投入" (especially when the direct object of 投入 was
> a "gift," where the gift was being given to a performer to "add excitement"
> to the performance, and also to produce a 演出.)
>
> I ended up just saying "give" the gift. This was not ideal, but any other
> option I came up with required too much idiomaticity loss.
>
> The translation for 演出 was a problem as well. In the embodiments this was
> that something appeared in the performance (a lighting effect, a sound
> effect, etc.), so I ended up calling this an "effect." But I couldn't shake
> the feeling that the ability to have an impact on the actions of the
> performer herself might fall within the scope of the 演出 (especially given
> the notion that the person who gives a "tip" to a Cam Girl is called a
> "teller," as someone pointed out in the thread, presumably because that
> person purchases the right to "tell" the Cam Girl what to do... something
> that might be considered 演出, I think). My choice of "effect" might have
> been suboptimal, but again was the best I could come up with.
>

I would probably use "presentation" for 演出. Although just from the
term 演出 itself, it is not completely clear whether this is something
done by the computer system or by the live performer, I would construe
this to mean that the computer system displays "Warren just gave you a
gift" (or something to that effect) on the screen when the gift is
submitted.

Herman Kahn

James Split

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Jan 25, 2022, 7:54:52 PMJan 25
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This concept could also be applicable to "streaming" or "streamers" in general, who may not be "performers" in the traditional sense, but are doing something that somebody else is watching for entertainment.

For example, on Twitch it is popular to simple watch people play video games. I am astounded that this can be profitable, but apparently it is. 

A quick search revealed that in addition to tip/donate, "cheering" is apparently also used in reference to giving a steamer on-platform currency to support/incentivize their endeavors.

James Split

Warren Smith

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Jan 25, 2022, 8:11:50 PMJan 25
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Yeah. My son (a professional game designer) pointed that out to me. This "cheering" is likely the intended meaning of another word in this patent, "応援" (which I had originally thought might be "support"). Apparently in the gamer crowd "cheer" has become a transitive verb (and 応援 uses the particle). I could not get myself to go so far as to treat it as a transitive verb though (yeah -- I am a dinosaur), so I ended up translating  "performerを応援する" as "cheer for the performer" instead of "cheer the performer." (The GNU version of the Collaborative International Dictionary of English does indeed list "cheer" as a transitive verb, but I just don't feel it...)

 

W

 


John Stroman

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Jan 26, 2022, 6:32:24 AMJan 26
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Colleagues,
Very enlightening discussion. Welcome to the luddite club, Warren.
Two further comments: 
(1) I guess "gift" has been used for about 400 years as a transitive verb (e.g., to gift someone something) although I cringe when I hear it. Its recent popularity apparently stems from a Seinfield episode in which it was used repeatedly with "regift" and "degift."
(2) I find nothing unnatural about cheering  someone ON to do something, but again in my Midwestern tongue, the term "egg someone on" is often used in conversation, especially when adolescents are urging one another to do something daring and probably foolish.
John Stroman
----------------

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