Chemistry Question -- Average Added Molar Number...

[Warren Smith]

付加モル数

 

 

When I search the corpus of translated patents, I find many different ways for rendering this phrase. None of them resonate with me as sounding correct.

 

For example, there is the following (from Weblio):

［Ｒは炭素数８〜２０のアルキル基またはアルケニル基；ｌ、ｍはオキシエチレン基の平均付加モル数で、０．５〜１．５、ｌ＋ｍ＝１〜３］

[With the provision that in formula (1), R is an 8-20C alkyl or alkenyl group; each of l and m, which independently denotes an average addition mole number of an oxyethylene group, is 0.5-1.5 and l+m=1 to 3].

（式中、Ｒは水素原子又は炭素数１〜３のアルキル基、ｐ、ｑ、ｘ、ｙは各ユニットの平均付加モル数を表わし、ｐは１〜５０、ｑは０〜２０、ｘは１〜４００、ｙは１〜４０の範囲の数であり、重合形態はランダム付加、ブロック付加どちらでもよい。）

In the formula, R is H or a 1-3C alkyl; p, q, x and y are each an average addition molar number of each unit; p is 1-50; q is 0-20; x is 1-400; y is 1-40; and the polymerization form may be random addition or block addition.

"Addition molar number" seems (at a glance, at least) to be limited to J-E translations.

The same is true for "added molar number" (with the exception of one book that uses this term).

 

Is the following talk-around correct (for the first example, above)? "...with l and m representing the average number of moles of oxyethylene groups added" (This seems quite verbose... There ought to be a shorter way to say this....)

 

Any chemistry experts out there to help me out?

 

Thanks.

 

Warren

 

[Herman]

On 04/11/15 12:45, Warren Smith wrote:
> 付加モル数

> Is the following talk-around correct (for the first example, above)?
> "...with l and m representing the average number of moles of oxyethylene
> groups added" (This seems quite verbose... There ought to be a shorter
> way to say this....)

Yes, "number of moles added" is correct for 付加モル数.

Herman Kahn

[Warren Smith]

Yes, "number of moles added" is correct for 付加モル数.

Herman Kahn

-----

Thanks, Herman.

[Matthew Schlecht]

     I second this opinion

     "Addition molar number" and "added molar number" don't make any sense in English.  They are essentially untrained machine translation output.

Matthew Schlecht, PhD
Word Alchemy
Newark, DE, USA
wordalchemytranslation.com

[Warren Smith]

     "Addition molar number" and "added molar number" don't make any sense in English.  They are essentially untrained machine translation output.

-------

It is amazing how many hits these phrases get: 18,900 and 2,420, respectively. These are in filed patents (and pages referencing filed patents).

 

Shocking, actually.

 

But I would guess that this is not from untrained machine translation output -- these bad translations are from humans that don't understand idiomatic expression in the art. What is worrisome (or relieving, if you are not a fan of machine translation), is that these are being used for machine translation INPUT. Yes -- these are the training sentences for machine translation. Unfortunately, because these phrases are now in the reference corpus for even human translators (hey -- they are what I found first when I was looking for the right way to describe the concept), they will be infecting human translators as well.

 

This is why people should be very, very hesitant to translate outside of their field of industrial experience (ironically noting that, indeed, I am straying somewhat myself at the moment...)

 

W

 

PS: By the way (also in this document) -- While 下4ケタ表示 unquestionably is a four-digit display (and is glossed that way in at least one dictionary), what is the "下" in this phrase? (Why is it there? What does it do?) 

[Matthew Schlecht]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Warren Smith <warren...@comcast.net> wrote:

     "Addition molar number" and "added molar number" don't make any sense in English.  They are essentially untrained machine translation output.

-------

It is amazing how many hits these phrases get: 18,900 and 2,420, respectively. These are in filed patents (and pages referencing filed patents).

 

Shocking, actually.

     Indeed!

 

But I would guess that this is not from untrained machine translation output -- these bad translations are from humans that don't understand idiomatic expression in the art. What is worrisome (or relieving, if you are not a fan of machine translation), is that these are being used for machine translation INPUT. Yes -- these are the training sentences for machine translation.

     Even if one is not an expert, the phrase should still sound like human English, whereas these sound like machine English.

     Perhaps I should have written "poorly-trained" or "deficiently trained".  However, training that employs phrases put together by non-experts are indistinguishable from "untrained", IMO.  Blind leading the blind.

 

Unfortunately, because these phrases are now in the reference corpus for even human translators (hey -- they are what I found first when I was looking for the right way to describe the concept), they will be infecting human translators as well.

     It will infect translators who don't know better, or don't think to vet an odd sounding phrase with more experienced colleagues.

[Herman]

> PS: By the way (also in this document) -- While 下4ケタ表示
> unquestionably is a four-digit display (and is glossed that way in at
> least one dictionary), what is the "下" in this phrase? (Why is it
> there? What does it do?)
>

下4ケタ表示 implies that if the number is 12345, the display will show
"2345", i.e. the lower four digits. Car odometers for example operate
this way.

Herman Kahn

[timl...@aol.com]

I agree with Hermann and Matthew. "Average number of moles of oxyethylene groups added" doesn't seem verbose to me, and has the great merit of clarity.

Tim Leeney

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