こだわり

[Paul King]

Hello Everyone:

My wife and I were watching Japanese television a couple nights ago and I
heard the word こ だわり about 20 times in one show alone. This is a word
that eludes me. The dictionary definitions only add to the confusion. My
wife, a NJS, always shrugs it off and says she doesn't know how to say it in
English (lived in America for over 30 years) One of the phrases was

こ だわりのある味
"A taste that sticks in my memory"? " a taste that I can vividly recall"?

Some other advertising slogans that I came across.

静岡こだわりの逸品ガイド
国産牛ほか、こだわりの肉
こだわりの健康卵を使用してます
こだわった商品って見ているだけでも楽しい
こだわりの強さ
あくまで勝ちにこだわる
こだわりにこだわる
こだわり采配シミュレーション

and this passage from one of the sites.

こだわりの味共同組合は、安心・安全な国産原料にこだわり、なるべく食品添加物を
使わず、その食品の持つ本来の「自然の味そのまんま」の味を安価にご提供する、ま
じめな食品メーカーの集まりです.

How do you translate こだわり and こだわる

It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this
true?

TIA

Just wondering how long I have to study Japanese to really understand it..ly


Paul King

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[Steven P. Venti]

"Paul King" <myl...@nichibei.com> wrote:
> How do you translate こだわり and こだわる

To me, the basic meaning is "to be particular about" or "to insist on having
something a particular way," and the question of whether this is
considered a positive or a negative trait can only be determined by the
context.

Another thing that makes this term tricky is that the most idiomatic
renderings in English are often quite different grammatically from the
Japanese.

For example, こだわりのある味 might be rendered "a taste (flavor) the
chef is quite fussy about," but I think that in many cases, a more natural
idiom might be "the chef is very particular about what goes into this
recipe."

> It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this
> true?

I've seen こだわりの強い性格 used to characterize people who are
susceptible to depression or other mental health issues, so I'm
disinclined to attribute any connotations to the grammatical form.

Anyway, just another point on the graph for you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti
spv...@bhk-limited.com

No electrons have been harmed, truths distorted, nor personalities
defamed in the posting of this message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Marc Adler]

2010/5/3 Paul King <myl...@nichibei.com>

 

It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this
true?

No. The phrase こだわる男 in an ad for an expensive watch, say, would be "a man of discernment" or "a man of taste."

--
Marc Adler
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adlerpacific

[Robert Bailey]

> Hello Everyone:
>
> My wife and I were watching Japanese television a couple nights ago and I
> heard the word こ だわり about 20 times in one show alone. This is a word
> that eludes me. The dictionary definitions only add to the confusion. My
> wife, a NJS, always shrugs it off and says she doesn't know how to say it in
> English (lived in America for over 30 years) One of the phrases was
>
> こ だわりのある味
> "A taste that sticks in my memory"? " a taste that I can vividly recall"?
>
> Some other advertising slogans that I came across.
>
> 静岡こだわりの逸品ガイド
> 国産牛ほか、こだわりの肉

...

Paul,

Kodawari/kodawaru is a concept that gives me fits at times, because I
often find it cannot be handled with just a word or two in English. My
understanding is that it conveys the idea of "not settling (for less
than the best, etc.)", of "having discriminating tastes", "selecting
with care (or being selected with care)", or other such variations.
I didn't check my dictionaries before writing this, but as I recall,
"meticulousness" is a word often listed -- but seldom useful.

> It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this
> true?

Negative? I guess, in the sense that someone might, say, "stubbornly
refuse to compromise" or "refuse to relax one's standards in the face
of 無理-ness." ;)

hth,

Rob

[Mika Jarmusz]

> It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this true?

Hi Paul.  As Steven wrote, in こだわりのある味, it's the chef that is こだわる, and 味 is the result of it.

こだわる (verb) is about that person being, for lack of better words, obsessively unyielding.  Such personal trait can be taken both ways, as Marc noted.

こだわり(の), on the other hand, is about the end result (product) of that person being stubbornly determined, i.e., something that should be deserving of appreciation. 
こんな感じで、どうですか？

Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
       English to Japanese Translator
       http://inJapanese.us

[Stephen A. Carter]

On 10/05/04 08:40, Paul King wrote:
> How do you translate こだわり and こだわる

In marketing copy, depending on whether the seller or buyer is the one
with the こだわり, I find that words like "uncompromising,"
"discriminating," "commitment," particular" often get the sense across
-- "our commitment to X means uncompromising Y for the discriminating Zer."

--
Stephen A. Carter
sca...@hticn.com
Nagoya, Japan

[Paul King]

Another interesting usage is in the translation of the Vince Lombardi Quote.

The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment
to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor.

その人の人生の質は、目標として選んだ分野はともかく、
卓越性へのこだわりの強さに比例する。

If you check dictionaries you get the verb or noun forms of obsessive,
fastidious, stubborn, get hung up on, to dwell upon, obstinate, hard headed,
etc.

A little more web research and it appears that before 1970 こだわる was used
in a more negative manner whereas こだわり was more neutral. On a site about
word histories I found

最近、「こだわる」という言葉が褒め言葉や宣伝文句として使われているが、若い世
代に比べて年配の世代はこの用法に抵抗を感じるという。詳細は考察で後述するが、
考えてみると確かに良い意味で使われる「こだわる」はおかしな表現である

Also according to a Buddhist philosophy site こだわる also conveys the
meaning of "attachment to the world" that Buddhism teaches one to release.

Steve's comment about the differences in grammatical usage is spot on. I
find I have the most trouble with these kinds of grammar confusing terms. I
remember being in a Bank in Yamagata about 30 years ago and they had a sign
that said "今を喜ぶ" which I found to be intuitively understandable and yet
I have not yet found an English equivalent that I think has the same flavor.

Hope I am not wasting everyone's time, but the list seemed quiet.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Paul King

[Ken Kikuchi]

Much has been told, thus the following is just an additional small comment:

「こだわる」 generally means __to be very concerned with something__
and 「こだわり」 means a particular concern someone has with something
or a state in which someone is very concerned with something.
「こだわる」 and 「こだわり」 were originally used only negatively,
but nowadays the concern can be either positive or negative.

こだわりのある味:
Taste (of some food) (created through a special cooking process)
a cook is very proud of.

こだわりの味:
(Same as the above or)
Special taste someone is very fond of; He/she would not
accept any other taste for some food of interest.

味にこだわる
1) Someone is very concerned with taste (in cooking or eating).

こだわりの肉
Very good meat (in particular beef) selected very carefully

こだわりの健康卵を使用してます
We use only very good healthy-eggs selected very carefully

(Be lenient about my bad English, but I hope you understand
my feeling about 「こだわり」　and 「こだわる」.

Ken Kikuchi

[Mark Spahn]

> I remember being in a Bank in Yamagata about 30 years ago and they had a
> sign
> that said "今を喜ぶ" which I found to be intuitively understandable and
> yet
> I have not yet found an English equivalent that I think has the same
> flavor.

> Paul King

Your intuition is better than mine. Whad does "今を喜ぶ" mean?
Guesses: Enjoy the present. Savor the moment. Cherish your 'now'.
Was the sign advertising something? What?
Someone who is too intent on recording the big events of their life
-- one's wedding, summiting Mt. Everest -- is living
their own life vicariously.
I suppose that's just the opposite of 喜ぶing your 今.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

[Shinya Suzuki]

Paul King wrote:

> It seems that こだわる has more negative connotations than こだわり, is this true?

Probably, in a statistical sense. Here is my hypothesis. Being a verb
こだわる needs a subject, a person doing the action. こだわり is
(almost like) an abstract noun that tends to hide or obscure the
person(s) involved. The Japanese sensibility appreciates things
produced or executed with attention to fine details, which certainly
requires the producer's こだわり. Yet the same sensibility dislikes
things that evoke feelings of 作為, artificiality, human intervention,
etc. This is why Japanese like こだわりの things without こだわる人.

Shinya Suzuki

The hypothesis serves its function best when it's disproved (a la
Popper).

[Kirill Sereda]

Rob writes:
>>I didn't check my dictionaries before writing this, but as I recall, "meticulousness" is a word often listed -- but seldom useful.

I would rather use "fastidious(ness)", "hard to please", "choosy", "sophisticated" (a very good word to consider in advertisement-related contexts).

Kirill

[Kirill Sereda]

Ken writes:
>>こだわりのある味:
Sophisticated taste?

Kirill

[Kirill Sereda]

Mark writes:
>>Whad does "今を喜ぶ" mean? Guesses: Enjoy the present. Savor the moment. Cherish your 'now'.

Or "Carpe diem" -- "Seize the Day": admonition to seize the pleasures of the moment without concern for the future (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

Kirill

[Marc Adler]

2010/5/4 Shinya Suzuki <CXP0...@nifty.ne.jp>

The hypothesis serves its function best when it's disproved (a la
Popper).

To disprove this, I'd need statistics, which I don't have, but my feeling is that when someone insists on quality, say, that means someone else is going to have to work harder. It depends on which side of the equation you're on. If you're the one who demands quality, then it's a good thing. If you're the one who has to meet that demand, it's not a good thing.

--
Marc Adler
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adlerpacific

[Paul King]

> > I remember being in a Bank in Yamagata about 30 years ago and they
> > had a sign that said "今を喜ぶ" which I found to be intuitively
> > understandable and yet I have not yet found an English
> equivalent that
> > I think has the same flavor.
> > Paul King
>
> Your intuition is better than mine. Whad does "今を喜ぶ" mean?
> Guesses: Enjoy the present. Savor the moment. Cherish your 'now'.
> Was the sign advertising something? What?
> Someone who is too intent on recording the big events of their life
> -- one's wedding, summiting Mt. Everest -- is living their
> own life vicariously.
> I suppose that's just the opposite of 喜ぶing your 今.
> -- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

It was a calligraphy painting (kakejiku) by a famous (or so I was told by
the bank employee) artist.

I think you get the feel of it with your "Enjoy the present. Savor the
moment. Cherish your 'now'." comments other stabs at it might be something
like "Appreciate the moment" or "Stop and smell the roses"

Because of the change in grammar it is really hard to express how this makes
me feel when I read it.

Does anyone else have some of these grammar shifting expressions?

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the various inputs and the
expansion of my understanding of these terms.

Paul King

[Marc Adler]

2010/5/4 Paul King <myl...@nichibei.com>

Does anyone else have some of these grammar shifting expressions?

I don't know if it's so much grammar, as the fact that they're treating 今 as a noun. The equivalent English 'now' is traditionally only an adverb. Japanese doesn't have that restriction, however, even for other words which are only adverbs in English, such as ここ.

--
Marc Adler
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adlerpacific

[Laurie Berman]

Generally speaking, I think the idea of uncompromising is spot-on, as
Stephen Carter suggested. (Not to say that other words would not work
equally well or better depending on the context.)

Maybe it's just me, but when I hear the word (in either form), what
comes to mind is the 職人 ideal, like the potter who would
sooner break an imperfect pot than sell it or the ramen chef-owner
who only uses the best ingredients (not to mention the guy who throws
people out of his restaurant if they don't show proper respect for
the food). Obviously this is something the Japanese have
traditionally admired, but conventional wisdom has it that the
younger generation is more laid back and apt to go with the ほど
ほど. So, I'm thinking that how positively one reacts to the
word might differ by generation, and I would be interested in
knowing whether こだわり/る is used as much when targeting
a younger demographic as when targeting baby boomers.

(BTW, 今を喜ぶ is also clear to me intuitively, and I don't
think one has to go far to find comparable expressions in English.
Even the "dog whisperer" goes on about being in the "here and now."
With or without the 喜ぶ, I think they're getting at the same
thing.)

Laurie Berman

[Mika Jarmusz]

>Yet the same sensibility dislikes things that evoke feelings of 作為, artificiality, human intervention, etc. This is why Japanese like こだわりの things without こだわる人.

I see it differently.  When the readers see こだわりの味, they know that there is (are) こだわる人 behind it.  That's how they (or I) know that this particular 味 is deserving of appreciation.  In other words, in こだわりの味,  the spotlight directs away from the 味 and shines RIGHT ONTO THE PERSON (who is hidden out of sight), which in turn "glows" the 味 from behind to showcase it in soft, indirect lighting :)

あと、「こだわる」という言葉に対する印象のよしあしを評価する前に、
まず「何に」こだわるかを考えてみたとき、
こだわる対象がつまらないものであれば、こだわる姿そのものも
つまらない、みみっちいものになります。これは世代をこえた普遍の印象ではないでしょうか。

こだわる対象が「職」「技」「芸」などであれば
世代を問わず好印象だと思いますが、この連想は
コーヒーなどとの組み合わせが目新しさでヒットしてから定着したのかもしれませんね。
（仮説は反証されて初めて役に立つ、ってことで。）

ちなみに、上の「職」「技」「芸」のリストに最初「道」も入れてみたのですが、
ぴったりこないのではずしました。

「味にこだわる」という表現で「味」を芸だと見ると価値がありますが、
「味なんかどうでもいいのに」という目でみると卑しく映るだけですね。

>"here and now."
いいですね！これを「ここと今」としても全然通じないですよね。

Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
       English to Japanese Translator
       http://inJapanese.us

[Tom Donahue]

Stephen A. Carter:

> -- "our commitment to X means uncompromising Y for the discriminating Zer."

Yes, think luxury hotels or Italian handbags.
The problem is that in Japan everyone is discriminating about everything.

--
Tom Donahue

[Shinya Suzuki]

Mika Jarmusz wrote:

> I see it differently. When the readers see こだわりの味, they know that there is
> (are) こだわる人 behind it. That's how they (or I) know that this particular 味
> is deserving of appreciation. In other words, in こだわりの味, the spotlight
> directs away from the 味 and shines RIGHT ONTO THE PERSON (who is hidden out
> of sight), which in turn "glows" the 味 from behind to showcase it in soft,
> indirect lighting :)

I see your point.

> あと、「こだわる」という言葉に対する印象のよしあしを評価する前に、
> まず「何に」こだわるかを考えてみたとき、
> こだわる対象がつまらないものであれば、こだわる姿そのものも
> つまらない、みみっちいものになります。これは世代をこえた普遍の印象ではないでしょうか。
>
> こだわる対象が「職」「技」「芸」などであれば
> 世代を問わず好印象だと思いますが、この連想は
> コーヒーなどとの組み合わせが目新しさでヒットしてから定着したのかもしれませんね。
> （仮説は反証されて初めて役に立つ、ってことで。）

上記の対象依存仮説のほうが説得力がありますね。んーん、私の仮説はあっけ
なく反証されてしまったようです（ぐすん）。

> 「味にこだわる」という表現で「味」を芸だと見ると価値がありますが、
> 「味なんかどうでもいいのに」という目でみると卑しく映るだけですね。

確かに。ただ、どうして、動詞になると後者の解釈が可能になるのだろう？

(A) こだわりの味：100% positive

(B) 味にこだわる（人）：basically positive, but could be negative

> >"here and now."
> いいですね！これを「ここと今」としても全然通じないですよね。

「今ここに」（681,000 hits）はよく使われていますね。なぜ、空間と時間が
逆になるのだろう？

Shinya Suzuki

[Shinya Suzuki]

Laurie Berman wrote:

> So, I'm thinking that how positively one reacts to the
> word might differ by generation, and I would be interested in
> knowing whether こだわり/る is used as much when targeting
> a younger demographic as when targeting baby boomers.

We need statistics here but Japan's こだわり culture seems to be
flourishing in all generations in different forms (eg, young and
not-so-young otaku).

Shinya Suzuki

[Shinya Suzuki]

Marc Adler wrote:

> To disprove this, I'd need statistics, which I don't have, but my feeling is
> that when someone insists on quality, say, that means someone else is going
> to have to work harder. It depends on which side of the equation you're on.
> If you're the one who demands quality, then it's a good thing. If you're the
> one who has to meet that demand, it's not a good thing.

The chef's こだわり to meet the customer's demand for high quality is
a good thing. As Mika suggested, whether こだわる/り is positive or
negative may largely depend on the evaluator's perception of the
worthiness of that こだわり. (Hmm, this argument seems circular ....)

Shinya Suzuki

[Richard Thieme]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shinya Suzuki" <CXP0...@nifty.ne.jp>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: 縺薙□繧上ｊ


> Marc Adler wrote:
>
>> To disprove this, I'd need statistics, which I don't have, but my feeling
>> is
>> that when someone insists on quality, say, that means someone else is
>> going
>> to have to work harder. It depends on which side of the equation you're
>> on.
>> If you're the one who demands quality, then it's a good thing. If you're
>> the
>> one who has to meet that demand, it's not a good thing.
>
> The chef's こだわり to meet the customer's demand for high quality is
> a good thing. As Mika suggested, whether こだわる/り is positive or
> negative may largely depend on the evaluator's perception of the
> worthiness of that こだわり. (Hmm, this argument seems circular ....)
>

True but I think that for a chef having to deal with 味にこだわりがあるお客さん might not be a good thing.

I think that might be Marc's point anyway.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

[Shinya Suzuki]

I wrote:
> > The chef's こだわり to meet the customer's demand for high quality is
> > a good thing. As Mika suggested, whether こだわる/り is positive or
> > negative may largely depend on the evaluator's perception of the
> > worthiness of that こだわり. (Hmm, this argument seems circular ....)

Richard Thieme wrote:

> True but I think that for a chef having to deal with 味にこだわりがあるお客さん might not be a good thing.
>
> I think that might be Marc's point anyway.

I see. Anyway I think my version of Mika's hypothesis still holds.

Shinya Suzuki

[Minori Utsutsu]

上のように「こだわり」の対象が

「職」「技」「芸」

であれば

 

sense of the craftmanship

 

という訳はいかがでしょうか？

 

宇筒　美紀

[Marc Adler]

2010/5/5 Shinya Suzuki <CXP0...@nifty.ne.jp>

I see. Anyway I think my version of Mika's hypothesis still holds.

こだわりますね！

--
Marc Adler
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adlerpacific