low carbon society dilemma

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Mari Hodges

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Jul 2, 2008, 11:49:50 PM7/2/08
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Hello all,
 
Well, the phrase is a dead giveaway of who the client is, but I really need some opinions on this one. I am fighting use of the phrase 'low carbon society' and proposed a couple alternative write-arounds like 'decarbonization' (which was rejected), 'our societies must reduce their dependency on carbon,' 'society must use less carbon,' and 'greatly reduced use of carbon is urgently needed...' The client went ahead and printed up the final draft of something that is going to be printed for the public as:
Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth’s environment in the future, and Low Carbon Society is urgently needed if we are to stave off its effects.
 
You can guess which part the client changed (read 'Low Carbon Society').
 
Aside from the erroneous grammar and stilted sentence that that leaves us with, I am emphatically against the use of "xx society," which is a lazy chokuyaku of 何とか社会. We don't express that in the same way in English. But as the client pointed out, it gets a lot of Google hits. A good majority of these are related to Japan, so it is clear that this chokuyaku is being used by others, including the media. And in fact, some of the Google hits are US and UK sites that use the phrase "Low Carbon Society." I think this is also lazy media picking up on a lazily translated catch phrase used by a certain international company.
 
What do others think about this? I have already mentioned to my contact that if the sentence is kept that way, I don't want my name in any way associated with the translation (I have a good relationship with my contact and can trust that they will convey that appropriately!). This translation of XX社会 really, really irks me.
 
What would you all do? Please respond quickly, it's going to print!
 
Regards,
Mari Hodges

Mari Hodges

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:23:35 AM7/3/08
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Here is an example of a site in English that uses 'low carbon society.'
 
 
They also use 'Towards a Low Carbon Society,' though, which I think is also rather poor writing, as we discussed in Fred's workshop at the last IJET.
 
Any thoughts? Is everyone at lunch? :)
 
Mari Hodges
 

Edward Lipsett /t

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:30:46 AM7/3/08
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Hi, Mari.

I'm a tad busy, but I suspect if you Google "carbon bank" (in quotes) you'll
find out what the English-speaking world uses to talk about this.

----------
Edward Lipsett, Intercom, Ltd.
translation @intercomltd.com
Publishing: http://www.kurodahan.com
Translation & layout: http://www.intercomltd.com


Tom Donahue

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:36:23 AM7/3/08
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> Any thoughts? Is everyone at lunch? :)

Well, you could point out that they are missing the indefinite
article, and even with it, when they capitalize it like that,
it sounds like an organization.

Like we have a Japan Society to give scholarships to the
Japanologists, so we need a Low Carbon Society
to promote Low Carbon.

--
Tom Donahue

petercl...@hotmail.com

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:40:45 AM7/3/08
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Dear Mari,
There is a lot of discussion about the kind of 'economy' we should
have for a sustainable future. I have a feeiling we (NSEs) use
'economy' in a similar way Japanese writers use "社会" in this case.
I googled "carbon free economy" (which would be carbon-free economy in
the real world) and "carbonless economy" and found plenty of
legitimate-looking resources.

Personally, I am looking forward to a hydrogen economy.

Peter Clark

Jeremy Angel

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:49:27 AM7/3/08
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Hi Mari,

Yes, I had the same resistance to "ubiquitous society" (and
"ubiquitous broadband society"), and put my foot down until every last
mention of it was changed. In general, I agree with your views on
avoiding like the plague chokying 何とか社会 , and generally follow the
same rule, but I don't feel the same antagonism towards "low carbon
society" because it makes a lot more sense that "ubiquitous society"
and its ilk. In fact Google Desktop Search just informed me on the
results page that I have used the very same wording (minus the
ridiculous capitals) twice so far in actual jobs (which put me among
the guilty, eh?)
I don't have time to dig up any definitive evidence, but I can't help
feeling that "low carbon society" was around before Japan got its
hands on it, and that the large number of Japanese hits it generates
is due to it having become a kind of buzzword here more than in other
countries.

Nevertheless, your client's suggestion has glaring problems. If your
client insists on low carbon society, I suggest that you try to get
them to at least use it a little more sensibly.

Jeremy Angel

2008/7/3 Mari Hodges <ma...@marihodges.com>:

--
Jeremy Angel
Nagano, Japan

Alan Siegrist

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Jul 3, 2008, 12:56:59 AM7/3/08
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I personally am not completely sure what Mari is getting so excited about.

I guess "low carbon" is pretty high lately on the buzzword list among the
professional word buzzers, with low carbon this and low carbon that being
all the rage. There was even a "Low Carbon Economy Act" introduced into the
US Congress in 2007. So government types in Japan like to append "society"
to their buzzwords. What else is new?

It's all environmental policy pooh-bah gobbledygook to me, so I refuse to
get worked up about it.

There even happens to be a certain Dr. Neil Strachan, Senior Research Fellow
at King's College London that appears to be quite happy with "Low Carbon
Society" (capitalized as if this were some sort of Important New Concept).
See:
http://www.azocleantech.com/details.asp?newsID=2791

But if Mari wants this to be the cross she wants to die on, by all means
please be my guest.

Regards,

Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA


Mari Hodges

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Jul 3, 2008, 1:01:06 AM7/3/08
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That was my thought exactly!

Mari Hodges

Mari Hodges

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Jul 3, 2008, 1:05:16 AM7/3/08
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> There even happens to be a certain Dr. Neil Strachan, Senior Research
> Fellow
> at King's College London that appears to be quite happy with "Low Carbon
> Society" (capitalized as if this were some sort of Important New Concept).
...

> But if Mari wants this to be the cross she wants to die on, by all means
> please be my guest.

> Regards,
>
> Alan Siegrist
> Orinda, CA, USA

<G> Yes, it is the particular one I have chosen to make a crusade about!
Aside from anything else it could have wrong with it, it just sounds plain
wrong.

Mari Hodges

Richard Thieme

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Jul 3, 2008, 1:07:36 AM7/3/08
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----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Alan Siegrist" <AlanFS...@Comcast.net>
宛先 : <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2008年7月3日 13:56
件名 : RE: low carbon society dilemma


>
> I personally am not completely sure what Mari is getting so excited about.
>
> I guess "low carbon" is pretty high lately on the buzzword list among the
> professional word buzzers, with low carbon this and low carbon that being
> all the rage. There was even a "Low Carbon Economy Act" introduced into
> the
> US Congress in 2007. So government types in Japan like to append "society"
> to their buzzwords. What else is new?
>

Small lightbulb here. Japanese, and maybe others, tend to use "society" in
situations in which Americans, and maybe others, would use "economy." I had
never thought of that.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

Jim Lockhart

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Jul 3, 2008, 2:34:19 AM7/3/08
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On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:56:59 -0700
Alan Siegrist wrote:

> I personally am not completely sure what Mari is getting so excited about.
>
> I guess "low carbon" is pretty high lately on the buzzword list among the
> professional word buzzers, with low carbon this and low carbon that being
> all the rage. There was even a "Low Carbon Economy Act" introduced into the
> US Congress in 2007. So government types in Japan like to append "society"
> to their buzzwords. What else is new?

I tend to agree with Alan here (and Jeremy) on low carbon society, though
I believe "low carbon economy" is more common in native English.

I think Marie's hunch about 社会 ≒ economy, although information
society seems to be the exception.

I suspect Mari's suggestions may have been rejected by the client by her
suggestions focused on carbon-based inputs, whereas the focus of "low
carbon economy" tends to be on emissions, specifically of CO2. Less
dependency on carbon-based fuels is one of several ways, but not the
only way, to achieve a "low carbon economy". (Another expression I
recall seeing is "low carbon-intensity.)

Unlike Alan, though, I don't think this is just gobbledegook--I'm all
for hydrogen, closed-loop materials, zero-waste/zero-emissions, and renewable
fuels, environmentally friendly, low-stupidity economies.

--Jim Lockhart


Matt Stanton

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Jul 3, 2008, 3:08:31 AM7/3/08
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Cambridge University is already talking about a "zero carbon society":

http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=48535

Nice idea, but how on earth are we going to survive without food?

Matt Stanton

Richard Thieme

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Jul 3, 2008, 3:16:49 AM7/3/08
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----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Matt Stanton" <matt...@gmail.com>
宛先 : "Honyaku E<>J translation list" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2008年7月3日 16:08
件名 : Re: low carbon society dilemma


>
> Cambridge University is already talking about a "zero carbon society":
>
> http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=48535
>
> Nice idea, but how on earth are we going to survive without food?
>

http://autofeed.msn.co.in/pandoraV15/output/30833603-F7A3-43B9-8D4B-C46CD80D933D.asp

Regards,

Richard Thieme

Kurt (www.jtranslate.com)

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Jul 3, 2008, 4:38:36 AM7/3/08
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This is a big theme for the company where I work and is referred to by
words such as "carbon neutral" or "sustainability" . Another
frequently used term is simply.

Low carbon is not a term I have used.
What does this "low carbon" actually mean? It means "reduce carbon
emissions" - therefore, you might also consider "reduced carbon
emission society" or something similar.

As others have posted, English writers typically don't use this
"society" word as much as their Japanese counterparts, so if I were
doing a full edit job with lots of room for creativity, I would
probably ditch the word "society" altogether and opt for something
else like "a carbon neutral economy" or "green growth."


On Jul 3, 4:16 pm, "Richard Thieme" <rdthi...@gol.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> 送信者 : "Matt Stanton" <mattst...@gmail.com>
> 宛先 : "Honyaku E<>J translation list" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
> 送信日時 : 2008年7月3日 16:08
> 件名 : Re: low carbon society dilemma
>
> > Cambridge University is already talking about a "zero carbon society":
>
> >http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=48535
>
> > Nice idea, but how on earth are we going to survive without food?
>
> http://autofeed.msn.co.in/pandoraV15/output/30833603-F7A3-43B9-8D4B-C...
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Thieme- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven

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Jul 3, 2008, 4:56:26 AM7/3/08
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-On [20080703 10:38], Kurt (www.jtranslate.com) (kurt.h...@gmail.com) wrote:
>I would probably ditch the word "society" altogether and opt for something
>else like "a carbon neutral economy" or "green growth."

The more important thing to wonder in this case is whether the term
'society' refers to more than just an economic market.

When you say economy you already invoke the image of buying and selling,
market working, capitalism, and so on.

If you use society you are moving beyond that and into the normal lives of
everybody and you are not just talking about economics. In my understanding,
which might be flawed of course, society is a superset of economy.

Hypothesis: does a Japanese person view the world around him in a more
humanist (I am missing a more adequate word to properly express what I mean)
form and thus referring to it at large with 'society' and does an American
person look at it through the lens of capitalism?
Do note I do not mean it in any way short of trying to determine if it is a
cultural bias towards the words used, which does have its repercussions for
the terms with which to translate it.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
No one can find me, here in my Soul...

Darren Cook

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Jul 3, 2008, 5:18:06 AM7/3/08
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> The more important thing to wonder in this case is whether the term
> 'society' refers to more than just an economic market.
> ...

> Hypothesis: does a Japanese person view the world around him in a more
> humanist (I am missing a more adequate word to properly express what I mean)

Holistic?

Interesting idea.

Darren

--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux, ...)

Jim Lockhart

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Jul 3, 2008, 5:44:21 AM7/3/08
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On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:56:26 +0200
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote:

> Do note I do not mean it in any way short of trying to determine if it is a
> cultural bias towards the words used, which does have its repercussions for
> the terms with which to translate it.

In German, what the Japanese call 循環型社会 is called
Kreislaufwirtschaft--i.e., Wirtschaft, not Gesellschaft.

Further, in AmE (at least), when we say something like "green economy,"
"economy" includes the societal aspects as well as the business aspects
of trying to go green. For example, households separating their garbage
into recyclables and combustables, is seen as an economic activity
rather than a "social/社会的" activity. I don't think this has much to
do with capitalism or the capitalistic nature of, say, American society.

Similarly, I think it is a misunderstanding to interpret 社会 as
referring exclusively to societal activities--I think it encompasses
economic ones as well--the societal aspects of business activity, if you
will.

HTH,

--Jim Lockhart


Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven

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Jul 3, 2008, 7:47:42 AM7/3/08
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-On [20080703 11:44], Jim Lockhart (jamesal...@gmail.com) wrote:
>In German, what the Japanese call 循環型社会 is called
>Kreislaufwirtschaft--i.e., Wirtschaft, not Gesellschaft.

Very interesting Jim, I need to make a mental note of that.

>Further, in AmE (at least), when we say something like "green economy,"
>"economy" includes the societal aspects as well as the business aspects
>of trying to go green. For example, households separating their garbage
>into recyclables and combustables, is seen as an economic activity
>rather than a "social/社会的" activity. I don't think this has much to
>do with capitalism or the capitalistic nature of, say, American society.

So the term economy in AmE seems to involve more than just what we here
call 'economie'. I think the term is even more encompassing than what
economy stands for in Australian or British English (can a native from there
please verify this claim of mine).
Such recycling and related things are commonly categorized here having to do
with the 'milieu'. (What was that common term in Japan for not wasting
things, もてない?)
You have a point there Jim when describing it as an economic activity.

>Similarly, I think it is a misunderstanding to interpret 社会 as
>referring exclusively to societal activities--I think it encompasses
>economic ones as well--the societal aspects of business activity, if you
>will.

Yes, sorry, perhaps I was not overly clear there when I said superset. I
meant society at large, including businesses as well.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B

Lead us to the place, guide us with your grace, to a place where we'll
be safe...

Jim Lockhart

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Jul 3, 2008, 8:13:36 AM7/3/08
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On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:47:42 +0200
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote:

> So the term economy in AmE seems to involve more than just what we here
> call 'economie'. I think the term is even more encompassing than what
> economy stands for in Australian or British English (can a native from there
> please verify this claim of mine).

Perhaps so+ I can't say as I have no real feel for Nl: economie. But my
impression of AmE: economy is that it is broader than, i.e., De:
Oekonomie, which--like Jp: 経済--would be more like "business" in AmE.

(I write AmE here because I don't know whether my visceral understanding
extends to BrE/CommE, though I think it probably does.)

> Such recycling and related things are commonly categorized here having to do
> with the 'milieu'. (What was that common term in Japan for not wasting
> things, もてない?)
> You have a point there Jim when describing it as an economic activity.

もったいない is the expression I think you mean.


> >Similarly, I think it is a misunderstanding to interpret 社会 as
> >referring exclusively to societal activities--I think it encompasses
> >economic ones as well--the societal aspects of business activity, if you
> >will.
>
> Yes, sorry, perhaps I was not overly clear there when I said superset. I
> meant society at large, including businesses as well.

No, I was agreeing with you. My point was meant as a generalization
about what I see as most people's (translators') understand of 社会.

HTH,
--Jim Lockhart


Laurie Berman (Sekiguchi)

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Jul 3, 2008, 9:11:50 AM7/3/08
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On 2008/07/02, at 23:49, Mari Hodges wrote:
 
Aside from the erroneous grammar and stilted sentence that that leaves us with, I am emphatically against the use of "xx society," which is a lazy chokuyaku of 何とか社会. We don't express that in the same way in English. 

Hm. I feel I've been missing something crucial. Does that apply to "information society" as well?

FWIW, while I agree that a reflex chokuyaku reaction is to be avoided in this as in other cases, I'm not sure I agree that "xx society" is by definition unnatural English. I personally don't have a problem with either "information society" or "low carbon society." Although "economy" might be more common in English, the nuance is quite different, and I would understand if the client rejected "economy" in favor of "society." I would simply suggest that the client insert the indefinite article.


Laurie Berman


Alan Siegrist

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Jul 3, 2008, 9:41:36 AM7/3/08
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Jim Lockhart writes:

> Unlike Alan, though, I don't think this is just gobbledegook--I'm all
> for hydrogen, closed-loop materials, zero-waste/zero-emissions, and
> renewable fuels, environmentally friendly, low-stupidity economies.

Please do not misunderstand me. I too am quite convinced of the reality of
the crisis of global climate change that we are facing. I respect the work
of the good environmental scientists that have identified the problem and
now we must come up with efficient solutions to the problem without wrecking
the global economy. But all the slogans, ecobabble and environmental
gobbledygook in the world will not solve the problem.

"Zero carbon society" indeed. Are we humans now supposed to stop respiring
carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? Shall we now transform into
silicon-based lifeforms?

Jean-Christophe Helary

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Jul 3, 2008, 10:01:46 AM7/3/08
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On 3 juil. 08, at 20:47, Jim Lockhart wrote:

> Similarly, I think it is a misunderstanding to interpret 社会 as
> referring exclusively to societal activities--I think it encompasses
> economic ones as well--the societal aspects of business activity, if
> you
> will.

Societies are markets where all the goods are not monetized. Human
activity is all about exchanges. That results in modifications of each
and every one's (financial/cultural/intellectual/...) capital.

We tend to see "economy" as limited to the monetized aspect of the
exchanges but 1) much more than appears to be is monetized and thus
linked to that specific vision of "economy" and 2) most of non
monetized exchanges are closely linked to monetized exchanges.

So translating 社会 as economy should not be an issue in a lot of
cases.

Besides, in the example given (low carbon society) it is specifically
the model of economic development that is targeted: permanent growth
through the use of unlimited carbon based fossil energy, readily
available at a very low price.

Jean-Christophe Helary

------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com/

Jean-Christophe Helary

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Jul 3, 2008, 10:05:17 AM7/3/08
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On 3 juil. 08, at 22:41, Alan Siegrist wrote:

> "Zero carbon society" indeed. Are we humans now supposed to stop
> respiring
> carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? Shall we now transform into
> silicon-based lifeforms?


No need for that, but eating much less beef, will definitely
contribute to lowering the level of fart-produced green-house gases...

Jim Lockhart

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Jul 3, 2008, 10:11:56 AM7/3/08
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On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 06:41:36 -0700
Alan Siegrist wrote:

> Jim Lockhart writes:
>
> > Unlike Alan, though, I don't think this is just gobbledegook--I'm all
> > for hydrogen, closed-loop materials, zero-waste/zero-emissions, and
> > renewable fuels, environmentally friendly, low-stupidity economies.
>
> Please do not misunderstand me. I too am quite convinced of the reality of
> the crisis of global climate change that we are facing. I respect the work
> of the good environmental scientists that have identified the problem and
> now we must come up with efficient solutions to the problem without wrecking
> the global economy. But all the slogans, ecobabble and environmental
> gobbledygook in the world will not solve the problem.

My take is closer to yours than you think, hence the list item in my
list! <g>

Now there saying it's all because of carbon dioxide. But remember how
just a few years ago, it was chlorofluorocarbons? Now that they've
smashed the CFC industry, now they're turning to CO2!


> "Zero carbon society" indeed. Are we humans now supposed to stop respiring
> carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? Shall we now transform into
> silicon-based lifeforms?

Some lefties are probably thinking just that. I'd sure like to see them
demonstrate it.

Later,

----------------------------------------------
Jim Lockhart
40-6 Myoken
Kamikoiji, Miyano-shita
Yamaguchi, Yamaguchi 753-0011 JPN

http://picasaweb.google.co.jp/JamesALockhart

Tel. 050-5539-8028
Skype: jamesalockhart
----------------------------------------------

Matt Stanton

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Jul 3, 2008, 10:29:59 AM7/3/08
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I was very busy with work today and didn't have time to give Mari my
thoughts. I would like to do that now, though it may be too late.

"Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth’s
environment in the future, and Low Carbon Society is urgently needed
if we are to stave off its effects."

This is indeed awful, and I agree that something like

"Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth’s
environment in the future, and our societies must urgently reduce
their dependency on carbon if we are to stave off its effects."

would be better.

But I think

"Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth’s
environment in the future, and the realization of a low carbon society
is urgently needed if we are to stave off its effects."

is also OK. Maybe a little less natural, but I think it actually
captures the writer's intention better, as it emphasizes his/her
feeling that we need to create a completely new way of living. As is
often the case, what you sacrifice in elegance you make up for in
fidelity.

Whether the phrase "low carbon society" originated in Japan or not, I
don't know. But the Google search shows that it has a lot of currency
in English, especially in the UK. My prime minister even used the term
in a speech he gave on Saturday:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page15846.asp

"The fact is that a low carbon society will not emerge from thinking
business as usual."

So, if I were you I'd be cooperative. Just say that while you
personally don't like the expression because you feel it sounds a bit
stilted in English, if the client really wants to use it, they can use
it this way or that way.

BTW, "towards a *** society" also has a lot of currency in English. I
searched for such expressions on Google and found loads of them:

"Towards a (smokefree, post carbon, happier, post-secular, data
analytic, sustainable information, wisdom based, global, learning,
just, successful, fully literate, etc.) society"

None of these originated in Japan.

Limiting the frequency of chokuyakus is what's important when trying
to create translations that read naturally. The odd "it cannot be
denied that" or "it is no exaggeration to say" is fine (the fact that
the chokuyaky even pops into your head means it WILL have some
currency), but if you let them get onto every page, the document can
start to drift into the realm of translationese. The key is knowing
when enough's enough.

Matt Stanton

Laurie Berman (Sekiguchi)

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Jul 3, 2008, 1:30:49 PM7/3/08
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BTW, it seems to me that "sustainable society" is a clear example of
a "xx society" construction that is accepted and widely used in
current English (in Googits, it has a slight edge over "sustainable
economy). It follows that there could be others.

That said, I still get stuck on 循環型社会.


Laurie Berman
berma...@comcast.net


Don Graham

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Jul 3, 2008, 7:31:54 PM7/3/08
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Mari,

You have communicated your dislike of the term "Low Carbon Society" to
the client but at the end of the day it is their document and they are
free to follow their own preferences over those of their translator.

Cheers,
Don


Mari Hodges wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Well, the phrase is a dead giveaway of who the client is, but I really need some opinions on this one. I am fighting use of the phrase 'low carbon society' and proposed a couple alternative write-arounds like 'decarbonization' (which was rejected), 'our societies must reduce their dependency on carbon,' 'society must use less carbon,' and 'greatly reduced use of carbon is urgently needed...' The client went ahead and printed up the final draft of something that is going to be printed for the public as:
> Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth $B!G (Bs environment in the future, and Low Carbon Society is urgently needed if we are to stave off its effects.
>
> You can guess which part the client changed (read 'Low Carbon Society').
>
> Aside from the erroneous grammar and stilted sentence that that leaves us with, I am emphatically against the use of "xx society," which is a lazy chokuyaku of $B2?$H$+<R2q (B. We don't express that in the same way in English. But as the client pointed out, it gets a lot of Google hits. A good majority of these are related to Japan, so it is clear that this chokuyaku is being used by others, including the media. And in fact, some of the Google hits are US and UK sites that use the phrase "Low Carbon Society." I think this is also lazy media picking up on a lazily translated catch phrase used by a certain international company.
>
> What do others think about this? I have already mentioned to my contact that if the sentence is kept that way, I don't want my name in any way associated with the translation (I have a good relationship with my contact and can trust that they will convey that appropriately!). This translation of XX $B<R2q (B really, really irks me.

Mari Hodges

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Jul 3, 2008, 8:02:32 PM7/3/08
to hon...@googlegroups.com
True enough, and I imagine they will, though I hope I have convinced them!
<g>

Thank you everyone for lots of great imput and an interesting and
informative discussion.

Best regards,
Mari


----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Graham" <dcgr...@optusnet.com.au>
To: "Honyaku E<>J translation list" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: low carbon society dilemma


>
> Mari,
>
> You have communicated your dislike of the term "Low Carbon Society" to
> the client but at the end of the day it is their document and they are
> free to follow their own preferences over those of their translator.
>
> Cheers,
> Don
>
>
> Mari Hodges wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Well, the phrase is a dead giveaway of who the client is, but I really
>> need some opinions on this one. I am fighting use of the phrase 'low
>> carbon society' and proposed a couple alternative write-arounds like
>> 'decarbonization' (which was rejected), 'our societies must reduce their
>> dependency on carbon,' 'society must use less carbon,' and 'greatly
>> reduced use of carbon is urgently needed...' The client went ahead and
>> printed up the final draft of something that is going to be printed for
>> the public as:

>> Global warming is expected to cause drastic changes in our Earth’s

>> environment in the future, and Low Carbon Society is urgently needed if
>> we are to stave off its effects.
>>
>> You can guess which part the client changed (read 'Low Carbon Society').
>>
>> Aside from the erroneous grammar and stilted sentence that that leaves us
>> with, I am emphatically against the use of "xx society," which is a lazy

>> chokuyaku of 何とか社会. We don't express that in the same way in

>> English. But as the client pointed out, it gets a lot of Google hits. A
>> good majority of these are related to Japan, so it is clear that this
>> chokuyaku is being used by others, including the media. And in fact, some
>> of the Google hits are US and UK sites that use the phrase "Low Carbon
>> Society." I think this is also lazy media picking up on a lazily
>> translated catch phrase used by a certain international company.
>>
>> What do others think about this? I have already mentioned to my contact
>> that if the sentence is kept that way, I don't want my name in any way
>> associated with the translation (I have a good relationship with my
>> contact and can trust that they will convey that appropriately!). This

>> translation of XX社会 really, really irks me.

pg...@gol.com

unread,
Jul 4, 2008, 6:04:14 AM7/4/08
to hon...@googlegroups.com
It also could reduce the amount of organic manure produced for fertilizing
crops, such as the principal component of baked beans. <g>

But perhaps we woulsn't want to cut down too much on such hi-C dairy
products as milk for children and yoghurt and cheeses for adults.
Perry Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Christophe Helary" <fus...@mx6.tiki.ne.jp>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: low carbon society dilemma


>
>

Dale Ponte

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Jul 4, 2008, 8:19:17 PM7/4/08
to Honyaku E<>J translation list
Laurie Berman (Sekiguchi) mentions 循環型社会.

I like the sound of "society that conforms to" for starters. As for
tying on the 循環 concept, ideas without context abound..

I contemplate "civilization" for 社会, given the right english in the
right situation. For example a certain couching could tone it down.
Plop it into a lazy-boy of words.

~
Dale

Jeremy Whipple

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Jul 4, 2008, 8:41:22 PM7/4/08
to hon...@googlegroups.com
On 2008-07-04 2:30 +0900 (JST), Laurie Berman wrote:

> That said, I still get stuck on 循環型社会.

Indeed. I see that I've translated it as "recycling-oriented society" in the
past.

Japan's Ministry of the Environment seems to like "recycling-based society,"
as in "Basic Law on Establishing a Recycling-Based Society."
http://www.env.go.jp/recycle/low-e.pdf

Meanwhile, the EU apparently thinks that "recycling society" is OK (though
of course they're not specifically translating the above Japanese term). See
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1673&format=HT
ML&aged=1&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

It's interesting to look at how the EU handles this in various other
languages. Of the ones I checked my favorite is the Italian version: " una
società che ricicla," literally, "a society that recycles" -- which I think
may more natural in English than any of the above!

FWIW

--
Jeremy Whipple
Setagaya-ku, Tokyo


Mari Hodges

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Jul 4, 2008, 8:58:20 PM7/4/08
to hon...@googlegroups.com
A 'recycling society' is ok because 'recycling' is a verb that modifies
society. That's what I don't like about these 'low carbon,' 'ubiquitous,'
etc. (sorry, nothing's coming to me at the moment) (ubiquitous society
because it's not society that is ubiquitous). It doesn't usually make sense
to line up nouns in English.

Mari Hodges


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Whipple" <jwhi...@gol.com>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: low carbon society dilemma


>


> On 2008-07-04 2:30 +0900 (JST), Laurie Berman wrote:
>

>> That said, I still get stuck on $Bj@%'mr!<i~6i!"%;h>!& (B


>
> Indeed. I see that I've translated it as "recycling-oriented society" in
> the
> past.
>
> Japan's Ministry of the Environment seems to like "recycling-based
> society,"
> as in "Basic Law on Establishing a Recycling-Based Society."
> http://www.env.go.jp/recycle/low-e.pdf
>
> Meanwhile, the EU apparently thinks that "recycling society" is OK (though
> of course they're not specifically translating the above Japanese term).
> See
> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1673&format=HT
> ML&aged=1&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
>
> It's interesting to look at how the EU handles this in various other
> languages. Of the ones I checked my favorite is the Italian version: " una

> societ $B%F (B� che ricicla," literally, "a society that recycles" -- which I

Leanne Ogasawara

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Jul 4, 2008, 9:14:22 PM7/4/08
to Honyaku E<>J translation list
Just to chime in-- I also don't find anything unnatural about low-
carbon society. It is a slogan that when really broken down probably--
as Alan is hinting-- breaks down. At the same time, if I read the
phrase in a document it would not stop me in my tracks. I personally
would keep it. And, this is just my take, but I think low-carbon
society has quite a different nuance than low-carbon economy. In this
case, probably you could go with either, but I do think the former has
more of a nuance of societal efforts including conservation
activities, while the latter brings to mind the carbon-trading issue.

Just some thoughts,

All the best,
Leanne Ogasawara
Tochigi

Matt Stanton

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Jul 4, 2008, 9:43:52 PM7/4/08
to Honyaku E<>J translation list
> A 'recycling society' is ok because 'recycling' is a verb that modifies
> society. That's what I don't like about these 'low carbon,' 'ubiquitous,'
> etc. (sorry, nothing's coming to me at the moment) (ubiquitous society
> because it's not society that is ubiquitous). It doesn't usually make sense
> to line up nouns in English.
>
> Mari Hodges

You may not like "low-carbon society," and it's not for me to tell you
what to like and what not to like, but the above argument doesn't make
any sense. You're basically saying that "low-carbon society" would be
OK if recast as "low-carbon-using/consuming/emitting" society. But to
me, the latter ideas are just unnecessarily wordy.

Do you object to "low-cost carrier"? Do you think it should be "low-
costing carrier"?

Matt Stanton

Tom Donahue

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Jul 4, 2008, 10:32:13 PM7/4/08
to hon...@googlegroups.com
If I could chip in again too, 低炭素社会 came up in a post
last year by Mick Corliss, who was translating the report of
the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change).
He didn't care for "low carbon society" either.

But when you look at the official announcement about this group
www.env.go.jp/earth/ondanka/2050proj/press/index.html
低炭素社会 (LCS) is mentioned at the very top, in 5 out of
the 6 goals (目的).
It also occurs all over the place in documents from the
British members of the group. So it looks to me like the
Japanese and British governments have decided that this
is what it's going to be, and there's not a lot of choice
about it.

That said, there is still stuff we can do. To me
"a low carbon society is urgently needed" sounds unbearably
clunky (Great idea, where can we get one? I'll take one
myself. In fact, I'll take two.)
It needs to be rewritten. Perhaps by adding "realization",
as suggested by Matt, or by finding a better home for
"urgent". For example "urgent action" gets lots of
hits when paired with "low carbon society".

Probably too late to help with the printed version, but
just some thoughts about general operating procedures.

--
Tom Donahue