[OT] Foreign people and apartments
Eric Tschetter
I have heard many stories of how foreign people have trouble finding apartments in Japan. Though, having never experienced such issues, I thought they were a thing of the past. Until recently, that is.
I went out looking for an apartment in Tokyo last week and was only able to keep my will power up through two real estate agents. I'm not sure if other people have experienced this, but I basically spent ~2 hours at each realtor sitting there listening to one side of a phone conversation that could have easily been a CD track on auto-repeat, if it wasn't for seeing the human in front of me holding the phone:
Realtor: XXX不動産ですが、そちらのXXX物件について問い合わせたいんですが、アメリカ人の男性のご紹介は大丈夫でしょうか？
Person on the other side says something
Realtor: 難しいですか？分かりました。
My question to the list is about the propriety these phone conversations. I am not exaggerating when I say that >80% of the places that looked like something I would be interested in were not willing to even discuss housing a foreigner. Is such blatant discrimination still legal in Japan? Or, is it one of those things that is illegal, but so commonplace that no one cares?
I ask not so much because I want to shove the law in front of those realtors faces, it is more because I wonder about my standing as a human being in Japan.
Anyway, as I sat there being rejected because of my nationality, I started wondering what would happen if I were to, say, acquire something like the Roppongi Hills residential tower and offer the rooms for like ５万円, but then refuse to rent them out to people with Japanese nationality. I know it's not the way things work in Japan, but I can't help but think that such a case would find its way to the courts.
I know this sounds like a rant, but I am seriously looking for comments on how people deal with/have dealt with this kind of situation.
--Eric Tschetter
er...@nii.ac.jp
Edward Lipsett
> I know this sounds like a rant, but I am seriously looking for comments on how
> people deal with/have dealt with this kind of situation.
What kind of visa are you on, Eric?
With a reasonable long-term visa, a job that Japanese renters can believe is
serious, and a proven ability in conversational Japanese, there is much less
difficulty.
They don't want to rent to Roppongi midnight partiers who do drugs, don't
pay rent and flee overseas when dunned.
Go out of your way to demonstrate that you are a paragon of Japanese-style
trustable sarariman virtue, speak Japanese, and won't ravage any local women
(without permission, at least), and I imagine it'll go ok.
--
Edward Lipsett
Intercom, Ltd.
Fukuoka, Japan
Tel: 092-712-9120
Fax: 092-712-9220
trans...@intercomltd.com
http://www.intercomltd.com
Jacob Dunlap
> Realtor: XXX不動産ですが、そちらのXXX物件について問い合わせたいんですが、
アメリカ人の男性のご紹介は大丈夫でしょうか？
> Person on the other side says something
> Realtor: 難しいですか？分かりました。
First of all, I'm wondering why the realtor is even mentioning the fact that
you are American. If the decision is being based solely on your
nationality, then (as far as I am aware) the behavior in question is
illegal. I am no authority on the matter, but you may wish to have a look
at Arudo Debito's webpage, and in particular this section:
http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#refusedservice
If you have no guarantor or no long-term visa, the issue may be entirely
different, but if this is the entire conversation, well, it stinks to high
heaven.
While I have never experienced such behavior, I am of two minds on this.
One side of me would be livid, and I would raise hell -- accepting such
behavior is esentially condoning it. On the other hand, it's kind of like
having a big sign around a stranger's neck that says "I'm a jerk, so stay
away" -- knowing that your potential landlord is a racist chump may be a
blessing in disguise.
Anyway, good luck in whatever path you decide to take.
Jacob Dunlap
zmcnulty
she may even be saving you a lot of trouble by being up-front with the
landlords that you're a foreigner.
Of course you could simply request they stop providing such details to
the landlords just to see what happens. You could request they tell
landlords you're Chinese, or try telling landlords you're a female
from Russia. It could be an interesting social experiment.
Tadao Kageyama
At 11:38 AM +0900 03/19/07, Eric Tschetter wrote:
......
> Realtor: XXX不動産ですが、そちらのXXX物件について問い合わせたいんですが、アメリカ人の男性のご紹介は大丈夫でしょうか？
> Person on the other side says something
> Realtor: 難しいですか？分かりました。
> I know this sounds like a rant, but I am seriously looking for comments...
二つほど、提案申しあげます。
一、お地元の邦字紙に上記の経緯を投稿し、日本はいったいどうなっているのと、
鋭く難詰します。もちろん日本語で。ただし上のような完璧な日本語を書くと、
読むほうは「だれかに代筆させたな」と思うかもしれず、かえって逆効果に
なるので、わざと2か所ほどに、いかにも非日本語ネイティブが犯すような
間違いを挿入しておきます。真実味が出ます。日本語のうまさが、その間違い
によって、強調されます（スイカに振り掛ける塩のような効果）。
投書主が英語を母国語とする人間であることも、読み手に明確に分かるように
作文することも（後記のように）非常に重要です。
日本の新聞は、匿名でも仮名でも投書を受付けるはずですから、投書が採用に
なっても、XXX不動産から刺客を差し向けられるおそれはないでしょう（本名は
新聞社だけには知らせる要はあるかもしれません。いや、むしろ知らせておく
ことが、のちのちのために必要です）。
投稿が採用された際の効果は？ 物凄いでしょう。想像するだけでも愉快です。
まず、日本人はいまだに人種偏見を改められないのかと、非難轟々の投書が
その新聞にしばらく続くでしょう。20年前にWall Streel Journalの東京派遣
記者がアパート探しで同じような経験をし、その顛末を自分の新聞に書いて、
そのあおりを食らって、しばらくの間米国で日本人が肩身のせまい思いをしました。
あなたの投書も、載せた新聞から他のの紙誌やウェブへも飛火するかもしれ
ません（少なくともWSJのときは、まだウェブはなかった）。全国紙やブログが
このネタを拾い、大きく、大きくテーマを広げていくでしょう。どのように
広げるかも、私には興味があります。
国際的なニュースになる可能性は十分あります。中国や韓国が、格好な日本
攻撃材料を見つけたと、欣喜雀躍するやもしれません。CNNN Tokyoがあなたに
インタビューを申込んでくることも考えられます。
これだけではアパート探しに何の実効もありませんが、続きがあるのです。
効果 その2。こんなに日本語のお上手な英語ネイティブさんなら、家賃など
いらないうから、ぜひうちの家作へお入りくださいませんかという勧誘が、まあ
控えめにみても、10件以下ということはないでしょう。
駅まで徒歩3分、3寝室2バス、サウナ・ワークアウト設備つきで、各室には
光ファイバー端末つき、これで家賃がタダときてますから、こたえられません。
もっともキャッチは、当然、あります。大家の娘に英語を毎日教えることという
条件が、まず十のうち八には付帯するでしょう。
二、別な提案です。お地元選出の国会議員のコネを探して、接触し、不当な扱い
を訴え、善処を要請する。さもないと国際問題にすると脅すこともよいでしょう。
あるベテランがWalter ReedのBuilding18でひどい目にあい、家族からいくら
病院に文句を言ってもカエルにション便であったのが、ホワイトハウスの
スタッフの、そのまたスタッフにコネがあって、その人間に話をしたら、あっと
いう間に解決したという記事を読みました。
米国でさえこうなのですから、ましてや日本では、お偉いさんを動かさないと
自分の思うように、適時に物事を進めることはむずかしいのです。コネです、
すべて。むずかしいですが、コネをさがし、有効に使いましょう。コネ使いが
うまくなると、翻訳など辛気臭くてやっていられなくなるかもしれません。
そっちのほうがはるかに面白いはずですから。
では、ご成功を祈ります。
～～～～～～ Tadao Kageyama, Norwalk, CT ～～～～～～
Victor Shkawrytko
hunting for a very long time, your story is close to a direct replay of what I
(and other foreinger friends of mine) experienced in the past. But, this does
depend to some extent on what kind of place you are looking for and where you
are looking.
After getting apt.-hunting advice from Japanese friends (one who even went with
me) to the effect of: pick an area I want to live in, then visit the real estate
offices in the area, look presentable, speak Japanese, be polite, etc., I found
that the amount of time spent vs the result (=zero) was quite disappointing. I
eventually found, as a close foreigner friend advised at the time, that using
foreigner-oriented real estate agents, such as Ken Corporation, was the most
efficient way to see places that were relatively comfortable for a foreiner in
relatively convenient locations. (I stress relatively because I have no idea
what your desired location or type of apartment is). The downside of using such
an agency is that the rent is often considerably higher than for places
"regular" agents offer. I was fortunate to find a place that I could settle on,
although it is by no means ideal.
There are examples of discriminatory behavior that some are trying to act
against, such as that found on http://www.debito.org/
I know of one Japanese real estate organization that works with agents to smooth
the process for renting to foreigners. Unfortunately, this does not help if the
owner is the source of the problem.
Sorry for the rather pessimistic take. I do wish you the best of success in you
apartment hunt, but I fear your experience may not get much better that it has
been so far. Good luck!
Victor Shkawrytko
Tokyo, Japan
marc...@gmx.yamaha.com
I've had direct experience of this on multiple occasions. In some instances I was renting for myself, in other instances I was attempting to obtain housing for expatriate staff for an IT company I was working for. Roughly half of the landlords refused to deal with with us in the second case, and about a third when I was trying to rent for myself. One landlord even offered to rent a property to me "as a favor," provided I paid about 15% more than he wanted from Japanese tenants.
-Marc Ward, Shizuoka Pref.
Christopher Girsch
Eric:
That really, really sucks.
I have not had such an experience, but I have rented from a person who begrudg
ingly
rented his house to me because my wife is Japanese.
The house was missing locks on the windows, had wires dangerously exposed in t
he
broken outlets on the wall, etc., etc., etc., and of course everything was bla
med on me.
The landlord couldn't stand having me live in that house, so after a year or s
o,
he decided he wanted it empty, and kicked us out - that was me, my wife who wa
s 8
months pregnant at the time, and our four year-old boy.
The house sat empty after that. The final blow was when an old metal latch rus
ted and fell
off a gate. He blamed the rusting on me, and so....out we were.
If such a landlord does not want to rent a room to you, then you do not want t
o rent
from him in the first place. It will be bad news.
However, it sounds like you need to go to a better real estate agent. A good
one would
be eager to get you placed, and if they thought your nationality was a problem
, they
could just not mention it at all. Why did your real estate agent feel a need
to bring it
up in that way? It seems like he was saying: 'you may not want to rent to thi
s guy,
because he is a foreigner' right from the very beginning.
When I lived in Tokyo, I went to this company:
http://www.tokyohousebureau.co.jp/
They specialize in foreigners. They were excellent. They found me a brand-new
house
in Chiba for just over \100,000.
HTH
Chris Girsch
Fred Uleman
around. Keep looking. After a while you will find the right landlord
with the right apartment.
Many years ago, my son (who was born and raised in Japan, speaks
Japanese okay, and is more Japanese than some of the Japanese I know)
encountered this problem. So he found a different (better, in fact)
place. Then, when he moved a few years later, he got a place without
hassle. Luck of the draw.
Still, my attitude is that you don't want to do business with people
who turn you down anyway. Let their apartments go empty.
Sometimes your nationality works against you. Sometimes it works for
you. Hope they even out.
--
Fred Uleman
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Edward Lipsett" <trans...@intercomltd.com>
宛先 : "Honyaku Google" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2007年3月19日 11:43
件名 : Re: [OT] Foreign people and apartments
>
> on 07.3.19 11:38 AM, Eric Tschetter wrote:
>
>> I know this sounds like a rant, but I am seriously looking for comments
>> on how
>> people deal with/have dealt with this kind of situation.
>
> What kind of visa are you on, Eric?
>
> With a reasonable long-term visa, a job that Japanese renters can believe
> is
> serious, and a proven ability in conversational Japanese, there is much
> less
> difficulty.
> They don't want to rent to Roppongi midnight partiers who do drugs, don't
> pay rent and flee overseas when dunned.
>
> Go out of your way to demonstrate that you are a paragon of Japanese-style
> trustable sarariman virtue, speak Japanese, and won't ravage any local
> women
> (without permission, at least), and I imagine it'll go ok.
Another option is just to take a million yen or so and just dump it on the
table. I know people for whom that seems to have worked.
Be careful when you do it, however, that you don't come off like a member of
an organized crime gang.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Ryan Ginstrom
> question to the list is about the propriety these phone conversations.
> I am not exaggerating when I say that >80% of the places that looked
> like something I would be interested in were not willing to even
> discuss housing a foreigner. Is such blatant discrimination still
> legal in Japan? Or, is it one of those things that is illegal, but so
> commonplace that no one cares?
Been there, done that. I'm sure it's illegal, but there you go.
When I first came to Japan, my wife and I looked for about a week before we
could find somebody willing to rent to a foreigner. And the only place that
would rent to us was a ４件長屋 called 大正アパート, located in 大正町 --
and I'm convinced the place must have been built in 大正時代 as well.
It turned out to be pretty cool, though -- the rent was around 30,000
yen/month, you had to go outside and light up the propane heater to heat
your bath (I got a kick out of that), and I got a good look at a part of
Japanese society I otherwise wouldn't have much contact with. But making the
rounds of real-estate agents for a week was highly annoying.
My solution: buy a big house and tell the xenophobes to KMA.
Regards,
Ryan
--
Ryan Ginstrom
trans...@ginstrom.com
http://ginstrom.com/
Mika Jz
????????????????????
????????????(?)??????????
????????????????????????
They just don't know you. ?????
?????????
???????????????
?????????????
Mika Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA
Christopher Girsch
Wanna try that again Mika?
At 15:47 07/03/19, you wrote:
>?????????????
>
>????????????????????
>????????????(?)??????????
>
>????????????????????????
>They just don't know you. ?????
>?????????
>???????????????
>?????????????
Chris
Mika Jz
ではこちらから、もういちど。
－－－－－－－－－－－
知らないものを不審に思う。
これは乳児にも見られる自然な感情ですが、
狭い島国の日本人にはやや（？）この傾向が強いかも。
万事順調にばかりは事は運ばないかもしれませんが、
They just don't know you. ですから、
相手の損ととらえて
がんばって乗り切ってください。
早く見つかるといいですね。
Mika Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA
Mika Jz
Hi Chris! That was a puzzling entry, wasn't it.
Sorry folks.
M
Ｐ．Ｓ．
花前線 のびにのびたり ここも春
きのう州庁舎前を通りかかったら、桜が満開でした！
Malcolm James
> Realtor: XXX不動産ですが、そちらのXXX物件について問い合わせたいんですが、アメリカ人の男性のご紹介は大丈夫でしょうか？
First of all, it sounds as though the realtor you chose didn't have
pre-existing relationships with the landlords of the properties you were
looking at.
Renting recently in a Kyoto suburb, the experience was just the opposite - I
phoned up three realtors, described what I was looking for, and went with
the one that seemed keenest to help. She faxed straight back with details of
3 properties. I made an appointment to see 2 of them the next day, and made
a deal on the second. It all went so smoothly that I used them again when I
rented my office.
The realtor was part of a chain, and had a lively office with a counter
rather than a smoke-filled office with low coffee tables. The business model
seemed well-defined, and they had obviously negotiated all conditions with
the various landlords in advance. (They had their signboards on apartment
blocks throughout the area.)
At no time was there any hint of being treated differently because I'm a
gaijin. For the record, each of the places I eventually chose had a record
of letting to Korean passport holders, so it's quite possible the realtor
cherry-picked the most likely properties. That's her job though. If you have
to sit in the office and take part in the process you might as well phone
the landlords directly yourself.
HTH
Malcolm
PS:
> My question to the list is about the propriety these phone conversations.
Definitely improper, but probably works to your benefit. Find either a
realtor who's already talked to the landlords or a realtor who's better at
PR on your behalf.
________________________________________________
Malcolm James
Fontaine Limited, Kyoto
Japanese to English translation by native speakers
web: http://www.translation.co.jp
Jocelyne Allen
I know this sounds like a rant, but I am seriously looking for comments on how people deal with/have dealt with this kind of situation.
Just to add my voice to the growing chorus, I had pretty much the same experience when I first got an apartment in Tokyo. Before I came to Tokyo, my employer found my housing for me, so if there were any problems, I have no idea. But when I was moving here, I had nothing but trouble. I decided on the neighbourhood that I wanted to live in and went by myself to make the rounds of the estate agents in the area. Most places barely let me in the door. I wish I could say that I was exaggerating, but I literally had agents shaking their heads at me the second I walked in. Of course, it was infuriating, but there's no point in wasting your breath with people like that. I always figure that if people don't want to take my money, it's their loss, not mine.
Eventually, I had a Japanese friend come with me and things went much more smoothly. However, I still ended up having to go to a chain agency (エイブル in case anyone is interested) before I could get anyone to rent to me. I wouldn't call myself a paragon of virtue, but I'm certainly not the Roppongi party girl. I work in-house for a major Japanese company and although accented, my Japanese is generally acknowledged to be good, so I felt like it should not be so difficult to find someplace to live.
The next time I moved, I had no desire to repeat that nightmare, so I went to a foreigner-friendly place right off the bat. It was incredible how easy everything was! I was in and out, papers signed and moved in within two weeks. And my feet didn't hurt from going round to every agency in the neighbourhood.
I agree that this should not be, but laws preventing this kind of thing are almost non-existent and most of us just don't have the time or resources to tackle every agency who turns us away because of our non-Japaneseness, which is I guess why people like Arudou Debito are so important in changing this situation. And I'd love to say more on the topic, but a pile of papers just dropped onto my desk.
Jocelyne Allen
Will Jasprizza
I can see what you're getting at but landlords don't know the bulk of their
tenants, especially in Tokyo, hence the deposit, 敷金、礼金 etc If the
issue was really trust wouldn't the vetting question be "You're not a
politician are you?" <g>
Will
> まあ、久しぶりの見事な化けっぷりだこと！
> ではこちらから、もういちど。
> －－－－－－－－－－－
> 知らないものを不審に思う。
>
> これは乳児にも見られる自然な感情ですが、
> 狭い島国の日本人にはやや（？）この傾向が強いかも。
>
> 万事順調にばかりは事は運ばないかもしれませんが、
> They just don't know you. ですから、
> 相手の損ととらえて
> がんばって乗り切ってください。
> 早く見つかるといいですね。
>
> Mika Jarmusz
> Salem, Oregon USA
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
R Jones
share your pain!
Over the years, I've had to find three apartments (in Tokyo and
surrounding areas) on my own and my experiences are very similar. In
fact, I just went through the same thing a few weeks ago but to make a
long story short, I found a place in Tokyo and will be moving in next
weekend (and I still haven't finished packing...).
Here are some tips I've gathered through experience.
1) Make sure that the real estate agent is eager to find a place for
you.
Because foreigners get rejected so much, some agents don't even make
the effort. If the agent doesn't seem eager to help, go to the next
agency on your list.
2) Find a real estate agent that's been around for a while.
They have the best relationships with the landlords. IIRC, the smaller
the number that appears on the real estate company's business license
(which should be hanging on the wall), the longer its been around.
Actually, I think there was a more concrete rule than this but it
escapes me at the moment.
3) Don't spend all your time at the real estate agency
Spend 45 min to an hour at the agency to show you're generally
interested. After that, tell the agent what you're looking for and let
him/her get back to you in the next few days with foreigner-friendly
apartments. There's no need to stay longer. The agent gets paid to
look for apartments -- you don't!! ;)
4) Do your own searches through the Internet.
at home and iSize are two sites that come to mind.
http://www2.athome.co.jp/index2.html
http://www.isize.jutakujoho.jp/
If you find a property that's marked as chuukai (仲介), print it out and
take it to your real estate agent. He/She will be able to make an
introduction.
5) Go with real estate agencies that are foreigner-friendly.
Here are a few real estate agents that have treated me well over the
years.
* Mini mini (ミニミニ) in Jiyugaoka - This chain specializes in apartments
with zero key money and security deposit. My new apartment came
through them.
* Apaman shop (アパマンショップ) in Meguro - They sent me 11 introductions of
foreigner-friendly apartments. Very impressive! (By "foreigner
friendly," I mean that the agent called the landlord to make sure I
would be able to live there.)
* Prosperite (プロスペリート) in Ikebukuro - They also showed me several
foreigner-friendly apartments.
Good luck!
Robert
pg...@gol.com
realtors/landlords seemed to bend over backward to accommodate me.
Perry Gary
Subject: [OT] Foreign people and apartments
Mary Kennard
I still remember how surprised I was when it first happened to me--I
was looking for an apartment in Saitama, and the first 3 real estate
places I went to just flat-out refused to talk to me--one just crossed
his arms in the だめ、だめ sign. I still harbor suspicions of Saitama....
But the next place I went to, in Machida, was very welcoming. Over
time, you just get a kind of sense for whether the agent is going to
be helpful or not, and I just don't waste any time on the ones who
won't be.
IIRC, it's still not illegal to discriminate on the basis on
nationality here, although my information could be out of date. The
local hostess bar still has a sign up that says "Japanese costumers
(sic) only"--next to the sign announcing the arrival of new talent
from Slovakia and Russia.
For me, though, aside from the sheer injustice of it, it's really just
a nuisance--mostly I have had positive experiences. I think it's a lot
more of a problem for foreigners from China and other Asian countries.
Mary Kennard
Nick Lange
do their homework, wine and dine the landlords, AND will work on your
behalf to negotiate with the landlord. (I had them shift around some
fees for me). Furthermore, their commission is only 50% of your first
months rent.
I used about five different real-estate agencies when I was apartment
hunting last summer and Able came up with the most unique/best hits.
GL,
nick
Kerim Yasar
specialize in catering to foreigners, and I would like to concur that
that's probably the easiest way to go. Not only are they going to be
okay with your nationality, but in most cases you won't be charged 礼金
since they realize that that's something foreigners aren't "used to"
(i.e., something that's blatantly illegal in many other parts of the
world). Generally the lease terms are also more flexible than is
typical in Japan. Basically the joke is on the poor Japanese tenants,
who still have to put up with a real estate system that's highly
inefficient and nearly 100% on the side of the landlords and brokers.
Kerim Yasar
kerimh...@gmail.com
Friedemann Horn
> A few of the replies to your post have mentioned realty companies that
> specialize in catering to foreigners, and I would like to concur that
> that's probably the easiest way to go. Not only are they going to be
> okay with your nationality, but in most cases you won't be charged 礼金
> since they realize that that's something foreigners aren't "used to"
> (i.e., something that's blatantly illegal in many other parts of the
> world). Generally the lease terms are also more flexible than is
> typical in Japan. Basically the joke is on the poor Japanese tenants,
> who still have to put up with a real estate system that's highly
> inefficient and nearly 100% on the side of the landlords and brokers.
This is not entirely correct.
The reason for the high shikikin/reikin in Japan is that tenants
are strongly protected by the law in Japan. Once they're in an
apartment, it is very difficult to get rid of them. Or raise the rent.
Or kick them out to build something new on the same plot.
Thus, shikikin/reikin basically buys you the right to live in a place
for a very long, unspecified time.
Until recently, it was not possible to rent out places for a limited
amount of time, e.g. for one year or two, without automatic renewal
of the contract. This changed only a couple of years ago.
Accordingly, the shikikin/reikin should also have come down a bit,
but I don't know if it actually has. (Somehow I think it might not have).
But this is an additional bargaining chip you could throw in: tell
them you're willing to enter a limited term contract (of, say, two
years) in return for reduced shikikin/reikin.
Incidentally, strong tenant protection is also one of the reasons
why most Japanese apartments are so small: Landlords don't
want families as tenants, because they'll never leave (and sometimes
you want your tenants to leave in order to build something bigger
and nicer).
Friedemann Horn
www.horn-uchida.jp
Chris Green
> nearly 100% on the side of the landlords and brokers
Another perspective:
Here in Australia we need not pay key money or answer questions about
our nationality (although a one-month deposit is standard). In return,
landlords can throw us out on our bums with a month's notice.
In Japan, once you rent a place, you basically own it - if the owner
wants you out, she has to pay. So it's not surprising that landlords
want more money up front and are pickier about who they rent to. (And
no, I'm not condoning racist behavior, which I've experienced plenty
of myself in Tokyo.)
Cheers,
Chris
--
Chris Green
Kerim Yasar
side of the landlords. That said, in New York State, where I live, we
have some of the most stringent tenant protection laws imaginable, and
yet key money is still illegal. One is not a necessary consequence of
the other (and indeed the custom predates the current system of lease
laws). From what I understand, the legality of reikin/shikikin is
questionable even in Japan, but nobody's bothered to challenge it in
court. I have to wonder how much landlords in Japan really have to fear
from their tenants when they (the tenants, that is) are that docile.
You can have rights on paper, but if you're loathe to assert them
because that's just not how things are done, they don't mean very much.
Kerim Yasar
kerimh...@gmail.com
Manako Ihaya
I'll also run this by my connection at the LA Times. (Last time I gave them a suggestion -- and some translations of the government's PR materials -- they ended up doing a feature on Japanese government's proposal to certify Japanese restaurants abroad. I now understand the the government's idea just got nixed.)
I also have experience looking for a rental place with my then American fiance. My being the negotiator seems to have helped, but I think it was a new experience for the real estate agency.
Good luck!
--
Manako Ihaya (aka Monica)
ATA-Certified Japanese-English Translator
Lake Forest, California
Alan Siegrist
> in New York State, where I live, we have some of the most stringent tenant
> protection laws imaginable, and yet key money is still illegal.
Can you please explain the difference between a deposit (such as the first
and last month's rent in advance as a security and cleaning deposit) which
is presumably legal, and this "key money" that you say is illegal?
In California, where I live, such deposits as I describe above are very much
legal and standard operating procedure. There are constant landlord-tenant
disputes about returning the deposit upon move-out, though.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
AlanFS...@Comcast.net
Kerim Yasar
question:
security deposit: 1-2 month's rent, in principle refundable (though as
you say, there are disputes), and must, by law, be held in escrow
key money: 1-6+ month's rent, in principle non-refundable (disputes are
rare to non-existent)
Kerim Yasar
kerimh...@gmail.com
Marc Adler
> Go out of your way to demonstrate that you are a paragon of Japanese-style
> trustable sarariman virtue, speak Japanese, and won't ravage any local women
> (without permission, at least), and I imagine it'll go ok.
The above is scary, scary, scary. Ed's just being realistic, but imagine
the place is Anytown, USA, the year is 1950, and the applicant is black.
"Go out of your way to demonstrate that you are a paragon of white-style
trustable middle-class virture, speak standard American dialect, and
won't ravage any local women (without permission, at least), and I
imagine it'll go ok."
Marc Adler
Eric Tschetter
I am not trying to revive this thread, merely offer my thanks for your comments. I would also like to apologize to the people who felt like this topic should have been placed elsewhere, I chose this forum because I respect the people on this list and I thought that there would be a high probability that yakkers had probably faced and overcome the same situation.
I did get some good information from this thread and it was an eye-opener to realize that this is still a real problem in Japan. I would also like to thank everyone for their introduction of a number of agencies. One piece of information that a number of people said in a number of different ways, but which I feel is worth repeating, is that you should call ahead and allow the realtor to weed out the people who do not deal with foreigners while you are not there. This time, I made the mistake of sitting there while the real estate agents looked up potential chuukai properties, and thus became privy to the real state of affairs.
Also, I would like to clear up a small confusion. A number of people had anecdotes about not being offered service at real estate agents because of their foreignness. This was not my case. All of the real estate people I dealt with personally were very helpful and tried to find me a place. The problem arose when they phoned the landlords and other real estate agents about properties available through chuukai. So, from my experiences, the outright acts of discrimination (i.e., refusing service upon entrance to a place of business) seem to have subsided at least. However, more indirect discrimination still exists and the best way to get around it is to call ahead and allow the real-estate agent to sort it out for you.
Thank you for your time and I once again apologize to the people who felt like this was just a waste of time.
--Eric Tschetter
er...@nii.ac.jp
tok...@gmail.com
here in Japan have, but hey, look on the bright side, at least the
agent actually spoke to you! I once spent fifteen minutes sitting in
front of an agent with my wife while the agent ignored us completely,
never spoke to us directly, and then eventually, as I refused to
simply leave, thudded a book of possible places down on the desk in
front of us without saying anything. I simply walked out without
saying anything as I didn't wish to degrade myself to the same level
as the agent but I was furious about it for weeks. It seems to depend
very much on the agent you choose. Some of them were quite friendly.
Stereotyping of foreigners by the Japanese media doesn't help. I once
paid for a taxi in Sapporo during the world cup and the driver was
completely amazed that I actually paid and didn't simply run away. I
shudder to think what the TV people had been saying.