Japanese birth order
A. Cheng
I am translating a manga and at the center of this volume is a
"battle" among siblings to be the heir to a company. It's been
established that there is only one male child, 16 years old, and he is
labeled as 長男。 Then, on an opposite page it has pictures of two girls,
one who looks much older than 16 and one who is probably a bit
younger. These are labeled: 次女：明湖、四女：七海. Their ages are not included,
but the boy refers to Meiko as "Meiko-neesan" so I can assume she is
older.
So here is my question. How can I label these in English so as not to
confuse an American reader? Eldest son might mislead them to believe
that he is the overall oldest, which isn't the case. Does 四女 refer to
her being the fourth daughter or the fourth born, period? I don't have
much experience with working with birth orders yet, so any help would
be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andria Cheng
David Farnsworth
And 長男 is always Eldest Son, regardless of the boy's birth order.
For example: I once knew a family in Nagoya with eight girls, followed by a
boy. He was the
Manako Ihaya
This means that there is a first-born daughter （長女）elsewhere, as well as a third-born daughter（三女）. There may be 次男 and 三男 and so on, but we don't know.
(In an official family register, usually there is only one of each, but just to confuse you, I can attest to the fact that my family register has two 長女s among my children just because my third-born daughter was the first-born daughter between my second husband and me. So confusing and strange....)
Manako
--
Manako Ihaya (aka Monica)
ATA-Certified Japanese-English Translator
Lake Forest, California
Marceline Therrien
女, and 四女 mean.
In English you might be able to get away with something like:
Number-one son
Number-two daughter
Number-four daughter
I think that I've heard Japanese-Americans use expressions like this in
explaining sibling relationships.
Marceline Therrien
J2E Business Translations
Oakland, California, USA
A. Cheng
Manako's answer especially gave me exactly what I was looking for.
Much appreciated.
三女のAndria Cheng
Franzi
wrote:
>
> Number-one son
> Number-two daughter
> Number-four daughter
>
> I think that I've heard Japanese-Americans use expressions like this in
> explaining sibling relationships.
to his children in this manner). I don't know if that connotation
would bother anyone, but I think it's worth mentioning.
--Franzi
Stephen Suloway
I couldn't come up with Charlie Chan's name, but I thought "Chinese
stereotype."
On Jan 29, 2008, at 13:37, Franzi wrote:
> "Number one son" instantly makes me think of Charlie Chan (who refers
> to his children in this manner). I don't know if that connotation
> would bother anyone, but I think it's worth mentioning.
+++++
Stephen Suloway
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Alan Siegrist
> I think you've already been given some good explanations about what長男,
> 次女, and 四女 mean.
>
> In English you might be able to get away with something like:
>
> Number-one son
> Number-two daughter
> Number-four daughter
Oh no, no, no! That sounds very much like the way of speaking derided as the
Oriental stereotype as typified by Charlie Chan.
I would definitely favor something like "first-born son" and such.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
David Farnsworth
to me like attempts from a generation or two ago by Western writers to sound
"Asian".
But if your audience (the manga reader) expects such a tone, then go right
ahead.
David Farnsworth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Franzi" <fdic...@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Honyaku E<>J translation list" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Wayne Root
On Jan 29, 2008, at 1:09 PM, David Farnsworth wrote:
>
> That is why I was worried about stilted English. This sort of thing
> sounds
> to me like attempts from a generation or two ago by Western writers
> to sound
> "Asian".
>
> But if your audience (the manga reader) expects such a tone, then
> go right
> ahead.
>
> David Farnsworth
>
Exactly. I was thinking of Charlie Chan and the "No. 1 son."
Marceline Therrien
terminology without any hint of irony.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WUr8SPflgJMC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=%22japanes
e+american%22+%22number+one+son%22&source=web&ots=KQTQqqe0Dg&sig=TbyFeYM1wRc
mvtTVaBnKXatZf_4
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/min0int-1 (Norm Mineta)
http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/pubfiles/adt-MU20061012.65617/05Chapter4.pd
f
http://books.google.com/books?id=OXmori_p_gwC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=%22japanes
e+american%22+%22number+one+son%22+%22charlie+chan%22&source=web&ots=v_O2avw
_mU&sig=Gl5DQA1kZ-qb22MDBa2UOF8zHEA
And in fact, if you Google "number two son" minus "Charlie Chan" there are
kinds of hits that have nothing to do with either Chinese or Japanese
people, so there are clearly some authors who are quite comfortable using
this method of describing sibling order.
Given that the document being translated is a MANGA, the use of "number-one
son" and "number-two daughter" seems ENTIRELY in keeping with the TONE of
the source document. On the other hand, "fourth-born daughter" seems
unnecessarily stiff.
Marceline
Alan Siegrist
> On the other hand, "fourth-born daughter" seems unnecessarily stiff.
You may be quite right about that. I wonder why we need the -born bit in
there at all. I think "my fourth daughter" or "our fourth girl" gets the
idea across.
Alan Siegrist
> http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/min0int-1 (Norm Mineta)
If you look carefully, he writes:
| My dad was the "number two" son, and everything goes to the "number one"
| son in Japan,
Norman Mineta is a very well-educated and erudite man. I think he put the
scare quotes on "number two" and "number one" precisely because he was
jocularly alluding to the stereotypical "Charlie Chan" way of talking. He
clearly has a sense of humor.
Certainly, if this is a _manga_, the translator can do lots of things to
make it sound funny if a comical effect is desired, and perhaps this may be
one of them as long as the translator is aware of what they are doing.
But not all _manga_ are comics and humor may not necessarily be intended in
this specific case.
Wayne Root
Stephen Suloway
one son" is normal usage.
It's an idiom that carries baggage.
Yet as she and others have pointed out, that might be fine for manga.
On Jan 29, 2008, at 14:32, Marceline Therrien wrote:
> Whether you like it or not, at least some Japanese-Americans use this
> terminology without any hint of irony.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=WUr8SPflgJMC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=%
> 22japanes
> e+american%22+%22number+one+son%
> 22&source=web&ots=KQTQqqe0Dg&sig=TbyFeYM1wRc
> mvtTVaBnKXatZf_4
Searching this site for "number" turns up nothing (perhaps because of
the frames)
> http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/min0int-1 (Norm Mineta)
"Number one" and "number two" placed in quotes, indicating there's
something unusual about the expressions.
(Alan Siegrist posted the same while I was still doing my homework...)
> http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/pubfiles/adt-
> MU20061012.65617/05Chapter4.pd
> f
"Number one son" again in quotes in the text, though not in quotes
inside an extended quotation.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=OXmori_p_gwC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=%
> 22japanes
> e+american%22+%22number+one+son%22+%22charlie+chan%
> 22&source=web&ots=v_O2avw
> _mU&sig=Gl5DQA1kZ-qb22MDBa2UOF8zHEA
Title of the book quoted here is: "All I asking for is my body"
I would expect non-standard idioms to show up in it.
Darren Cook
>
> You may be quite right about that. I wonder why we need the -born bit in
> there at all. I think "my fourth daughter" or "our fourth girl" gets the
> idea across.
Yes, this sounds most natural to me.
And Bob Dylan supports this usage too, in Highway 61, :-).
...
Now the 5th daughter on the 12th night
Told the first father that things weren't right
my complexion, she says, is much too white
He said come here and step into the light
He said hmm you're right let me tell the 2nd mother this has been done
But the 2nd mother was with the 7th son
And they were both out on highway 61
...
Darren
Steve Venti
> It's an idiom that carries baggage.
I beg to disagree. "Idioms" do not carry baggage; people carry
baggage. If you have attached your baggage to this idiom and don't
care to use it, fine. But please don't put the cart before the horse.
--
Steve Venti
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And draw us near, and bind us tight,
All your children here, in their rags of light.
In our rags of light, all dressed to kill,
And end this night, if it be your will.
--Leonard Cohen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Adler
> I beg to disagree. "Idioms" do not carry baggage; people carry
> baggage. If you have attached your baggage to this idiom and don't
> care to use it, fine. But please don't put the cart before the horse.
I think it was pretty clear what Stephen meant - certain phrases or
words carry baggage in certain contexts (cultures, etc.). I don't see
what's controversial about that. In any case, arguing whether
linguistic "baggage" is attached to people or to language is a
philosophical question (and one whose answer is not as clear-cut as
you seem to think).
In this specific case, there are pretty strong cultural connotations
associated with the whole Charlie Chan character (especially his
perpetually broken English) that most Americans (at least) have some
sense of. I'm surprised you don't.
As can be seen from the reaction on the list, "number-one son" is a
phrase that calls up that baggage, and I'd avoid it.
--
Marc Adler
Austin, TX
Gauçac eztira multçutu, eta berretu behar mengoaric, eta premiaric gabe.
Steve Venti
> I think it was pretty clear what Stephen meant
Yes, what he meant was perfectly clear to me, too. What's more, I
don't disagree with his conclusion. But that doesn't change the fact
that he put the cart before the horse.
There are a lot of expressions that "sound offensive" some contexts
but not in others. That is why attributing the baggage to the word is
inaccurate.
Sam Spiteri
up baggage I would like to say that baggage is not all bad.
Watching the Charlie Chan movies (while growing-up)always gave me pleasure
and seeing Chinese people on the TV screen (although Charlie was played by a
Caucasian) was one of the first things that piqued my interest in the Far
East (yes, I know it's a pejorative nowadays). Charlie was smarter than the
police and criminals and had good family values. Growing-up and living in a
small Michigan city (all white) the only way to 'experience' other cultures
was through movies/TV.
I would say that Charlie Chan, Godzilla (especially the vs. Mothra one with
The Peanuts) and Kung-fu movies and The Sand Pebble were all definite
influences on me when I went to university and decided to major in Far
Eastern Studies in 1967.
-Sam Spiteri
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Marc Adler
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:08 PM
> To: hon...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Japanese birth order
>
>
Vince Coleman
I agree with you one hundred percent that those kinds of translations
are fun and interesting, and may inspire people to change their
lives. I personally used to love the weird translations in Jackie
Chan movies. But, on the other hand, we are not in the business of
entertaining people with translations that do not express exactly what
the client wants to express to the best of our abilities.
Whether or not the reader is "to blame" for bringing the emotional
baggage (or emotive word associations) with them when they read, if
you have knowledge that a certain phrase may trigger associations
which are not the express wish of the client in a large group of
people, you are pretty much obligated to search for a term that does
not have that risk.
A while back I asked here what people think of the word "lifestyle,"
because it has always been a concern of mine that translating 生活 as
lifestyle might trigger the association of "alternative lifestyle" in
some people when it is not appropriate or related to the content of
the original document. Apparently, a lot of people here do not have
that problem with the word "lifestyle," but you can never be too
careful... with all the PC going on today, there seem to be a growing
amount of people with extremely sensitive (and sometimes volatile)
facilities of word-association...
I realize this comment pushes the envelope for OT-ism... sorry....