a typical Jewish trick
Hikasa, Chiaki
Juror A: If I were you I'd listen to the comrade from the Transport
Authority.
Juror B: You know your reasoning is somehow...Jweish.
Juror A: What, I should reason like the late Yasse Arafat?
Juror B: All right. No, well... Wait a minute. Ok. So the working guy
said something stupid. Why are you supporting him?
Juror A: You know, what he said wasn't stupid.
Juror B: See that's typical Jewish trick. If a non-Jew says something
stupid, it's OK, but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid.
Juror B の最後のセリフのオチがわかりません。
typical Jewish trick がどういうことなのか、お教えいただければ幸いです。
Hikasa, Chiaki
Okinawa, Japan
Brian Watson
Brian Watson
http://picasaweb.google.com/brian.watson, http://internationalia.blogspot.com
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), brian-momotaro (skype)
Jim Lockhart
ユダヤ常套の手
のような表現にあろうか。
少々軽蔑がでる表現がいいと思います。「部外者なら難癖をつけるのに、ユダヤ
仲間となると庇う常套の(汚い)手」というニュアンスなんで・・・
Trick = (人を騙す)手
HTH (Shinyaさん、美香さんの見方が出るまでのご参考になれば・・・）,
--Jim
> 2008/11/4 Hikasa, Chiaki <ant...@okinawa.email.ne.jp>
> >
> > Juror B の最後のセリフのオチがわかりません。
> > typical Jewish trick がどういうことなのか、お教えいただければ幸いです。
> >
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo, JPN
Hikasa, Chiaki
でも、わたしが悩んでいる理由は、the comrade from the Transport
Authority（=the working guy） がユダヤ人ではないと思われるからです。
この人がユダヤ人かどうかをまず調べてみる必要がありそうですね。
http://www.12-movie.com/cast/05.html
（↑）この人なのですが、ユダヤ人だという手がかりがみつかりません。
ついでに言うと、
juror A → http://www.12-movie.com/cast/04.html
juror B → http://www.12-movie.com/cast/03.html
ということになっています。
Hikasa, Chiaki
Okinawa
William Taylor
better than 直訳
＞typical Jewish trick.
ずる賢い手口？？
Regards,
William Taylor
Jim Lockhart
I would assume that the two either are or are (at least) suspected of
being Jews. I'm not sure of the broader context (and am not going to
research it, since I'm not _that_ interested in the matter), but I'm
willing to bet the prejudice against Jews has some part in it, and
therefore anything that references Jews (or attitudes towards them) is
relevant to the dialog and thus should appear in the translation.
But that part is for the translator to decide.
And, btw, 意訳 is always better than 直訳. 直訳, except in certain
circumstances, is valid only when it coincides with 意訳, because any 訳
that conveys something not in the meaning (意) of the original is a 誤訳.
HTH,
--Jim Lockhart @ その意（こころ）は?
On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:42:15 -0800 (PST)
William Taylor wrote:
>
> If the guy doing Jewish tricks is in fact not Jewish, 意訳 could be
> better than 直訳
>
> ＞typical Jewish trick.
> ずる賢い手口？？
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo, JPN
Mika Jarmusz
ＡさんはＢさんの三歩先を見ている、
そんなやりとりですね？
リンクを見ると、とりあえずＡさんはユダヤ人ですから、
Ｂさんの発言はTransport Authorityもユダヤ人であることも仄めかしていることになりますね。
でもそこまでダブルチェックの確認の必要もなさそうですが。
ユダヤ人というのは
「自分たちは人とは違う『特別な・選ばれた』民族だ」
と先祖代々教え込まれてきて、それを信じこんている、
という既定概念がまずあって、
(私の素人の印象ですので、違うかも知れませんが）
typical Jewish trick は
「やっぱり！自分たちだけ『特別だ』と言ってるだけじゃないか
（ばかもいいかげんにしろ）」
ということではないでしょうか。
ユダヤ人に対する偏見は、日本語で読む人には
「通念」としては浸透していないと思いますので、
訳すとすれば：
「単なる内輪の肩持ちだろ。」
ぐらいになるかも。どうですか？
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
Mika Jarmusz
あと、
Ｂさんの発言はTransport Authorityもユダヤ人であること「を」
仄めかしていることになりますね。
でした。
日本語をご存じの方は打ち間違いであることが
すぐおわかりになると思いますが、
日本語を勉強中の方のために訂正しておきます。おじゃましました。
kanji saito
ること、そしてBがユダヤ人に対して偏見とまでは言わないまでも、あまりよく
ない感情を持っていることに重要な意味があるのだとすれば、「ユダヤ人」と
いう単語を訳にも入れておいた方が良いのではないかと思います。
「ほら、それがユダヤ人お得意のあれだっつうのよ。」
「ほら、出た、ユダヤ人お決まりの論法」
とか。
二銭
斉藤 完治
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Mika Jarmusz
Ａさんが「ユダヤ人であること」をチクリと刺してますね。
Juror B: See that's typical Jewish trick. If a non-Jew says something
stupid, it's OK, but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid.
ユダヤ人の言うことなら何でも耳をかすんだろう。
・・・とか。
Marc Adler
> 「ほら、出た、ユダヤ人お決まりの論法」
I think this is the best suggestion.
The Russian Wikipedia page for the film
(http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_(%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC)) has
this:
3-й присяжный, таксист-русофил
4-й присяжный, старый еврей
Third juror, taxi-driver, Russophile (in this context, a Russian with
strong patriotic/nationalist feelings)
Fourth juror, old Jew
According to Chiaki's other email, Juror A is the fourth juror, and
Juror B is the third juror.
That being the case, we have a "Russophile" telling a Jew that he's
employing "Jewish tricks." Considering this is Mikhalkov, and it's a
Mikhalkov movie about Russians judging a Chechens (no less), he's
probably intentionally probing the historically bimyou-na relationship
between the Jews and Russia. So, "typical Jewish trick" is (I think)
intended to represent/encapsulate the attitude of the stereotypical
Russian anti-semite towards Jews. Whether or not the guy from the
Transport Authority is Jewish or not doesn't really matter, since the
"trick" the taxi-driver is talking about has to do with the other
juror's reasoning (as he explicitly says). He's not implying that the
juror is helping out another Jew (i.e., 肩持ち), just that his conclusion
is predetermined by the fact that the other guy is Jewish.
Which is why I think Kanji's suggested translation above is good.
Incidentally, I'm guessing that the line that comes after (about
Yasser Arafat) is supposed to be funny. It doesn't really come through
in this English translation, which doesn't seem to be very good
anyway. Take the line "If a non-Jew says something stupid, it's OK,
but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid": what is the first part
supposed to mean? That it's okay for non-Jews to say stupid things? If
the original is "togda ladno/khorosho" for "it's OK," then the
translation should be "then that's one thing" or something like that.
So, translations of translations are one thing, but translations of
bad translations can be ... difficult.
If I were you, I would recommend that the client get a
Russian>Japanese translator to work directly with the original text.
Wait a second. Stop the presses. Take a gander at the trailer.
http://www.12-movie.com/trailer/index.html
It's got 倍人員⑥ as an 温厚な性格のユダヤ人, who is listed in the Wiki article as a
"businessman," but after a bit of detective work, a google image
search for Valentin Gaft (the actor playing the Jew) confirms that
he's both the 倍人員⑥ and the fourth juror from the film's Wiki page, so
obviously the numbering got lost in the translation.
Either way, in the trailer, the Russian corresponding to the ユダヤ人は黙ってろ
is roughly something like "...with your Jewish tricks, [sth] is mixed
up..." ("...своими еврейскими штучками запутан..." (can't really make
out the last part, tho)). FWIW.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Alan Siegrist
> Incidentally, I'm guessing that the line that comes after (about
> Yasser Arafat) is supposed to be funny. It doesn't really come through
> in this English translation
I thought that it was pretty funny and that the humor came through just
fine. The double-take by the other juror upon hearing the line was just
perfect. I don't know about the rest of the translation from Russian,
though.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
Anthony Bryant
On Nov 5, 2008, at 5:00 PM, Marc Adler wrote:
> Wait a second. Stop the presses. Take a gander at the trailer.
>
> http://www.12-movie.com/trailer/index.html
Wait, so is this a Russian remake (and reframing) of "12 Angry Men"?
Tony
Marc Adler
> Wait, so is this a Russian remake (and reframing) of "12 Angry Men"?
Da.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Anthony Bryant
On Nov 5, 2008, at 5:47 PM, Marc Adler wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Bryant
> <anthony...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Wait, so is this a Russian remake (and reframing) of "12 Angry Men"?
>
> Da.
Interesting. II'm curious as to how the whole Chechen thing fits in.
I'd like to see the film -- but I'd bet it never makes it to the States.
Heck, I'm still waiting for Aleksandr: Nevskaya Bitva to show up, and
I don't think that'll happen, either.
Tony
Mika Jarmusz
He's not implying that the juror is helping out another Jew (i.e., 肩持ち), just that his conclusion is predetermined by the fact that the other guy is Jewish.
Note also that I stopped short of spelling out the gory details of 論法 ("If a non-Jew says something stupid, it's OK, but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid.")
I only saw the trailer, but if the focus of the scene is Juror B's deeply rooted contempt for the Jews and his repeated attempt at dismissing what "the working guy" said as being stupid, then what does it really take for the translator to convey all that, to the Japanese audience, in the given time frame? Will the audience still be able to watch the actors play? (I did like Saito-san's ユダヤ人お決まりの論法, by the way.)
If the Japanese viewer wants to pause the DVD and slowly read the translation to learn exactly what was said in the scene, then I guess they do need a Russian translator.
Juror A: If I were you I'd listen to the comrade from the Transport
Authority.
Juror B: You know your reasoning is somehow...Jweish.
Juror A: What, I should reason like the late Yasse Arafat?
Juror B: All right. No, well... Wait a minute. Ok. So the working guy
said something stupid. Why are you supporting him?
Juror A: You know, what he said wasn't stupid.
stupid, it's OK, but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid.
Hikasa, Chiaki
結局、陪審員５（the guy from the Transport Authority）はユダヤ人というこ
とですね。映画の中で「ユダヤ人」はキーワードのひとつで、陪審員４（ユダヤ
人）と陪審員８（半分ユダヤ人）は自分でそうだと言ってるのですが、陪審員５
についてはわからずに悩んでました。でもおかげさまで、彼はユダヤ人らしから
ぬユダヤ人（特別だという意識がなくて思慮深さや賢明さに欠ける）だというこ
とがはっきりわかりました。
みなさまの訳の提案や考え方のご教示は大変参考になったのはもちろんのこと、
Marc Adler さんの以下のコメントも、わたしが疑問に思っていたところを解き
明かしてくれました。
>Take the line "If a non-Jew says something stupid, it's OK,
> but ... if it's a Jew, it's not stupid": what is the first part
> supposed to mean? That it's okay for non-Jews to say stupid things? If
> the original is "togda ladno/khorosho" for "it's OK," then the
> translation should be "then that's one thing" or something like that.
>
> So, translations of translations are one thing, but translations of
> bad translations can be ... difficult.
> If I were you, I would recommend that the client get a
> Russian>Japanese translator to work directly with the original text.
はい、ごもっともで、実際に制作会社にそう言いました。
もしロシア語→日本語の翻訳者で、日本語吹き替え版の台本づくりの仕事をされ
ている方がいれば、わたしのほうから制作会社を紹介させていただきますよ。
> It's got 倍人員⑥ as an 温厚な性格のユダヤ人, who is listed in the Wiki article as a
> "businessman," but after a bit of detective work, a google image
> search for Valentin Gaft (the actor playing the Jew) confirms that
> he's both the 倍人員⑥ and the fourth juror from the film's Wiki page, so
> obviously the numbering got lost in the translation.
日本語のサイトでも混乱が見られます。公開前に急いで作ったからでしょうか？
Hikasa, Chiaki
Okinawa, Japan
Marc Adler
> Although I might be taking the above too literally, 肩持ち doesn't have to mean
> to "help out."
Duly noted.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Marc Adler
> Interesting. II'm curious as to how the whole Chechen thing fits in.
> I'd like to see the film -- but I'd bet it never makes it to the States.
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/12/70086955?trkid=191776
Unknown release date, but I doubt it won't be released in the US.
Mikhalkov won an Oscar for another movie called Burnt by the Sun.
It's a great movie.
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com
Marc Adler
--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com