cho-wa debunking
Madelon Mottet
Japan
is being featured in quite a number of health scams these days.
I am writing a debunking of one of them as a social service.
The story is that there was a secret recipe that was given to
the Tiber Shogun that allowed him to live to over a hundred. This secret
formulation has been passed on, and is called Cho-wa (調和).
I have not been able to find any Japanese shogun who was known by the word Tiger (though there are Tiger generals in China).
So far I have found that the oldest Shogun since 1305 only lived to be 76. In fact of the 30 shoguns during this period, only two lived into their 70’s and only 6 into their 60’s. This is pretty good proof I think that there is no magic formula, and the story is a complete fabrication.
But before going further with this little project, I wonder if I am wrong? Is there some Tiger Shogun in Japan who was known for his age?
--
Madelon Mottet, Ph.D.
Alaska-Southeast Bio-Research
Japanese to English Translating
Mika Jarmusz
I'm afraid I don't have the answer to your question about the historical figure, but as a lay NJS, the word Cho-wa (調和) sounds rather plain and "modifying." How does it appear in your sentence?
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
David Farnsworth
Oh my. Where do these stories come from?
The only connection that I can think of (and it is ridiculously tenuous) is that a Western novel written in the 1970s about an English sailor who was marooned in Japan in the year 1600 changed the name of Ieyasu to Toranaga.
Maybe it is THIS name that has entered the folklore?
That novel generated a made-for-TV miniseries in the late 1970s starring James Franciscus as the sailor. It was predictably awful, but did generate a groundswell of interest in Japan among Americans at that time.
David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224
Alan Siegrist
> I have not been able to find any Japanese shogun who was known by the word
> Tiger (though there are Tiger generals in China).
I am not sure if this helps, but Tokugawa Ieyasu (徳川家康) seems to have at
least occasionally been known by the nickname 寅将軍, apparently because of
the time of his birth at 天文11年（1542年）12月26日の寅の刻（午前4時ごろ）.
(From wikipedia:)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BE%B3%E5%B7%9D%E5%AE%B6%E5%BA%B7
This is mentioned here:
http://happyfusui.exblog.jp/
| のちの徳川家康は“寅将軍”と呼ばれていましたが
So was this putative "Tiger Shogun" supposed to have been Ieyasu? He lived
to the age of 73, not nearly the 100 according to the story.
Good luck at debunking the story, though.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
Mika Jarmusz
to the age of 73, not nearly the 100 according to the story.
However, 73 must have been awfully impressive back then.
Still, anyone can verify 家康's age nowadays, and it's not as impressive as one hundred.
I for one think 10000 years is a good round number for any turtle, but it's not very scientific.
Dale Ponte
http://www.mabels.org.uk/cho-wa-japan-health-formula.htm?
In case not, at the bottom are links to further pages about Tiger
Shogun and Cho-wa, with speculations about his origins, existence, and
extraordinary age. It seems he's just your ordinary modern-day
fabulous taoist sort of longevity superhero, hanging out unglimpsed in
the mountains of Kyushu. My guess is that the "Tiger" associates him
to some degree with the 五虎将軍 spirit of the「三国誌」.
FWIW, a sympathetic gloss or translation of 調和 could run something
like "unification/harmonization of body and spirit."
His roar could probably lay chimes upon a waterfall :O
~
Dale Ponte
Alan Siegrist
> Indeed. Not using the famous name 家康 to support their claim sounds a
> bit elusive, if it was actually him.
Yes, this would be a very roundabout way of referring to a famous man. Perhaps they are being intentionally obscure.
> However, 73 must have been awfully impressive back then.
Indeed.
By the way, I think Madelon is referring to this advertisement:
http://cho-wa.com/
There are several things that seem wrong if this Cho-Wa tea formula or whatever is supposed to be from Japan.
1. The font used for 調和 looks more Chinese than Japanese, especially the left side of the character 調.
2. The surname Kumato is very unlikely for a Japanese person. (I think a "kumato" is actually a kind of tomato.)
3. 寅将軍 seems to get many more Chinese than Japanese hits in Google, although I don't know what exactly 寅将軍 refers to. Perhaps a legendary figure from Chinese myth or something.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Marc Adler
2. The surname Kumato is very unlikely for a Japanese person. (I think a "kumato" is actually a kind of tomato.)
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
nirebloga.wordpress.com
mudawwanatii.wordpress.com
blogsheli.wordpress.com
Alan Siegrist
Marc Adler writes:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Alan Siegrist <AlanFS...@comcast.net> wrote:
2. The surname Kumato is very unlikely for a Japanese person. (I think a
"kumato" is actually a kind of tomato.)
The one thing I've learned about Japanese last names is that almost everything
is possible. Kumato wouldn't surprise me.
This is true. Perhaps it would be best for Madelon to ring up Kumato Labs at the number 800.882.0565 appearing on their contact page, and ask to talk to Dr. Kumato himself. See:
If this putative Kumato person had really gone to the mountain village of Otamaru (I cannot find evidence of such a place) in Nagasaki to meet Sensei and bring back the Cho-Wa formula as in the story found by Dale, he must be Japanese or be able to speak Japanese, so his ability to speak Japanese or a lack thereof would be a simple test of the veracity of the story.
By the way, this bit sounds hokey and is a telltale sign that the author knows little Japanese:
http://www.mabels.org.uk/cho-wa-japan-health-story4.html
| my grandfather would have been ordered to perform Hari Kari (take his own life).
The spelling “Hari Kari” rather than harakiri seems to be a clear sign of a lack of knowledge of Japanese.
Another odd bit is here:
http://www.mabels.org.uk/cho-wa-japan-health-story4.html
| "My family has kept a secret since the reign of the tenth shogun. …
<snip>
| the first person for more than eight hundred years to have the privilege of viewing the golden combination
This means that the tenth shogun, the putative “Tiger Shogun,” would have lived more than eight hundred years ago or before 1209. Although 将軍 was an ordinary term for any sort of military general, the wording “tenth shogun” implies a heredetary line especially a ruling line, which I can only assume that it means specifically the 徳川将軍家. As far as I can tell, the tenth in this line was 徳川家治, but he lived from 1737 to 1786, much later than 1209.
徳川家康 was the first of this line.
Anyway, this story does not seem to add up.
Steven P. Venti
> Although 将軍 was an ordinary term for any sort of military general,
> the wording “tenth shogun” implies a heredetary line especially a
> ruling line, which I can only assume that it means specifically the 徳
> 川将軍家.
Why would you assume that? In fact, Ashikaga Yoshitane (足利 義稙,
1466-1523) was the 10th Shogun of the Ashikaga shogunate. And before
that, Hojo Morotoki 北条師時 (1275-1311) was the tenth Shikken
(1301-1311) of the Kamakura Bakufu. Since the Shikken was a regent for
the Shogun, it might be that someone confused the two terms, but I
digress . . .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven P. Venti
Mail: spv...@bhk-limited.com
Friend of the Devil <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLjVjju7dE>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Siegrist
> > Although 将軍 was an ordinary term for any sort of military general,
> > the wording “tenth shogun” implies a heredetary line especially a
> > ruling line, which I can only assume that it means specifically the
> > 徳川将軍家.
>
> Why would you assume that? In fact, Ashikaga Yoshitane (足利 義稙,
> 1466-1523) was the 10th Shogun of the Ashikaga shogunate.
Good point. The Ashikaga were known as the 足利将軍家.
> And before that, Hojo Morotoki 北条師時 (1275-1311) was the tenth Shikken
> (1301-1311) of the Kamakura Bakufu.
It might be less clear what might be construed as a heredetary line of
Shoguns during the earlier Kamakura shogunate.
Mika Jarmusz
"...the Shogun, who was known as the tiger shogun, never became ill. He was famous in all of Japan for his robust health. He led his samurai into battle when he was in his nineties! The tiger shogun was so healthy that he perished at over one hundred years, not from bad health but from an accident while racing his horse!"
He's got to be a super famous fellow. Just calling him a Shogun won't cut it for the Japanese audience for sure, and as Madelon noted, this character begs to be identified. Sorry for not being helpful at all...
Adam
David Lewis
David Farnsworth
Hmm…
Minamoto Yoritomo is famous for dying due to injuries from a fall off his horse. But he was certainly not in his 90s, or 100s when this happened. (I think that he was about 50 years old at the time.)
Curiouser and curiouser.
David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224
Jerome Conway
> Minamoto Yoritomo is famous for dying due to injuries from a fall off his horse. But he was certainly not in his 90s, or 100s when this happened. (I think that he was about 50 years old at the time.)
Ah, yes:
"Now his straps and stirrups were of cord; and on the right side his sandals were so entangled and twisted that he could not for the heart's blood of him get out his foot. Thus he was dragged about by the filly through the road, scratching his bare breech all the way; she still multiplying her kicks against him, and straying for fear over hedge and ditch, insomuch that she trepanned his thick skull so that his cockle brains were dashed out...Then
his arms fell to pieces, one this way and the other that way; and even
so were his legs served at the same time. Then she made a bloody havoc
with his puddings; and being got to the convent, brought back only his
right foot and twisted sandal, leaving them to guess what was become of
the rest."
Jerome Conway
David Farnsworth
heart... (heh)
(I had a Japanese History professor at UC Berkeley who asserted that this
accident proves that Yoritomo was no warrior, but instead a cultured,
court-bred man who didn't even know how to ride a horse properly. I wasn't
so sure. Even the best horseman can have an accident occasionally...)
David Farnsworth
Tigard OR 97224
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jerome Conway
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:22 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: cho-wa debunking
Alan Siegrist
> Where did you get THAT from?
François Rabelais' _The Fourth Book_, Chapter XIII:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Book/Chapter_XIII
Rabelais was evidently quite a wag.
I wonder if Yoritomo went out in the same manner as Rabelais' Tickletoby.
Jerome Conway
> Where did you get THAT from? This gentle description of his sad end warms my
> heart... (heh)
Rabelais, actually. But I'm sure his sources were impeccable.
Jerome Conway
David Farnsworth
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jerome Conway
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:43 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: cho-wa debunking
David Farnsworth writes:
> Where did you get THAT from? This gentle description of his sad end warms
my
> heart... (heh)
Jerome Conway wrote: Rabelais, actually. But I'm sure his sources were
impeccable.
Me again: Oh Absolutely!
David Farnsworth
Madelon Mottet
Shogun. As no Shogun ever lived into his 80's, the story is a
fabrication no matter who is chosen.
In addition to the non-existent 100+ year old Shogun, I thought the
various indicators that the Cho-wa story was written by a non-
Japanese person were interesting.
I have now finished this anti-scam project. It can be viewed at
www.HealthFoodResearch.com. Now if someone types "cho-wa scam" into
Google, they may get my new website. My site even incorporates a
little penalty clause for people engaged in selling such scam products
using Google adwords.
If anyone else has a health-food product they would like to discredit
(or credit) especially related to Japanese topics, I would be glad to
post them on my new site. If I continue to think about Japanese health
foods and health scams, I may write something on the Okinawa coral
calcium scam, or conversely I might write a tribute to natto.
Madelon Mottet
madelon...@gmail.com
> Anyway, this story does not seem to add up.
>
>
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>If anyone else has a health-food product they would like to discredit
>(or credit) especially related to Japanese topics, I would be glad to
>post them on my new site.
The whole fad about positive ions comes to mind.
Is that still going on in Japan by the way?
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Man is the Dream of the dolphin...