Re: The meaning of "clergyman"
Canuck in Japan
or business.
e.g.
- in the company of
- （人）と一緒に（いて）、（人）に同行して
More examples here:
http://eow.alc.co.jp/in+the+company+of/UTF-8/
HTH
- Dan, also in Yokohama
-----------------------
Dan Burgess
canuck....@gmail.com
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 00:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Chinami <sugar...@hotmail.co.jp> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I wonder if anyone can help me.
> I am not clear about the meaning of "clergyman" in this sentence.
>
> A clergyman in the company of some chemists said, ‘When you mentioned
> copper nitrates, I thought you were discussing overtime pay for
> policemen.”
>
> A clergyman means "聖職者 in U.S. or 牧師 in the U.K., but if it appears in
> a company,
> who is he/what is his position?
>
> I appreciate if you could let me know the meaning in English (or
> Japanese if you come up with).
>
> This is not so urgent : )
>
> Thanks
> Chinami Beak, Yokohama, Japan
Roland Hechtenberg
> A clergyman means "聖職者 in U.S. or 牧師 in the U.K., but if it appears in
> a company,
> who is he/what is his position?
>
Company in this case is not a "kaisha" or similar, but rather means that
there are several persons, one of them being a clergyman.
Have fun,
Roland
Sam Spiteri
What was your final translation of the sentence?
I've always found it 'almost' impossible to translate jokes/puns like this
one. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough.
-Sam Spiteri
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chinami
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 3:14 AM
To: Honyaku E<>J translation list
Subject: The meaning of "clergyman"
Hello,
I wonder if anyone can help me.
I am not clear about the meaning of "clergyman" in this sentence.
A clergyman in the company of some chemists said, ‘When you mentioned
copper nitrates, I thought you were discussing overtime pay for
policemen.”
a company,
who is he/what is his position?
Japanese if you come up with).
This is not so urgent : )
Thanks
Chinami Beak, Yokohama, Japan
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.48/2479 - Release Date: 11/05/09
14:52:00
kanji saito
化学者と一緒にいた牧師さん、
「君たちがポリエステルというのを聞いて、てっきりエステを受ける警官につい
て議論しているのかと思っていたよ」
斉藤 完治＠あ、座布団ひっぺがされた。
kanji saito
化学者と一緒にいた牧師さん、
「君たちがポリ塩化と言うのを聞いて、てっきり警官の哀しい性を歌った演歌に
ついて議論しているのかと思っていたよ」
斉藤 完治＠退場！
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4580 (20091106) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
Chris Moore
effective in soliciting a grin. Thanks to both the original poster and
to Saito-san.
Chris
Alan Siegrist
ポリエッチレンについては、ご遠慮！
アラン
Minoru Mochizuki
誤って化学者の群れに紛れ込んでしまったお坊さん曰く、
「皆さんがカッパーナイトレイトについて、口角泡を飛ばす
勢いで話していらっしゃるのを聞いて、私はてっきりポリスの
夜勤手当のお話かと思ってしまいました。」(訳注：カップは
警官を意味する俗語、ナイトレイトは夜勤手当ともとれ、
一方、カッパーナイトレイトとは硝酸銅のこと）
I agree that it is normally impossible to translate a
language-dependent joke so that we should avoid at all
means. I thought that the original inquirer is asking us
how to understand the joke, not particularly trying to
translate it.
Minoru Mochizuki
Sam Spiteri
I especially like the clergyman 'hearing' ポリ公のポリfor ポリ塩化のポリ
-Sam Spiteri@unsophisticating yours
Alan Siegrist
> I especially like the clergyman 'hearing' ポリ公のポリfor ポリ塩化のポリ
Somehow I doubt our straitlaced clergyman would be 'hearing' ポリ公 (which
is not a nice thing to call a policeman). More likely the ordinary and
nonjudgmental ポリス or even more likely the shortened ポリ.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
From: "Minoru Mochizuki" <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: The meaning of "clergyman"
>
> As a diehard chokuyakist, I would render it as follows:
>
> 誤って化学者の群れに紛れ込んでしまったお坊さん曰く、
> 「皆さんがカッパーナイトレイトについて、口角泡を飛ばす
> 勢いで話していらっしゃるのを聞いて、私はてっきりポリスの
> 夜勤手当のお話かと思ってしまいました。」(訳注：カップは
> 警官を意味する俗語、ナイトレイトは夜勤手当ともとれ、
> 一方、カッパーナイトレイトとは硝酸銅のこと）
>
> I agree that it is normally impossible to translate a
> language-dependent joke so that we should avoid at all
> means. I thought that the original inquirer is asking us
> how to understand the joke, not particularly trying to
> translate it.
But isn't your 口角泡を飛ばす a very free translation of "mention"?
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Marc Adler
> Somehow I doubt our straitlaced clergyman would be 'hearing' ポリ公 (which
> is not a nice thing to call a policeman). More likely the ordinary and
> nonjudgmental ポリス or even more likely the shortened ポリ.
Just because they don't use the words doesn't mean they don't know them.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
nirebloga.wordpress.com
mudawwanatii.wordpress.com
blogsheli.wordpress.com
Brian Chandler
>
> 誤って化学者の群れに紛れ込んでしまったお坊さん曰く、
> 「皆さんがカッパーナイトレイトについて、口角泡を飛ばす
> 勢いで話していらっしゃるのを聞いて、私はてっきりポリスの
> 夜勤手当のお話かと思ってしまいました。」(訳注：カップは
> 警官を意味する俗語、ナイトレイトは夜勤手当ともとれ、
> 一方、カッパーナイトレイトとは硝酸銅のこと）
Brian Chandler
Fred Uleman
> In this joke "copper" is "policeman", not "cop".
--
Fred Uleman
Minoru Mochizuki
But isn't your 口角泡を飛ばす a very free translation of "mention"?
So you noticed.
As a matter of fact, I would translate very freely once
I am out of the legal, patent, and academic translations.
Being free-styled seemed to be required in other areas of
translation.
I only object to people use their imagination to add or
Subtract what is not included in the original text in the
Field of pure industrial (and academic) translations.
Minoru Mochizuki
Brian Chandler
> Re Brian's:
> > In this joke "copper" is "policeman", not "cop".
>
> What is the meaning difference between a policeman and a cop?
In this joke the word "copper" means a policeman. It is not just the
abbreviation "cop" that means a policeman. I don't know if "copper" is
current in AmE, perhaps not -- it sounds British to me (but I'm no
expert on that). I'm not sure it's correct to call "cop" an
abbreviation, either: it seems to come from the verb "to cop", meaning
"catch" or similar, and "copper" means "one who cops".
Brian Chandler
OT: Watched a Dan Brown movie last night "Angels and Devils" OSLT;
hmm. There are some hilarious notes on just how awful a writer he is
by Geoff Pullum on the language blog:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000844.html
(Which [LB] by the way is a fantastic source of time-consumption
methodologies.)
Doreen Simmons
that
one of my most important qualifications was the knowledge of a whole
raft of
bad words in many different languages --naturally so that I could
avoid using them,,,,
On 2009/11/07, at 13:56, Marc Adler wrote:
>
> 2009/11/6 Alan Siegrist <AlanFS...@comcast.net>:
>
>> Somehow I doubt our straitlaced clergyman would be 'hearing' ポリ公
>> (which
>> is not a nice thing to call a policeman). More likely the ordinary and
>> nonjudgmental ポリス or even more likely the shortened ポリ.
>
> Just because they don't use the words doesn't mean they don't know
> them.
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Michael Smith
Michael
Adam
through, though. Now I get it, too.
Adam
Mika Jarmusz
ただし、それはあくまでも「原文に近づける」ためのものです。
化学者同士ならそんな話に熱が入りもするのかもしれませんが、この原文のおもしろさは
１．単なる素人の nitrate → night rateの聞き間違い
２．copper→警察の勘違い
３．上の１と２から、話題を全く取り違えていた
というだけであって「熱っぽく語っている」状況に起因するものでありません。日本語のような形で文字に明示されることのない英語のトーンを訳文に描写できればいいのであって、それ以上に余分なものを追加する必要もないものと思われます。意訳とは意を汲む訳であって、十人十色に勝手にできるというわけではありませんので。
頓知のきいた斉藤さんのアイデアには脱帽です。overtime pay for policemenというテーマが、さらに前後の話の成り行きに影響しているのであれば、この箇所の訳も変えなければなりませんが、この抜粋からはそこまで判断することはできませんので、単なる一口ジョークと仮定して、ちょっと拝借させていただきます。
A clergyman in the company of some chemists said, ‘When you mentioned copper nitrates, I thought you were discussing overtime pay for policemen.”
「ポリの塩化のなんて言うから、お巡りさんがカラオケで演歌でも歌うのかと思ってた。」だとさ。
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
Yoshiro Shibasaki
Yoshi
-- 芝崎芳朗 Yoshiro Shibasaki, PhD Tel.: [+44]131-229-0878 Edinburgh, Scotland (UK) Fax: [+44]131-228-5117 Mobile: 07808 925 795 Scientific Translator/Interpreter/Consultant English/German/Danish/Japanese (biomedical sciences)
Marc Adler
> I thought "copper = policeman" came from the copper buttons of the UK
> policemen's uniform. Therefore, in the UK "copper" is not a derogative word
> for a policeman, but "cop" is.
In the UK "cop" is derogatory? In the US it isn't really very derogatory.
Marc Adler
Alan Siegrist
Yoshiro Shibasaki writes:
> and "copper" means "one who
cops".
I thought "copper = policeman" came from the copper buttons of the UK policemen's
uniform. Therefore, in the UK
"copper" is not a derogative word for a policeman, but
"cop" is.
I had heard this theory before about “copper” coming from the copper buttons. But this is the first time I had heard the theory that “copper” comes from the verb “to cop” in the meaning “to catch.”
I don’t know exactly which derivation theory is correct, but my impression is that in modern US usage, “cop” as a word for a policeman is informal but not particularly derogatory. In contrast, when I have heard “copper” used in UK movies or such, it seemed to be used in a much more derogatory and spiteful manner. I have a picture in my mind of a suspect on the run yelling “You’ll never catch me, copper!” or shooting the policeman saying “Take that, copper!”
There are plenty of much more derogatory words for “policeman” in US slang.
Nora Stevens Heath
> In contrast, when I have heard "copper" used in UK movies or such, it
> seemed to be used in a much more derogatory and spiteful manner. I have
> a picture in my mind of a suspect on the run yelling "You'll never
> catch me, copper!" or shooting the policeman saying "Take that, copper!"
And I've heard "cop" used in UK movies/TV shows (comedies, usually),
spoken by the captured or arrested bad guy: "It's a fair cop," meaning
"I guess I had that coming." I had taken the "cop" here to be the verb.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/It's+a+fair+cop
Nora
--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/
Nora Stevens Heath
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm
Though I've heard both theories before, I do not believe the copper on
policemen's buttons had anything to do with the term.
Anthony Bryant
like to offer something of a distraction.
On of my favorite moments from the Tonight Show, with Johnny Carson
(guest: Jack Webb, of the series Dragnet).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWBJiW0Xpo
Enjoy. :)
Tony
Alan Siegrist
Great clip! But an important bit to note for this discussion is that Jack
Webb, in character as Sgt. Joe Friday, says "My name's Friday. I'm a cop."
If "cop" were really so derogatory, he would certainly not use it to refer
to himself.
Would a UK policeman call himself a "copper"?
Jerome Conway
> If "cop" were really so derogatory, he would certainly not use it to refer
> to himself.
I entirely agree. I know several cops who refer to themselves as such.
Jerome Conway
kanji saito
アメリカのテレビ番組で警官の日常を追った「Cops」というドキュメンタリがあ
ります。
http://www.cops.com/
斉藤 完治
Michele Miller
> refer
> to himself.
>
> Would a UK policeman call himself a "copper"?
While not particularly complimentary, 'cop' isn't derogatory in my book,
just slang for policeman. As kids we used to play a game called
Cops'n'Robbers, but I'd only use it these days in expressions like 'not
much cop', to cop it, cop-out. 'The cops' might still be used more broadly
here in Australia as one of a range of terms to refer to the police, but
not 'coppers'--more my grandfather's generation who inherited such terms
from their Br ancestors, along with rhyming slang: 'bottles and stoppers'
for 'coppers'
Michele Miller,
Sydney, Australia
Minoru Mochizuki
For those of you who are wondering about the etymology of the word “cop” (I suppose that there is only a few who doubt if it means a policeman, if any), here’s what Webster’s Third New International Dictionary has to say:
Cop1 n 1 Chiefly dial Eng: TOP, HEAD, CREST (skip the rest)
Cop2 (skipped by me)
Cop3 vt slang Brit: to strike (a person) esp. on the head
Cop4 vb 1 slang : CATCH, CAPTURE
Cop5 n slang Brit: CAPTURE, ARREST
Cop6 n : POLICEMAN
It seems to me the flow is top/head à to strike on the head à capture à policeman.
The similarity between cop and copper is, of course, in the sound.
Minoru Mochizuki@I still say trying to translate a joke is only a personal game as much as translating Finnegan’s Wake to Japanese
From:
hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Siegrist
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:45 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: The meaning of "clergyman"
Yoshiro Shibasaki writes:
Richard Thieme
Reminds me of this sketch (notice the additional meaning of cop as in "to
steal")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpVjW30I-YU
Also remember a production of My Fair Lady in Japanese, where they
translated "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain" as something like "スペインの雨は殆ど草原に降ります
Thereby missing the whole point.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
----- Original Message -----
From: "Minoru Mochizuki" <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp>
To: <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: The meaning of "clergyman"
Cop1 n 1 Chiefly dial Eng: TOP, HEAD, CREST (skip the rest)
Cop2 (skipped by me)
Cop3 vt slang Brit: to strike (a person) esp. on the head
Cop4 vb 1 slang : CATCH, CAPTURE
Cop5 n slang Brit: CAPTURE, ARREST
Cop6 n : POLICEMAN
The similarity between cop and copper is, of course, in the sound.
Minoru Mochizuki@I still say trying to translate a joke is only a personal
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Siegrist
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:45 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: The meaning of "clergyman"
Yoshiro Shibasaki writes:
> and "copper" means "one who cops".
I thought "copper = policeman" came from the copper buttons of the UK
policemen's uniform. Therefore, in the UK "copper" is not a derogative word
for a policeman, but "cop" is.
buttons. But this is the first time I had heard the theory that 田opper・
comes from the verb 鍍o cop・in the meaning 鍍o catch.・
I don稚 know exactly which derivation theory is correct, but my impression
is that in modern US usage, 田op・as a word for a policeman is informal but
not particularly derogatory. In contrast, when I have heard 田opper・used in
spiteful manner. I have a picture in my mind of a suspect on the run yelling
that, copper!・
There are plenty of much more derogatory words for 菟oliceman・in US slang.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Karen Sandness
of My Fair Lady replaced "the rain in Spain" with "The sun rises in
the east and sets in the west." They didn't give the actual Japanese
version, but since the stereotypical shitamachi accent confuses the
syllables "hi" and "shi," this was a good functional equivalent.
Localizingly yours,
Karen Sandness
Richard Thieme
Actually I think many moons ago we had a discussion of radio reading tricks
that they used to use to train NHK announcers so that they would have a
suitably coherent pronunciation throughout the country.