BrE-AmE translation [OT]
Mark Spahn
suggests that there does not seem to be a quick, unambiguous way
in American English to say 引越し (changing one's residence)
in a way that does not mean simply 動く (motion).
But in British English there is the phrase "to move house".
Its unambiguity is so useful that maybe this British expression
will find its way into American English,
like "the runup to ..." and "go missing" did.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
Alan Siegrist
> http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic32040.html ,
> suggests that there does not seem to be a quick, unambiguous way
> in American English to say 引越し (changing one's residence)
> in a way that does not mean simply 動く (motion).
How is "They moved last week." ambiguous? The key is the object "they." If
"they" refers to a family unit that lives together in a house or apartment,
the sentence unambiguously means a permanent change of residence. We would
use a different verb such as "travel" or "visit" to mean a short-term change
of location.
But sure, if "they" refers to sunspots or a flock of seagulls or herd of
cattle or elephant seals, the same sentence means simple motion.
> But in British English there is the phrase "to move house".
Is there some different aspect of usage in British English that requires the
word "house" here to make the sentence unambiguous?
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Fred Uleman
As Alan said, context is important. Symphonies and watches have movements. So do bowels. But we don't assume they are the same. Families and armies move, and so does the earth around the sun, but we don't assume they are the same. In fact, people move in the movement sense (in one of the movement senses) so often that we don't remark upon it -- which means that saying "I moved last month" probably means changing residences. Unless the "I" has been completely paralyzed for a long time.
As a famous person once said, IADOTC.
--
Fred Uleman
Mark Spahn
> Mark Spahn writes:
>
>> http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic32040.html ,
>> suggests that there does not seem to be a quick, unambiguous way
>> in American English to say 引越し (changing one's residence)
>> in a way that does not mean simply 動く (motion).
>
> How is "They moved last week." ambiguous?
in a new location, or that they changed jobs within a company.
Almost every time I encounter 引越し, I am perplexed
by how to translate it unambiguously. Here's an example,
taken from an actual business e-mail:
小生ですが、年末に帰国しまして年初に引越しを行う予定です。
I am tempted to translate this as
"I will be going [moving?] back to Japan at the end of
the year and plan to move early next year."
Here, "move" might be taken as meaning "move from
one job within the company to another job within the company".
(Imagine that the preceding paragraph discussed job transfers.)
Here, changing "move" to "move house" disambiguates
at the cost of but one syllable.
By the way, what is the phrase 小生ですが、doing at
the start of that sentence? Why not just 小生は or 私は?
Is this phrase a way to make a transition from talking
about company business to talking about personal matters?
Might 小生ですが、be translated as "Personally," or
"As for my personal situation,"?
What are the nuances of 私ですが、 versus 私は ?
Alan Siegrist
> > How is "They moved last week." ambiguous?
>
> Short answer: It could mean they set up their business
> in a new location, or that they changed jobs within a company.
The only ambiguity is in the pronoun "they." If you know the referent of the
pronoun (a family versus a company), there is no ambiguity.
If I say "I moved" it unambiguously means I changed residences unless there
happen to be some very specific circumstances that might change the meaning,
such as if I was playing a game with the object of staying still, where "I
moved" might be an admission of losing the game by moving.
> Almost every time I encounter 引越し, I am perplexed
> by how to translate it unambiguously. Here's an example,
> taken from an actual business e-mail:
>
> 小生ですが、年末に帰国しまして年初に引越しを行う予定です。
>
> I am tempted to translate this as
> "I will be going [moving?] back to Japan at the end of
> the year and plan to move early next year."
> Here, "move" might be taken as meaning "move from
> one job within the company to another job within the company".
But we don't usually say "move" when referring to changing jobs within a
company. We usually say "transfer" for this, as in "I was transferred to
[accounting, sales, Akron, Tokyo, etc.].
Your use of the words "move" and "moving" in the above is clear and
unambiguous.
In certain contexts, it is possible that "move" might be used to refer to a
job transfer, especially in the passive form. I can envision someone saying
"I was moved out of sales and into accounting."
Perhaps one could say "I moved up into senior management" but there is no
way that this could be mistaken for 引越し.
> (Imagine that the preceding paragraph discussed job transfers.)
> Here, changing "move" to "move house" disambiguates
> at the cost of but one syllable.
But we do not say "move house" in American English; there is no need for the
word "house." There is no ambiguity that you need to avoid.
Roland Hechtenberg
> But we do not say "move house" in American English; there is no need for the
> word "house." There is no ambiguity that you need to avoid.
Unless you use the expression "we moved the house" when the move
includes the house, as can be seen from time to time with the
entire house being included in the move.
Have fun (and freedom of movement),
Roland
Roland Hechtenberg
Shuichi Yamakawa
>By the way, what is the phrase 小生ですが、doing at
>the start of that sentence? Why not just 小生は or 私は?
>Is this phrase a way to make a transition from talking
>about company business to talking about personal matters?
>Might 小生ですが、be translated as "Personally," or
>"As for my personal situation,"?
>What are the nuances of 私ですが、 versus 私は ?
Interesting question! I am a poor student of Japanese
grammar, so I cannot give a theoretical explanation.
Let me try to answer the question anyway. I think there
are two parts to it: 1. ですが vs は and 2. 小生 vs 私.
先ず最初の「ですが」ですが、マークさんのおっしゃる通り、
a way to make a transition の役割があると思います。「小生で
すが」と始まった方が文章が自然に流れる感じがします。「小生は」
と言うと、やや唐突な感じがすると思います。
As for 小生 vs 私, I somehow feel that most native Japanese
speakers tend to avoid using 私 as much as possible. Perhap
you can just ommit it. You can also use some other expressions.
When writing, you can humbly call yourself 小生(shousei).
More formally, a businessman announcing his transfer from one
branch office or department to another may start a new paragraph
with 私事(watakushigoto)で恐縮ですが to talk about his personal
matters.
In extremely formal cases, you may find 私儀(watakushigi) and
私こと(watakushikoto) printed in a small font at the bottom of
a sentence (in vertical writing). Most Japanese, including
myself, just select a template text to fill out and let the
printer mass-produce the letter for distribution to their
friends and acquaintances. I did Googling and found that 儀
and こと here mean "as for" rather than "matter."
I hope other Honyakkers who have lived in Japan long enough,
as well as native Japanese speakers, will contribute to this
discussion.
Shu (Shuichi Yamakawa)
Ko Iwata
＞I hope other Honyakkers who have lived in Japan long enough, as well as
native Japanese speakers, will contribute to this discussion.
最近の若者は「小生」より「自分」を使います。
岩田