Question I should have asked long ago

[Jon Johanning]

Dear Honyakers, 

I am embarrassed not to have raised this question before, but it has long puzzled me.

Many legal docs insert 記 before getting down to business. I have always ignored it because I thought it was not necessary in English, but now and then reviewers ask me why I didn't include in translations. Am I right in ignoring it?

Jon Johanning

jjoha...@igc.org

[Matthew Schlecht]

I get that question occasionally, too.

I saw a very good response to this issue once from someone in this group.

The answer is that the "記" has in fact been translated, and it translates as nothing. 

Matthew Schlecht, PhD
Word Alchemy Translation, Inc.
Newark, DE, USA
wordalchemytranslation.com

[GwenClayton]

Hi Jon

I use the simple word “Details”. No-one has ever queried it.

Best wishes

Gwen 

Gwen Clayton
Legal Translator (German/Japanese - English)
BA (Oxon), Dip Trans (IoLET), CL, MCIL, MITI 

ARSM, Solicitor (non-practising)
+44 7841 387526/+44 20 8870 2748
gwen.c...@yahoo.com
www.perfectlyphrased.com

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[Jon Johanning]

Hi Gwen,

I think I'll use your suggestion, thanks. It should quiet their alarm, anyway.

Jon Johanning

jjoha...@igc.org

[Joe Jones]

The major Japanese law firms (most of whose lawyers have studied and worked in the US for some period of time) tend to omit 記 in English translations. I think this is the best approach from a stylistic perspective. "Details" is not really a correct translation.

[Jon Johanning]

Hi Joe,

I agree that it should be omitted. In the reviser's comments I'm dealing with now, he questioned why it was omitted. I guess I could just tell him it's correct to omit it, but I decided to follow Gwen's suggestion.

Jon Johanning

jjoha...@igc.org

[Herman]

On 2020-11-23 08:11, Joe Jones wrote:
> The major Japanese law firms (most of whose lawyers have studied and
> worked in the US for some period of time) tend to omit 記 in English
> translations. I think this is the best approach from a stylistic
> perspective. "Details" is not really a correct translation.

If a Japanese law firm is producing an English language document in its
name based on a document prepared by the same firm in Japanese, it may
be stylistically appropriate to omit this in accordance with English
language conventions, etc., but in this case, the English language
document is not really a translation, but an independent document.

In the case of a translation by a third party, it would be better to
include something, because otherwise there is the problem that at least
potentially relevant information is being omitted from the translation,
namely, the information that there is a section in the document which
begins with 記 and ends with 以上 (and typically sets forth itemized
information). Putting in something like "Notes" "End of notes", or
whatever is most appropriate in the given context, solves that problem.

Herman Kahn

[Joe Jones]

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:52:11 AM UTC-5 sl...@lmi.net wrote:

In the case of a translation by a third party, it would be better to
include something, because otherwise there is the problem that at least
potentially relevant information is being omitted from the translation,
namely, the information that there is a section in the document which
begins with 記 and ends with 以上 (and typically sets forth itemized
information). Putting in something like "Notes" "End of notes", or
whatever is most appropriate in the given context, solves that problem.

I fail to see how that solves the problem you describe. It just means that your translation has a section called "notes," which will most likely befuddle the reader since the contents are not actually "notes."

[Herman]

For example, if somebody elsewhere says, in reference to some document
you have translated, 「記」があっても「以上」はないことも、ページ欠けが疑われる,
it would not be possible to follow that statement on the basis of the
translation if 記 was omitted entirely from it.

Herman Kahn

[Warren Smith]

Here is my standard translation from a template I have used for many years in translating office actions. (I have done hundreds of these without much comment, although I have one client that prefers "document" over "cited reference").

 

Warren

 

記（引用文献等については引用文献等一覧参照）

Note (For a list of the Cited Reference, see the List of Cited Reference.)

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Warren Smith]

Dang it! I wish I could learn to write emails without embarrassing myself.

 

My actual template reads as follows:

Note (For a list of the Cited References, see the List of Cited References.)

 

 

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[Mark Spahn]

The 記 is a highest-level punctuation mark.  I have seen it "translated"
as a line in which three asterisks are centered on the line, like

                               *   *   *

But this might not mollify a scrutinizer who wonders what the 記 means
and why it has been omitted.

-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

[cpta...@ozemail.com.au]

Just wait till they notice that all the は andが have disappeared too!
Chris

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[Warren Smith]

This is brilliant!

Thanks, Mark.

Warren

-----Original Message-----

The 記 is a highest-level punctuation mark. I have seen it "translated"
as a line in which three asterisks are centered on the line, like

* * *

But this might not mollify a scrutinizer who wonders what the 記 means
and why it has been omitted.

-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[John Stroman]

I have seen 記 translated as "start of official record (report, account, etc.)" and 以上 as "end of official (whatever is used for 記).

I can only speculate, but in the days of typesetting and typewriters, it may have been a device to keep persons with dishonorable intentions from adding something at the top or bottom to change the content.

 John Stroman

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[Fred Uleman]

If you really need something, I suspect the introductory section above the 記 can be worded so that "To Wit" works as a translation for 記.

I am glad neither my work nor my clients require this.

- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
Fred Uleman

[Warren Smith]

I like this, Gwen! I have been using "Note" for a couple of decades, but I like "details" far better.

 

I will change my template (and hopefully my clients will not complain about the change).

 

Warren

 

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From: 'GwenClayton' via Honyaku E<>J translation list [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:58 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question I should have asked long ago

 

Hi Jon

 

I use the simple word “Details”. No-one has ever queried it.

 

Best wishes

 

Gwen 

 

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[Mark Spahn]

The email cited below is the start of a thread under the Subject line
"Question I should have asked long ago".

"Here is a question I should have asked long ago." makes an excellent
first sentence to introduce a topic of discussion.  But it says nothing
about what the question is.  The Subject line in an email should say
what the discussion is about.  Here, a good Subject-line title would be
"記 (ki) in legal documents". (The "(ki)" part is added for sake of
recipients whose email program does not display kanji text.)  Putting a
description of the actual subject in the Subject line helps people in
the future find an old email discussion they are looking for.  A Subject
line like "question" or "inquiry" helps no-one.

Conclusion:  Let's use descriptive Subject lines.

-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

On 11/23/2020 10:51 AM, Jon Johanning wrote: