correlation between A and B with C

[kanji saito]

翻訳者の皆様、お疲れ様です。

次の文章の理解に頭を悩ませています。
A negative correlation was found between the time of diagnosis and the
start of therapy with the number of administered tablets.

上役に相談しましたところ、次のような回答をいただきました。
It probably means that a negative correlation was found between when the
diagnosis was made and how many tablets were prescribed at the start of
therapy. The authors added to say that if it took longer to be
diagnosed and if the patient used the therapy longer, s/he received
fewer tablets.

それに対して、つまり問題の文章の言わんとしているところは、
A negative correlation was found between；
the time of diagnosis and the start of therapy
and
the number of purchased tablets.

でしょうかと質問いたしましたら、

A negative correlation was found between;
the time of diagnosis
and
the number of administered tablets at the start of therapy.
という返答をいただきました。が、今ひとつなにかこう釈然としません。

ご意見をお聞かせいただければ、と思います。

斉藤　完治

[Steve Venti]

kanji saito asks:

> A negative correlation was found between;
> the time of diagnosis
> and
> the number of administered tablets at the start of therapy.

Does the document give any indication as to what "time of diagnosis"
is supposed to mean? Number of minutes spend doing diagnosis? Time of
day at which diagnosis was performed? Time of month or time of year?

I could be wrong, but I think the author is trying to say: the
quantity of medicine given to patients is independent of whether the
doctor spent a lot of time or just a little time figuring out which
medicine to give.

--
Steve Venti

Sometimes the light's all shining on me,
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me . . .
--Robert Hunter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mika Jarmusz]

当てずっぽうですが、
"time of diagnosis"を病状の経過において
診断を行った「時点」と解釈して、
診断が早いほど、治療開始時の投薬量は多く、
診断が手遅れになるほど、なぜか開始時の投薬量は少なくなっている、とすると
（そう書きながら私も半信半疑ですが）文脈的には、どうですか？


--
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator

[David Lewis]

I'd say it neans that the time span between diagnosis and the start of
treatment is negatively correlated (longer = less) with the number of
administered tablets

David Lewis

[Mark Spahn]

Kanji-san,

I too have trouble figuring out what is meant by

     A negative correlation was found between the time of diagnosis and the
     start of therapy with the number of administered tablets.

At first I thought the writer might have been trying to telescope

two sentences into one sentence, namely the two sentences

(1) A negative correlation was found between the time of diagnosis

      with the number of administered tablets

(2) A negative correlation was found between the start of therapy

     with the number of administered tablets

But this makes no sense because correlations are described as either

"the correlation of A with B" or  "the correlation between A and B"

or "the correlation of A and B";

there is no expression "the correlation between A with B".

 

A further problem is that correlations (correlation coefficients)

are between two quantities.

But here "the time of diagnosis" and "the start of therapy"

seem to refer to points in time (時点), 

not quantities/lengths/spans of time (時間).

 

I can't figure out what the writer meant to say.

お手上げ！ I give up.

-- Mark Spahn  (West Seneca, NY)

 

[Tom Donahue]

kanji saito writes:

> A negative correlation was found between the time of diagnosis and
> the start of therapy with the number of administered tablets.

"the time of diagnosis and the start of therapy" are probably
the same time. Therapy starts as soon as it is diagnosed.
As Mika says, this is probably the time from when the person
got sick to the time when the doctor understands the
cause (makes the diagnosis).

As for the meaning, I think two somewhat opposite
interpretations are possible.

a) If the diagnosis is early, then the patient receives fewer
tablets per day. This makes sense to me. If the diagnosis
is late, then the patient is sicker, so he gets more tablets
per day.

b) If the diagnosis is late, then the patient receives
fewer tablets overall, because the treatment doesn't
last as long.

Offhand I would say a), because to me "administered"
seems more like "take four of these tablets every day",
and because I want a positive time to go with the
negative correlation. Early is more positive than late.

There is no other explanation in the vicinity, or use of
words like "early" or "late"?

--
Tom Donahue

[Tom Donahue]

One more possibility.

c) If the diagosis is early, then bugs are zapped before they
multiply, so the total number of tablets is smaller. If the diagnosis is
late, then the disease has spread, so more tablets are needed to
cure it.

--
Tom Donahue

[Steve Venti]

I wrote:

> quantity . . . _is independent_ . . . of time

Sorry, I misunderstood the term "negative correlation." Should have
said "inversely proportional."

[Kirill Sereda]

I vote for (a). To me, a negative correlation is "the more..., the fewer"
etc.

k

[minoru]

I think the source of the problem is the poor writing skill
of the author. The original sentence is very unclear to
me to say the least. It is constructed in such a way as
to compare the two time zones; the time of diagnosis
and the time of the start, which I assume is not what
the author intended. I would assume that the author is
comparing the two different doses, one at the diagnosis
and the other at the start of the therapy and saying
that no positive correlation can be found between them.

Minoru Mochizuki

[kanji saito]

翻訳者の皆様　お疲れ様です。

お忙しいところ、あるいはお休み中のところ、レスをどうもありがとうございま
した。
Markさんの書いてくださったことと僕はほぼ同意見なのですが、あるいは僕の見
落とし、勘違いなどがあるのではないかと思って、皆さんのご意見を伺ったので
した。
皆さんのアドバイスを全て拝見したのですが、件の文章の解釈に関し、これとい
う決定的なものはありませんでしたので、やはり原文に問題がある、という結論
に達しました。
上役（というか正確にはクライアント）より、「A negative correlation was
found between the time of diagnosis and the number of administered
tablets at the start of therapy.」という意味と解せよとの指示もあることで
すので、この線で訳すことにいたしました（まったくもって、釈然といたしませ
んが）。

斉藤　完治

[goodle]

これは患者の回復時間との相関関係と考えるべきではないですか?
診断の早遅と錠数がnegative correlationとなると矛盾すると思うのですが?

[minoru]

Who is this?

On 5月26日, 午後2:26, goodle <otto.rei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> これは患者の回復時間との相関関係と考えるべきではないですか?
> 診断の早遅と錠数がnegative correlationとなると矛盾すると思うのですが?

[Steve Venti]

Someone asks: "Who is this?"

Anyone who has something to add to the discussion of a translation
issue is my all means encouraged to do so.

And as much as I'd prefer not to see too much discussion of what is or
isn't proper etiquette on Honyaku, it is admittedly a legitimate topic
for discussion. Anyone who has read the Honykau FAQ knows that
including your full name in the body of a post is considered a
courtesy to your colleagues, but it is not a requirement for
participation.

So, I'd appreciate it if we would all use our delete buttons
judiciously and avoid making what might be construed as a bellicose or
ad hominem remarks.

"Do you have any field-specific knowledge in this area?" is a
perfectly legitimate question. "Who is this?" is stretching it a bit,
IMHO.

--
Steve Venti, one of three owners

[Matt Stanton]

> And as much as I'd prefer not to see too much discussion of what is or
> isn't proper etiquette on Honyaku, it is admittedly a legitimate topic
> for discussion. Anyone who has read the Honykau FAQ knows that
> including your full name in the body of a post is considered a
> courtesy to your colleagues, but it is not a requirement for
> participation.

> Steve Venti, one of three owners

If possible, I'd also like it everyone used their full name for their
Google Groups user name. As well as this "goodle" person, we have
"minoru" (Minoru Mochizuki), "mark_w..." (Marc ???),
"sls" (Hendrik ???), among others. When you search older threads
through the Google interface, this user name is all you see because
the messages get compacted, so it would be nice if it said exactly who
you are.

Matt Stanton (not an owner or moderator)

[Mika Jarmusz]

原文の過ちは寛大に読み、
翻訳にはなるべく書かないようにしたいものです。

さて、話がややそれるかも知れませんが、
このような文章は、ねじれ文の一種なのでしょうか？

正規に出回っている英語には珍しいですが、
英語から翻訳される日本語にはよくありがちですね。

日本語でこれが発生した場合には
脈絡が見えない人や脈絡を勝手に無視する人が
「別にどこもおかしくないではないか」とごまかしやすく、
悪文・悪訳としては一番質（たち）が悪い
「お手上げ」の文章ですね。

--
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator

inJapanese.us