Regarding the Fukushima nuclear disaster
Alan Siegrist
Thank you for the message and your interest.
I had not seen that very interesting presentation by Dr. Ohmae. Thank
you very much for sending it along. I was very impressed by his
refreshingly frank discussion of the issues.
I also found that he had a very similar idea to mine about building
backup electrical power for nuclear power stations. His idea was to
build a small conventional fossil-fueled power plant at each NPS,
which might also address the very same issue. My fear is that such a
power plant could also be taken out by the same disaster that takes
out the primary backup diesel generators. This is the reason for my
proposal to locate portable spare backup diesel generators off-site
and bring them on-site when needed.
Anyway, I have set up a new mailing list named Honyaku-Genpatsu so we
can continue these discussions.
Best,
Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. M. S. Niranjan [mailto:drmsni...@yahoo.co.jp]
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 11:24 AM
> To: AlanFS...@Comcast.net
> Subject: Regarding the Fukushima nuclear disaster
>
> Dear Mr. Siegrist,
>
> I have been following your postings on this topic in the Honyaku mailing list.
>
> I am an engineer and would like to know how the discussions are going
> on. (I am not willing to comment because I do not have sufficient
> information about these reactors.) (However, I am a supporter of
> nuclear energy and feel that deriding nuclear power generation itself
> is not correct. There may be still hope for nuclear fusion reactors
> that produce helium from hydrogen.)
>
> Please add me to your mailing list about discussions on this topic, or
> send me a link where I can check what is going on.
>
> By the way, have you seen the following You Tube video of Dr. Kenichi
> Ohmae talking about this issue?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqwgVy9iN0
>
> Thanks and best regards.
>
> Dr. M. S. Niranjan
Alan Siegrist
concerns, so I sent the following email to him care of BBT University
where he gave the speech in the video. I hope he gets the mail and
replies. He has the political and business connections needed to
actually get something like this done. I will share any reply with the
list.
大前先生、
突然のメールで、申し訳ございません。原子力関係を専門とする翻訳者、アラン・シーグリスト(Alan Siegrist)と申します。柏崎刈羽発電所
のABWR建設の際、GEと日立殿と東芝殿のJVのGE側で多くの文書を英訳しました。
さて、私は本日、先生の下記公演を拝見しました。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqwgVy9iN0
先生の演説全体の正直直面の態度は感激しました。ありがとうございます。
実は、演説の中の一部「電源喪失対策として、原子力発電所の中で火力発電所を作りましょう」とほとんど同じアイディアを私も考えました。
コンセプトが若干違いますので、先生と相談したく、連絡いたしています。
火力発電所を非常電源として原子力発電所の敷地内に設置するのは、もちろんよいですが、私は心配しているのは、同じ敷地内に設置するのなら、福島第一の
場合のように非常用DGが全機損失すると、同じ災害のせいで、火力発電所も被害を受ける可能性は高いではないでしょうか。
そこで、私のコンセプトは、洪水・津波などの水害の危険を避けるため、予備非常用DGモジュールを近くの高所に保護建屋の中にトレーラーの上に備え、必
要なとき必要なところに牽引することです。設置場所が違うので、同じ災害で同時機能損失の可能性が低いのです。また、移動式電源モジュールですので、必
要なところ、計装でも非常炉心冷却でも使えるようになります。また、別の発電所まで搬送するも考えられます。もちろん、共通な接続方式は前もって、考慮
しないといけないと思います。
このプランの費用は相当高くなく、早く実施できるものと思います。この予備非常用DGが実現すれば、福島第一のような事故の再発を未然に防ぐことができ
ると思います。
いかがでしょうか。
また、先生の演説の中で、海外のエキスパートと打ち合わせをするという話がありましたので、もうし私はその場で、役に立つことがあれば、是非連絡してく
ださい。
よろしくお願いします。
アラン・シーグリスト
Rene
general spin in the German media and among German politicians about
this.
Everybody treats this as a nuclear accident, and uses it as a
plattform to bash nuclear power.
But this was not nuclear accident. The plant met and exceeded all its
specifications.
It was the total infrastructure breakdown OUTSIDE the plant which
brought it down. Apparently, the "worst case" planning for disasters
had assumed that, no matter what happens, the external infrastructure
will remain intact.
That was not the case here. Whatever plans are made in future, they
must assume that outside power lines etc. are all down. That must be
the starting point for planning. It if had been, we we would not have
this mess.
Regards
Rene
Alan Siegrist
> Everybody treats this as a nuclear accident, and uses it as a plattform to
bash
> nuclear power.
Yes, I don't agree with this line of thinking. We don't call for automobiles
to be abolished every time someone dies in a traffic accident. And we don't
say that people should not live in houses when someone dies in a house from
slipping in the bathtub or a house fire or even if the house is destroyed by
a typhoon, earthquake or tsunami.
So there is similarly no reason to call for nuclear power to be abolished
just because this terrible disaster happened and moreover, no one has as yet
even died from radiation from this incident.
In all of these situations, we can and should still ask for improved safety.
> But this was not nuclear accident. The plant met and exceeded all its
> specifications.
>
> It was the total infrastructure breakdown OUTSIDE the plant which brought
it
> down. Apparently, the "worst case" planning for disasters had assumed
that,
> no matter what happens, the external infrastructure will remain intact.
>
> That was not the case here. Whatever plans are made in future, they must
> assume that outside power lines etc. are all down. That must be the
starting
> point for planning. It if had been, we we would not have this mess.
Yes, I think this is exactly the issue and how we need to go from now on.
Regards,
Alan
martha mcclintock
elevator engineers and such were quoted post Kobe quake as saying, "we had forgotten the power would be cut during an earthquake".....
this disaster isn't the quake/tsunami/nuclear, it is catastrophic breakdown of japanese infrastructure and its ripple effects...
and the main thing i learned from kobe was that, as a general rule, japan does not teach/practice independent problem solving skills or lateral thinking
so where possible, those of us outside the impacted areas can help our people/clients/organizations/etc with independent problem solving skill/lateral thinking support....
and encourage teaching/improving such skills in the future....
martha mcclintock
melbourne australia
email: mjm...@gmail.com, mjm...@mac.com
skype: mjmink
jamesal...@gmail.com
> and the main thing i learned from kobe was that, as a general rule,
> japan does not teach/practice independent problem solving skills or
> lateral thinking
Bingo. But say it too loudly, and you'll be accused of cultural
imperialism, foisting "Western" values on the Japanese, or just plain
racism.
> so where possible, those of us outside the impacted areas can help
> our people/clients/organizations/etc with independent problem solving
> skill/lateral thinking support....
Wanna bet? Do it too forcefully, and you'll be accused of cultural
imperialism, foisting "Western" values on the Japanese, or just plain
racism. Or they might treat you the way they treat independent thinkers
among their own: They tell you to shut up and know your place.
> and encourage teaching/improving such skills in the future....
Fat chance of this working. It's antithema to those with any authority,
and I'm not even talking about the power elites.
----------------------------------------------
Jim Lockhart
40-6 Myoken
Kamikoiji, Miyano-shita
Yamaguchi, Yamaguchi 753-0011 JPN
http://picasaweb.google.co.jp/JamesALockhart
Tel. 050-5539-8028
Skype: jamesalockhart
----------------------------------------------
martha mcclintock
On 04/04/2011, at 12:48 PM, jamesal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2011 09:08:24 +1000
> martha mcclintock <mjm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> and the main thing i learned from kobe was that, as a general rule,
>> japan does not teach/practice independent problem solving skills or
>> lateral thinking
>
> Bingo. But say it too loudly, and you'll be accused of cultural
> imperialism, foisting "Western" values on the Japanese, or just plain
> racism.
well yes, we went through all that in post-Kobe.... but encouraging those who are not completely "ishi-atama" to use those undervalued parts of themselves is a great contribution i believe...
>
>
>> so where possible, those of us outside the impacted areas can help
>> our people/clients/organizations/etc with independent problem solving
>> skill/lateral thinking support....
>
> Wanna bet? Do it too forcefully, and you'll be accused of cultural
> imperialism, foisting "Western" values on the Japanese, or just plain
> racism. Or they might treat you the way they treat independent thinkers
> among their own: They tell you to shut up and know your place.
in my close to 40 years involvement in Japan i have come to believe that for every 10 people in an office, 3 are doing most of the work and carrying the others.
Similarly, i have always been the swimming upstream rather than running with lemmings sort. In a nation of 95percent lemmings, i have consciously and carefully sought out the 5 percent "rebels" who are similar swimming upstream sorts, and bonded with them.
In looking back through the 120 emails i sent out the night of March 11th to clients/friends/colleagues/research partners in the greater kanto-tohoku region, i realized that the great majority of them are swimming upstream sorts....
without realizing it, self-selection or whatever, my clientele/close colleagues/research partners/friends in japan of all nationalities are those who have swum upstream and become independent full individuals, no matter how scarred by the battle, in japan....
>
>
>> and encourage teaching/improving such skills in the future....
>
> Fat chance of this working. It's antithema to those with any authority,
> and I'm not even talking about the power elites.
last i checked, there were many ways to teach, and many of the people on that list of 120 emails are in considerable positions of authority within government and private enterprise within japan....
I am fascinated by the bitterness in your response and your blanket dismissal of the presence of very strong individuals in Japan, or of the possibility that individualism can be part of the Japanese experience. Over the decades my indepth relationship with Japan has always been fraught with the whole spectrum of the love/hate relationship, times when i was more Japanese than the Japanese, times when i was more blustering blond american than i could even believe.
What in your history/relationship with japan has fostered this bitterness?
musingly
martha j. mcclintock
melbourne australia
email: mjm...@mac.com or mjm...@gmail.com
skype: mjmink.
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Jim Lockhart
> 40-6 Myoken
> Kamikoiji, Miyano-shita
> Yamaguchi, Yamaguchi 753-0011 JPN
>
> http://picasaweb.google.co.jp/JamesALockhart
>
> Tel. 050-5539-8028
> Skype: jamesalockhart
> ----------------------------------------------
>
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>
jamesal...@gmail.com
> I am fascinated by the bitterness in your response and your blanket
> dismissal of the presence of very strong individuals in Japan, or of
> the possibility that individualism can be part of the Japanese
> experience. Over the decades my indepth relationship with Japan has
> always been fraught with the whole spectrum of the love/hate
> relationship, times when i was more Japanese than the Japanese, times
> when i was more blustering blond american than i could even believe.
>
> What in your history/relationship with japan has fostered this bitterness?
What bitterness? I don't know whether you're American or Australian in
outlook, but I tend to fall somewhere between US-Northeast and northern
European, I think; so what you interpret as my bitterness is not really
that so much as sarcasm to vent over the realities of life in Japan. I
do not dismiss the very strong individuals in Japan, because like you, I
identify strongly with them; and as a matter of fact, I think they're
the people who, as anywhere else, make things go. Your description of
your own experience (quoted above) mirrors mine fairly closely.
You also wrote:
> in my close to 40 years involvement in Japan i have come to believe
> that for every 10 people in an office, 3 are doing most of the work
> and carrying the others.
Ditto. And those seven people being carried by the other three, are the
very people I was thinking of when I wrote, "It's antithema to those
with any authority, and *I'm not even talking about the power elites*."
Among the many Japanese I know who are independent thinkers and
on-the-spot innovators, many are people with less formal education than
the stereotypical. I don't think that the educational system "does not
teach independent thinking (etc.)"; my impression is that it works
actively to suppress the basic human instinct to think for oneself and
come up with solutions to immediate problems.
---------------------------------------------------
Jim Lockhart
Japan Translation Services
766-10 Teradamachi
Hachioji, Tokyo 193-0943
Email: jaloc...@jpntranslations.com
Universal address: j...@jpntranslations.com
Website: http://www.jpntranslations.com/
tel. 050-5539-8028 or +81-42-668-8020, fax: +81-42-668-8022
Skype: jamesalockhart
----------------------------------------------------
martha mcclintock
the following just emerged as i avoid my tasks du jour... just a separate musing, please ignore if so desired.
I am a blond Californian who spent most of my adult life in Japan before emigrating to Australia 7 years ago. I am now a dual national Aussie-American. I describe myself as being "half japanese on the inside" because of my intense acculturation in Japanese culture since I was about 17, for all i am a tall WASP, i don't think like one all the time...
As a tall blond female who has spent huge amounts of time in being extremely "dog walking on her hind legs" unusual in rural/small town japan (90% of my phd research was in northern kanto/tohoku) and a year of training in the tea ceremony inner sanctums of Kyoto, i know just what you are describing. I have been "hatsu-gaijin" for dozens of rural sorts....
And what got me through those times, was two-fold, 1) brilliant mentoring by other "dogs walking on their hindleg" foreigners and japanese rebels, and 2) realizing that by being different, by offering an example of a successful respected person who "is the nail sticking up", I was doing/continue to do my part for international understanding.....the smiles on the secretaries faces, the women in the kitchen of private homes who would come out to watch "the honored guest with the important men" drinking in how i interacted with those men, etc... is just one of the signs that my "teaching" is getting through....
To this day, my meishi have rounded corners..... In traditional meishi etiquette this is the sign that the person is a female. When i was doing my phd diss research followup in the early 90s, and meeting a newly located private art collector for the first time in small town northern nowhere kanto plain, I had to spend two hours convincing this bigot that yes 1) i was female, even though i was taller than he is and yes he could take his eyes of my his-eye-level-boobs, 2) yes, i was the world expert on the subject of my study, and 3) yes, i was the McClintock sensei that his respected colleague had sent to meet him.....
he couldn't believe that i was 1) speaking polite japanese, and was female....
By the end of the afternoon of hell, he had pulled all the important documents out of the kura for me to see, photograph and study, and he had agreed to hand me on to other little known sources.... much to his surprise...
And when we bowed to say goodbye, he was still shaking his head that such a weird beast existed, and his wife/daughter-in-law, my fellow japanese art specialists who were with us, all learned something too...
teaching isn't just in schools... formal education the world over and through all generations is flawed/incomplete/agenda-laden.... I believe teaching is everyday experiences.... everyday....with everyone we encounter....
and the question we all ask about japan, why has such a "repressed/conformist" society produced such amazing art/culture/literature et al over the millenia? i believe it is because those who are truly gifted and have gut-level need for self-expression no matter the costs, will always prevail.... the best art doesn't always come from the "free-est" societies....
NOW back to whatever it was i was supposed to be doing this afternoon!
martha in melbourne
jamesal...@gmail.com
> ok, it was sarcasm not bitterness. still completely not the response i expected to my email:
Sorry to disappoint...
> the following just emerged as i avoid my tasks du jour... just a separate musing, please ignore if so desired.
No, your musings were perfect. Actually, I suspect we think and act is
similar ways, minus the at-his-eye-level assets.
I've been hatu-gaijin and only gaijin for lots of people too, and I
learned a long time ago that once the newness wears off, they treat you
just like anyone else in their circle of friend or relatives--the
(in)famous Japanese xenophobia that's supposed to be so pervasive, seems
to fade to such extent that you have to wonder whether it was ever
really there. And I totally agree with you that the best way to "teach,"
as you put it, is to acclimate yourself to the differences and be
yourself--rather than resist, preach and rail, as so many of our fellow
gaijin are wont to do.
I have been asked by several people whether I wasn't throwing away my
pride or giving up my identity in doing these. I've never felt that way,
and regarding the latter, have always felt that acclimating myself was
part of my identity, not a negation of it. But then again, I always
wonder whether identity, particularly that aspect of it that ties you to
a particular nationality, culture, or ethnic group, is all that
important.
In my case, having lived for nearly 35 years outside my native culture,
I actually find many aspects of it difficult to return to.
> and the question we all ask about japan, why has such a "repressed/conformist"
> society produced such amazing art/culture/literature et al over the
> millenia? i believe it is because those who are truly gifted and have
> gut-level need for self-expression no matter the costs, will always
> prevail.... the best art doesn't always come from the "free-est"
> societies....
I find that in Japan, the nails the continue to stand out despite
enormous hammering, tend to command huge respect. Free and easy is not
always what it's cracked up to be.
Best regards,
--Jim Lockhart
Yamaguchi/Hachioji, Tokyo
martha mcclintock
On 04/04/2011, at 2:43 PM, jamesal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:26:10 +1000
> martha mcclintock <mjm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ok, it was sarcasm not bitterness. still completely not the response i expected to my email:
>
> Sorry to disappoint...
not disappointed, just surprised...
>
>
>> the following just emerged as i avoid my tasks du jour... just a separate musing, please ignore if so desired.
>
> No, your musings were perfect. Actually, I suspect we think and act is
> similar ways, minus the at-his-eye-level assets.
well yes, being tall enough and blond and female in rural japan has its pluses and minuses...
>
> I've been hatu-gaijin and only gaijin for lots of people too, and I
> learned a long time ago that once the newness wears off, they treat you
> just like anyone else in their circle of friend or relatives--the
> (in)famous Japanese xenophobia that's supposed to be so pervasive, seems
> to fade to such extent that you have to wonder whether it was ever
> really there. And I totally agree with you that the best way to "teach,"
> as you put it, is to acclimate yourself to the differences and be
> yourself--rather than resist, preach and rail, as so many of our fellow
> gaijin are wont to do.
i have been known to do all that too... part of the culture shock/love-hate relationship cycle i have found...
>
> I have been asked by several people whether I wasn't throwing away my
> pride or giving up my identity in doing these. I've never felt that way,
> and regarding the latter, have always felt that acclimating myself was
> part of my identity, not a negation of it. But then again, I always
> wonder whether identity, particularly that aspect of it that ties you to
> a particular nationality, culture, or ethnic group, is all that
> important.
>
> In my case, having lived for nearly 35 years outside my native culture,
> I actually find many aspects of it difficult to return to.
one of my most important teachers is a woman named Tae Okada, who was a linguistics professor at Doshisha who taught special seminars at AKP (associated kyoto program at Doshisha for US undergraduates). In an introductory lecture to all of us "junior year abroad" fresh off the plane sorts, she explained that the world is not made up of americans, japanese, british, chinese, zimbaweans, etc.... it is made up of people who are either "national" or "international" in outlook.... and that if we remembered that about all the people we would meet in our year in japan, it would help us understand each individual better for who they were, and relate better to all of them... and it all ties into that "insider/outsider" thing, and for whatever reason, i have always been one to attempt to establish close connection with individual people, whatever the context and whatever the usual protocol... gets me in trouble in some settings, but it seems to be the way i am wired, so i just have learned to go with it, and be thrilled with the benefits in spite of the costs...
that and my own trick of treating every new/unsettling/uncomfortable experience as an anthropologist-experiment.... a bit of staying engaged with the moment while also trying to stand back and have some "bigger picture" understanding/analysis of what is happening... works a treat when i am back in america, look and sound like an american, and yet feel like i have landed on mars and feel completely out of place...
>
>
>> and the question we all ask about japan, why has such a "repressed/conformist"
>> society produced such amazing art/culture/literature et al over the
>> millenia? i believe it is because those who are truly gifted and have
>> gut-level need for self-expression no matter the costs, will always
>> prevail.... the best art doesn't always come from the "free-est"
>> societies....
>
> I find that in Japan, the nails the continue to stand out despite
> enormous hammering, tend to command huge respect. Free and easy is not
> always what it's cracked up to be.
yep.... it is always fascinating to consider the "world great" individuals in any culture and time and see how their "extraordinary gift" is often something developed/honed/recognized/feted in spite of their being the "weirdos" in their world....
thanks for a thoughtful exchange!
grins
martha
>
> Best regards,
>
> --Jim Lockhart
> Yamaguchi/Hachioji, Tokyo
>
Rene
well yes, being tall enough and blond and female in rural japan has its pluses and minuses...
Being tall and blond and male in rural Japan too I would assume... more plusses though overall probably.
Back to the reactor, should not an olympic-sized swimming pool be part of the specifications for any nuke power plant? Located at a higher elevation than the reactor and cooling basins, and connected to these by pipes with manually operated valves.
Seems to me that would buy enough time whatever happens.
By the way, I am reading just now that plants in the US relay on external power supply for cooling stored used fuel, just like the Japanese ones. So, exactly the same thing could happen there.
Regards
Rene
Alan Siegrist
Rene writes:
Back to the reactor, should not an olympic-sized swimming pool be part of the specifications for any nuke power plant? Located at a higher elevation than the reactor and cooling basins, and connected to these by pipes with manually operated valves.
Yes, some reactor designs do in fact have such a pool above the reactor for emergency cooling. However, perhaps more important than the cooling water is the reactor instrumentation that indicates vital information such as water levels and which valves are open or closed. Not enough water and the reactor core could become exposed. Too much water and you could end up with radioactive water sloshing around in the basement and leaking out into the environment, as we see now. Neither situation is good. Without reactor instrumentation, the operators are blind.
This is why the loss of power to both the coolant pumps and reactor instrumentation was such a double whammy to Fukushima Daiichi.
By the way, I am reading just now that plants in the US relay on external power supply for cooling stored used fuel, just like the Japanese ones. So, exactly the same thing could happen there.
Yes, I am very much aware of that. Perhaps the same sort of improvements should be made at US plants also.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
Mark Spahn
"Back to the reactor, should not an olympic-sized swimming pool be part of the specifications for any nuke power plant? Located at a higher elevation than the reactor and cooling basins, and connected to these by pipes with manually operated valves."
A hilltop swimming pool could have dual use for swimming recreation in normal times, and for cooling-water storage in the event of an emergency. But an earthquake might destroy the piping leading from the pool(s) to the reactor, and crack the pool itself, causing the water in it to leak uselessly into the ground. Could the pool and its tubing be made earthquakeproof by making it out of a flexible plastic, rather than out of rigid concrete and steel pipes? Also, the water in a swimming pool is chlorinated, which might make it unsuitable for cooling (would cause corrosion?). -- Mark Spahn
martha mcclintock
"Back to the reactor, should not an olympic-sized swimming pool be part of the specifications for any nuke power plant? Located at a higher elevation than the reactor and cooling basins, and connected to these by pipes with manually operated valves."
A hilltop swimming pool could have dual use for swimming recreation in normal times, and for cooling-water storage in the event of an emergency. But an earthquake might destroy the piping leading from the pool(s) to the reactor, and crack the pool itself, causing the water in it to leak uselessly into the ground. Could the pool and its tubing be made earthquakeproof by making it out of a flexible plastic, rather than out of rigid concrete and steel pipes? Also, the water in a swimming pool is chlorinated, which might make it unsuitable for cooling (would cause corrosion?). -- Mark Spahn
Rene
"Back to the reactor, should not an olympic-sized swimming pool be part of the specifications for any nuke power plant? Located at a higher elevation than the reactor and cooling basins, and connected to these by pipes with manually operated valves."
A hilltop swimming pool could have dual use for swimming recreation in normal times, and for cooling-water storage in the event of an emergency. But an earthquake might destroy the piping leading from the pool(s) to the reactor, and crack the pool itself, causing the water in it to leak uselessly into the ground. Could the pool and its tubing be made earthquakeproof by making it out of a flexible plastic, rather than out of rigid concrete and steel pipes? Also, the water in a swimming pool is chlorinated, which might make it unsuitable for cooling (would cause corrosion?). -- Mark Spahn
Seeing that they have been using SEAWATER as a last resort, I think a bit of chlorine would be a lesser worry...
Regards
Rene
Rene
um, my brother's house was near the epicenter of the Loma Prieta quake in 1989, and basically he had a mini-tsunami in his back yard........ all the water in the in-ground, normal backyard sized pool swung to one side of the pool, back to the other side of the pool and then back to the first side of the pool and out on to the lawn, surrounding garden.... none was left in the pool 5 minutes after the earthquake.....
So. Out goes the swimming-pool, double use idea. But the same concept with a large water storage, subdivided in cells to avoid tsunamis, and with non-cracking coating, is still valid.
No?
Seems to me that if they had had a large body of cooling water available ready to run down by gravity, none of this would have happened.
Regards
Rene
Minoru Mochizuki
Are you talking a large body of cooling water enough to cool the hot things in the power station for months to come? What do you want to do with water over flowing from the vessels (which happens within a day or two)? The water will be contaminated when it cools the hot things. The water that cools the hot things needs to be cycled while its heat needs to be passed on to the secondary flow of water via the heat exchanger. All of those activities needs pumps and pumps need motors and motors need electricity. So, a large body of cooling water serves no purpose.
Minoru
Rene
Are you talking a large body of cooling water enough to cool the hot things in the power station for months to come? What do you want to do with water over flowing from the vessels (which happens within a day or two)? The water will be contaminated when it cools the hot things. The water that cools the hot things needs to be cycled while its heat needs to be passed on to the secondary flow of water via the heat exchanger. All of those activities needs pumps and pumps need motors and motors need electricity.
Yes.
So, a large body of cooling water serves no purpose.
Wrong. It does. Cooling is immediately more important than radiation (and it prevents overheating = more radiation).
And it is important to have water available immediately, without having to rely on pumps and electricity.
Remember the whole drama which we just watched, with hydrogen explosions and impossible helicopter drops and fire-engines being trucked and salty seawater being pumped?
All that could have been avoided if a large water supply had been available right off the bat.
Not "useless", but essential.
Regards
Rene
The whole slow-motion drama which we have just witnessed could
Minoru Mochizuki
The fuel rods continue to generate heat even though the chain reaction ceases for a long time (many months) so that you need a large dam, not a pool, to continue to keep cooling it. You have to know if a dam can be built in the area where Fukushima Daiichi Genpatsu is built.
Your idea is a layman’s useless idea.
Minoru
From: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:honyaku-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rene
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:39 PM
To: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Regarding the Fukushima nuclear disaster
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:28 PM, Minoru Mochizuki <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:
--
Mark Spahn
Minoru Mochizuki
They were able to pump sea water from the Pacific Ocean which is larger than any pool or dam that are man-made. All they needed are a few helicopters and some fire engines. Their effort served the purpose to cool down tanks which held spent fuel rods temporarily. At this moment, thanks to the heroic rescue teams, the external electric power lines are feeding electric power to the power station (ironic, isn’t it?), and some pumps are operating so that cooling water circulation was restored. Yes, they were frantic to cool the reactor vessels and spent fuel rod tanks using all kinds of methods including choppers and fire engines, but it was not that bad at all, because they worked. It was much cheaper to build an emergency tank or dam for feeding water by gravity. Also, even if they had a tank, the piping could have been damaged by the earthquake and tsunami, and the gate valve could have been incapacitated by the loss of electric power. As you know, all electricity was lost by the tsunami, as the emergency diesel powered emergency generators (total 13 of them) were down. Professionals designed whatever they designed considering all contingencies imaginable, and built the best way.
If you wish to read, I recommend you to read at least the following two: (a) Wikipedia article about the power station on who designed and built and (b) MIT’s Nuclear Engineering Department’s professional analysis on what happened:
(a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant
(b) http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/modified-version-of-original-post/
The answers to your questions are all yes. They had to have (assume) some standards to design. As you can see in the above MIT’s report, the earthquake was more than they assumed/anticipated. It’s like a question: do you want to drive a tank on a high way because you are afraid of a car accident.
Minoru
Rene
The fuel rods continue to generate heat even though the chain reaction ceases for a long time (many months) so that you need a large dam, not a pool, to continue to keep cooling it. You have to know if a dam can be built in the area where Fukushima Daiichi Genpatsu is built.
It depends on the time frame. I am not talking about a permanent solution; only about buying time until better fixes can created.
Your idea is a layman’s useless idea.
We are all laymen here. So what is your laymen`s idea?
Regards
Rene
Minoru Mochizuki
I have some engineering background as I majored in mechanical engineering and worked as an engineer in the related industry, but I admit I have very limited knowledge. However, I can read and understand the MIT’s report I mentioned in the other post and other reports professional discussions I could lay my hands on.
As for my opinions, you can refer to my response to Mark.
For one thing, I have an opinion that you certainly have the right to continue to discuss about the happening at Fukushima Genpatsu, but that is something I would call barber’s politics, a kind of talks a barber would to entertain his clients, in which he might say how stupid his country’s president or prime minister is. Nobody believes that the barber is smarter than the president or prime minister. The barber knows his limitation and his objective. What do you think is your objective?
Minoru
From: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:honyaku-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rene
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:17 AM
To: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Regarding the Fukushima nuclear disaster
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Minoru Mochizuki <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:
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Rene
The barber knows his limitation and his objective. What do you think is your objective?
I want to talk about a topic, not about other participants on a mailing list.
Now, I asked what your laymens solution was, after you bashed others. What is it?
Regards
Rene
Minoru Mochizuki
Solution to which problem?
Minoru
From: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:honyaku-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rene
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:43 AM
To: honyaku-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Regarding the Fukushima nuclear disaster
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Minoru Mochizuki <min...@rhythm.ocn.ne.jp> wrote: