Question for you chemistry gurus: No. 2 sodium silicate?

[Warren Smith]

OK you chemistry gurus (who help me out so often – Matthew, Herman, Kirill, John, Dr. Niranjan, Christiane, Tim, etc., to whom I am increasingly indebted), how would you render “2号ケイ酸ナトリウム”? “No. 2 sodium silicate” seems to show up predominately in translations from Japanese and Chinese (no doubt by translators who are as clueless on the subject as I am). What do NESCs (native English-speaking chemists) call this? (In case the answer does not make it obvious, I am interested in 1号ケイ酸ナトリウム and 3号ケイ酸ナトリウム as well…)

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Warren Smith

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Dr. Warren Smith

JETS: Japanese-English Technology Services

27 Sandybrook Dr.

Durham, NH 03824 USA

Warren...@Comcast.net

603-674-2227

 

[Kirill Sereda]

The designations “No. 1”, ”No. 2”, and “No. 3” are used in JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) K1408, where the numbers 1, 2, and 3 correspond to the value of “n” in the general water glass formula:

 

Na2O · nSiO2

 

In other words, JIS No. 1 sodium silicate has SiO2 (n=1), JIS No. 2 sodium silicate has 2SiO2 (n=2), and JIS No. 3 sodium silicate has 3SiO2 (n=3).

 

Kirill Sereda

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[Warren Smith]

Thanks, Kirill. Being from JIS would explain why these are found in translation from Japanese!

 

Warren

 

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From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirill Sereda
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:48 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Question for you chemistry gurus: No. 2 sodium silicate?

 

The designations “No. 1”, ”No. 2”, and “No. 3” are used in JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) K1408, where the numbers 1, 2, and 3 correspond to the value of “n” in the general water glass formula:

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[Kirill Sereda]

Sorry, Warren, my previous explanation was not correct, since according to this:

 

http://www.sankocc.com/mizugarasu.htm

 

the English names for the corresponding sodium silicates are:

 

JIS No. 1 sodium silicate = disodium disilicate (formula: Na2O . 2SiO2 aq, molar ratio: 2)

JIS No. 2 sodium silicate = tetrasodium pentasilicate (2Na2O . 5SiO2 aq, molar ratio: 2.5)

JIS No. 3 sodium silicate = disodium trisilicate (Na2O . 3SiO2 aq, molar ratio: 3)

 

Kirill Sereda

[Warren Smith]

Thank you again, Kirill.

 

When I look at this, I am not 100% sure that the  珪酸ソーダ１号 in the reference you linked is the same as 1号ケイ酸ナトリウム.   Table 1 lists types of “けい酸ナトリウム,” but how those map onto the types of “珪酸ソーダ” in the Table 2 (from which you pulled the English terminology)  is not entirely clear to me, and indeed  I am completely baffled by the apparent contradistinction between “ケイ酸ナトリウム” and “珪酸ソーダ. This makes no sense to the layman such as me, but it tends to make me lean towards your *first* answer….  (I wish I had a way to stay more in my fields of semiconductors and electronics, but you hate to tell your million-word clients to find someone else when you don’t have to….)

 

As always, I am grateful for your help, Kirill.

 

Warren

[Herman]

On 12/02/17 20:16, Kirill Sereda wrote:
> Sorry, Warren, my previous explanation was not correct, since according
> to this:
>
>
>
> http://www.sankocc.com/mizugarasu.htm
>
>
>
> the English names for the corresponding sodium silicates are:
>
>
>
> JIS No. 1 sodium silicate = disodium disilicate (formula: Na2O . 2SiO2
> aq, molar ratio: 2)
>
> JIS No. 2 sodium silicate = tetrasodium pentasilicate (2Na2O . 5SiO2 aq,
> molar ratio: 2.5)
>
> JIS No. 3 sodium silicate = disodium trisilicate (Na2O . 3SiO2 aq, molar
> ratio: 3)
>

Based on the above page, "JIS No. 1/2/3 sodium silicate" would be a
better option, because it is closer to the source text and because the
molar ratio in the standard (the first table) is specified as a range,
so the above renderings may not be entirely accurate.

Herman Kahn

[Kirill Sereda]

Warren wrote:

 

>><snip> the apparent contradistinction between “ケイ酸ナトリウム” and “珪酸ソーダ.

 

http://www.fuji-chemical.com/product_keisan_soda.html

 

“珪酸ソーダ” is the old industrial jargon for “ケイ酸ナトリウム”.  Soda = sodium = natoriumu.  Also, since “珪” (silicon) is not a joyo kanji, “珪酸” is written in katakana as “ケイ酸”.

 

Kirill

 

From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Warren Smith
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:07 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Question for you chemistry gurus: No. 2 sodium silicate?

 

Thank you again, Kirill.

[Warren Smith]

Thanks, Herman. Just to confirm, this would be "1 sodium silicate" (as
opposed to "No. 1 sodium silicate")?

When will you folks ever post a question that *I* can answer to pay you back
a little bit for all the help you have been over the years?

Warren
---------

[Warren Smith]

 

 

Thanks, Kirill. What confuses me is that both conventions are used in the same document. When I see what appears to be the same thing stated two different ways, I always wonder why….

 

W

-------

 

“珪酸ソーダ” is the old industrial jargon for “ケイ酸ナトリウム”.  Soda = sodium = natoriumu.  Also, since “珪” (silicon) is not a joyo kanji, “珪酸” is written in katakana as “ケイ酸”.

 

Kirill

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[Kirill Sereda]

Yes, it’s annoying when they use several synonyms simultaneously. “Sodium silicate” has a synonym, “silicate of soda”, which is the same as “珪酸ソーダ”:

http://www.chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20SILICATE.htm

Kirill

 

From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Warren Smith
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:42 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Question for you chemistry gurus: No. 2 sodium silicate?

 

 

 

Thanks, Kirill. What confuses me is that both conventions are used in the same document. When I see what appears to be the same thing stated two different ways, I always wonder why….

[Herman]

On 12/02/17 21:40, Warren Smith wrote:
> Thanks, Herman. Just to confirm, this would be "1 sodium silicate" (as
> opposed to "No. 1 sodium silicate")?
>

I would use "JIS No. 1 sodium silicate" or "JIS grade 1 sodium silicate".

Herman Kahn

[John Stroman]

Warren,

In older academic and patent documents it is common to encounter different sections written by different authors who do not maintain consistent terminology between sections.

John Stroman​

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[Matthew Schlecht]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Warren Smith <warren...@comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

Thanks, Kirill. What confuses me is that both conventions are used in the same document. When I see what appears to be the same thing stated two different ways, I always wonder why….

 

W

-------

 

“珪酸ソーダ” is the old industrial jargon for “ケイ酸ナトリウム”.  Soda = sodium = natoriumu.  Also, since “珪” (silicon) is not a joyo kanji, “珪酸” is written in katakana as “ケイ酸”.

     Looks like this one is all tidied up with a bow on top by now.

     I will simply suggest that there are several reasons why a variety of duplicative usages might be found in a patent specification.  For example, the specification could have been redacted together from source materials supplied by more than one author, or boilerplate could have been lifted from another patent or reference document.  Even if harmonization would make sense, the original usages are often maintained because revising them might raise questions down the road about fidelity to those sources.

     Still, it is quite annoying to find things like this, and makes a savvy translator wonder whether the author/redactor really has much of an idea of what they are writing about, and what the text conveys to one skilled in the art.

     Nevertheless, my understanding of patent translation modus operandi is that separate source terms must be rendered by separate target terms, even when they mean essentially the same thing.  The translation must be a true and accurate rendition of the source, and collapsing or conflating terms is a no-no, at least to many patent attorneys who wish to avoid having the translation contested later on.  If this one-to-one term relationship is violated, a translator's note should be appended to explain the compelling reasons why. The assumption (whether valid or not) has the author(s) being aware of the synonymous usage and employing it for a valid reason.  For example, using "C1-alkyl group" in one sentence and "methyl group" in the next.  Although fundamentally identical, these expressions have contextual nuances that would be lost if collapsed to a single term.

Matthew Schlecht, PhD
Word Alchemy Translation
Newark, DE, USA
wordalchemytranslation.com

[Hào Anh Lê 黎英豪]

According to Japanese texts I found, 2号ケイ酸ナトリウム has a SiO2 ratio from 34-36%. This corresponds to "Grade 159 Water Glass", found here:

http://www.ariankimia.com/eimg/COA%20for%20Ddetergent%20-%20SODIUM%20SILICATES.pdf

Hào Anh Lê

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[Warren Smith]

Wow – this adds a whole new level of complication! (Makes me glad that I am able to avoid chemistry – at least for the most part…)

 

Thanks for the additional information.

 

Warren

 

 

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