All caps (grr)
Laurie Berman
is the tendency among Japanese organizations to write their English
names using capital letters only, a practice which--especially when
combined with other annoying trends--can lead to such monstrosities
as JPHYTEC. When I'm doing work for a company like J-Power or NTT
Data, and I'm instructed that the whole name has to be in capitals, I
obviously do as I'm told. But in other situations, it seems to me
that I can follow the lead of publications like the New York Times
(which writes them "J-Power" and "NTT Data"), and that by doing so
I'm performing a small service to humanity, because if the current
trend continues, lower case letters are going to disappear from
romaji altogether, and I do not see this as a positive trend from the
standpoint of readability or aesthetics.
So, here I am, doing a document for "NTT DATA" that talks about an
external program called "TABLE FOR TWO" ( http://
www.tablefor2.org/ ), and I'm curious. Knowing that it's probably
going to end up "TABLE FOR TWO" in any case, what would you do?
Laurie Berman
Susan Mast
may.
Susan Mast
> So, here I am, doing a document for "NTT DATA" that talks about an
Marc Adler
www.tablefor2.org/ ), and I'm curious. Knowing that it's probably
going to end up "TABLE FOR TWO" in any case, what would you do?
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
nirebloga.wordpress.com
mudawwanatii.wordpress.com
blogsheli.wordpress.com
Karen Sandness
I think some Japanese corporate types have over-generalized the fact
that company names made up of initials (KFC, JVC, etc.) actually are
all in caps. So, they reason, if JVC is written entirely in caps, why
not SONY or PANASONIC?
I agree with Susan and Marc, though. Unless the client throws a fit
about it (and some do), I use English conventions.
English correctingly yours,
Karen Sandness
Manako Ihaya
I wrote about this several years ago either here or over at the JAT
mailing list, but when I used to do IR and faced with the same
problem, I'd pull my client aside and show them Sony or other well-
known companies' IR materials available on the web, and make them see
that even though the brand name we see on products are all caps, the
name in IR documemts is sensibly represented using conventional
capitalization. They usually back down, thinking if Sony does it, it
must be right.
Of course, this was a few years back so you might want to pick another
company for your argument to carry more weight these days. :-p
Manako Ihaya
Sent from my iPhone (949) 636-1213
On May 6, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Laurie Berman <berma...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>
Tom Donahue
> I think some Japanese corporate types have over-generalized the fact
> that company names made up of initials (KFC, JVC, etc.) actually are
> all in caps. So, they reason, if JVC is written entirely in caps, why
> not SONY or PANASONIC?
My theory is that all caps is nice square letters, which goes very
well typographically when mixed in with Japanese text.
When you see a lower case word in Japanese text it looks like a
bunch of fidgety kids -- standing up, sitting down, dangling their legs.
You want to say "Will you kids just sit still and behave?"
--
Tom Donahue
Tadao Kageyama
> My theory is that all caps is nice square letters, which goes very
> well typographically when mixed in with Japanese text.
日本人は自分たちの会社の名まえ（商法でいう商号）のような
重要なものは、書道でいえば、きっちりした楷書で、誤読され
ないように表記すべきであり、決して崩したり、略したり（行書、
草書）してはいけないのである、よって会社名を英字で表記する
ときは "all CAPs all the time" でなくちゃ...という思考経路を経て：
英字大文字 = 邦字楷書
という等式を「発明」します。そしてそれに従って会社定款で
商号の英字表記を規定し、さらに、その定款を基に法人登記を
してしまいます。
すでに言及された会社のうち2社について調べてみました。
第1条 （商号） 当会社は、ソニー株式会社と称し、英文
では SONY CORPORATION と記載する。
（出所：ソニー株式会社定款第1章総則）
【会社名】株式会社エヌ・ティ・ティ・データ
【英訳名】NTT DATA CORPORATION
（出所：同社平成21年3月期四半期報告書）
クライアントが小文字化に反対する口実には、
「当社登記簿では全部大文字表記ですから、我々のような海外
支店や事務所など、出先の一存では勝手に変えられません」などと
いうのもあるのではないでしょうか。
それに対して、
「いや、NTT DATA CORPORATIONもNTT DataもNTT Data
Corp.も**法律上同一法人と認められ**ます」と翻訳者が保証できる
か、という問題はたしかにあります。あるいは、「たかが広報資料で
あって、裁判所に提出する書類ではないのですから、そこまで厳格に
しなくても、いいんじゃないすか」と対応して、クライアントが
沈黙するかどうか。
そこで実務的には、初出で登記上の正式英字名称を一度だけ
示し、その際「以下 we, our, Sony Corp., Sonyなどはすべて
SONY CORPORATIONを指すものとする」のように「定義」して
しまうか、いずれにしても面倒なことです。
> When you see a lower case word in Japanese text it looks like a
> bunch of fidgety kids -- standing up, sitting down, dangling their legs.
> You want to say "Will you kids just sit still and behave?"
Donahue氏による直上のパラグラフは今年これまでに投稿された
文章（全部を読んでいるわけではないですが）の中でも出色のもの
に属するのではないかと私は思います。
Hats off to Mr. Donahue.
～～～～ Tadao Kageyama, Norwalk, CT, USA ～～～～
Mika Jarmusz
か、という問題はたしかにあります。あるいは、「たかが広報資料で
混乱をきたすようなむやみな略称表記は慎む方が賢明ですが、
小文字表記についてもやはり問題があるのでしょうか？
日本人の目には、横文字でありさえすれば何でも洋風に見えますが、
横文字文化の側から見たとき、「大文字ベタ打ち」は
無骨で融通のきかない、鈍な印象を与えはしないでしょうか？
Laurieさんをはじめ、NESの皆さんはそのあたりをとらえておられるのでは？
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
Jim Lockhart
On Wed, 6 May 2009 17:31:17 -0700
Mika Jarmusz wrote:
> > Corp.も**法律上同一法人と認められ**ます」と翻訳者が保証できる
> か、という問題はたしかにあります。あるいは、「たかが広報資料で
> あって、裁判所に提出する書類ではないのですから、そこまで厳格に...
こんなことありません！裁判所に提出する書類ででも。Nonsense です。
> 混乱をきたすようなむやみな略称表記は慎む方が賢明ですが、
> 小文字表記についてもやはり問題があるのでしょうか？
英語での扱いについては、style guide などを調べなくても普段から読んでいる
新聞や(名のある)雑誌を参考にしてみてください。正式な長い社名を登記本どお
りに表記する場合はほとんどないことに気づくと思います。したとしても、初出
に限る場合が多く、以降は略称で行くのが普通です。いちいち General Motors
Corporation, International Business Machines, Microsoft Corporation と表
記せず General Motors か GM, IBM, Microsoft です。自社の販促資料で ALL
CAPS を使う社名や製品名ででも普通の大文字・小文字の使い分け基準
(capitalization conventions)に従います。
> 日本人の目には、横文字でありさえすれば何でも洋風に見えますが、
> 横文字文化の側から見たとき、「大文字ベタ打ち」は
> 無骨で融通のきかない、鈍な印象を与えはしないでしょうか？
当に無骨で、自己顕示欲の強い、傍若無人な、社会のルールをものともしない、
空気を読めないわがままなヤツの心象を受けます。
> Laurieさんをはじめ、NESの皆さんはそのあたりをとらえておられるのでは？
Actually, Japanese project managers are not the only ones with a
tendency to want to render THEIR OWN NAMES in ALL CAPS--convincing
NES PR types that it is UNSIGHTLY as well as COUNTER-CONVENTIONAL is a
perennial problem for editors at NE publications as well.
Nevertheless, ALL CAPS are used almost solely in product brochures and
certain types of letters. Personally, I find them irritating even there;
but companies nevertheless use them.
When working to dissuade clients from using all caps, I tell them these
things and show them style book examples as well as real examples as
Manako Ihaya recommended.
One book that I've found to be useful in this area--i.e., correcting
misconceptions about typesetting practices--is 欧文書体ーその背景と使い
方 by Akira Kobayashi (小林章), who is type director at Linotype.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4568502772/
HTH,
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo
Joji Matsuo
For example, Keyence likes to advise their translators to use all caps for
product brochures and manuals. But their website (and product brochures and
manuals) actually use both forms (initial cap and all caps) for the company
name.
Kyocera is equally inconsistent (intentional oxymoron there).
Befuddling the situation even more is the fact that their Corporate Summary
page lists their company name in all caps, but their logo in the upper left
ends with a lowercase 'a'. Guess appearance is the rationale for this.
Joji Matsuo
Omaezaki, Shizuoka
Brian Chandler
http://imaginatorium.org/words/descend.htm
Brian Chandler
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>Except that they've had their legs chopped off:
>http://imaginatorium.org/words/descend.htm
Which is one of the reasons I love Meiryo so much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiryo
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
The greatest of faults, I should say, is to be conscious of none...
Brian Chandler
> -On [20090507 07:17], Brian Chandler (imagin...@despammed.com) wrote:
> >Except that they've had their legs chopped off:
> >http://imaginatorium.org/words/descend.htm
>
> Which is one of the reasons I love Meiryo so much.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiryo
themselves, I don't see why I shouldn't) have proper descenders?
Incidentally, what does (from the Wikiarticle) "the baseline was
raised" mean? (Perhaps that the CJK character position was _lowered_
with respect to the baseline?)
Brian Chandler
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>Can you explain? Does Meirio (if they insist on misspelling it
>themselves, I don't see why I shouldn't) have proper descenders?
>
>Incidentally, what does (from the Wikiarticle) "the baseline was
>raised" mean? (Perhaps that the CJK character position was _lowered_
>with respect to the baseline?)
Most of the time a Chinese or Japanese typeface has been given considerate
attention to the design of the kanji/hiragana/katakana and its overal look
and feel. And then latin-based characters are just bolted on without much
care on how the overal look and feel will turn out. With Meiryo they set out
to built a more integrated typeface.
MS Gothic versus Meiryo:
http://artsresearch.brighton.ac.uk/research/academic/kono/portfolio/meiryo/MSGothicVsMeiryo-2006.jpg/image
There's a nice interview @
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/c9Japan/-Meiryo--Windows-Vista-Fonts-update/
that discusses the design.
It's also much nicer on the kanji and kana, in my opinion:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3636/gothicmeiryown8.png
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
As one lamp serves to dispel a thousand years of darkness, so one flash of
wisdom destroys ten thousand years of ignorance...
Matt Stanton
choose the characters that are used to render their names. For
example, a company can choose to call itself すごい社, スゴイ社, or 凄い社, and
the media etc. will respect their wishes. They therefore think that in
English they have the right to call themselves Sugoi, SUGOI, sUgOi, or
whatever. The idea that "convention" has to take precedent is alien to
them, so you need to start by explaining that. Tell them that unless
they're acronyms, names must be rendered with an initial cap only in
running text. Having said that, I remember how annoyed I was a few
years ago to see The Economist consistently rendering Livedoor as
"livedoor," so maybe I'm fighting a losing battle.
Matt Stanton
On May 7, 4:02 am, Laurie Berman <bermagu...@verizon.net> wrote:
> As someone who does a fair amount of IR stuff, one of my major peeves
> is the tendency among Japanese organizations to write their English
> names using capital letters only, a practice which--especially when
> combined with other annoying trends--can lead to such monstrosities
> as JPHYTEC. When I'm doing work for a company like J-Power or NTT
> Data, and I'm instructed that the whole name has to be in capitals, I
> obviously do as I'm told. But in other situations, it seems to me
> that I can follow the lead of publications like the New York Times
> (which writes them "J-Power" and "NTT Data"), and that by doing so
> I'm performing a small service to humanity, because if the current
> trend continues, lower case letters are going to disappear from
> romaji altogether, and I do not see this as a positive trend from the
> standpoint of readability or aesthetics.
>
> So, here I am, doing a document for "NTT DATA" that talks about an
David
My rule of thumb is that if I have specific instructions in advance or
if the Web site, etc., does it in a way I do not agree with, I point
out my disagreement in advance and work it out from there. If I have
no specific instructions I use standard NYT/WSJ style until I am told
to do otherwise. The company is paying me for my advice as well as my
translation, but it is also their "message" as opposed to something
like a news article, so I give my advice but in the end tend to do
what I am told if I want repeat business.
David Spengler
Mika Jarmusz
what I am told if I want repeat business.
そう。だから日本人がもっと気付かないと、どうどうめぐりになるんですよ。
投資家への印象作りにかかわるこのスレッド、
日本語ですべき話が、また英語で花咲いてしまいました。
Brian Chandler showed us:
http://imaginatorium.org/words/descend.htm
ほーんとだ。そわそわと落ち着きのない「小」ども達ですねえ。