The saint and the sinner

[Prabesh Lohani]

Dear devotees,

Could anyone add their thoughts to the following quote by Oscar Wilde?

"The only difference between a saint and a sinner is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."

[Girish]

I would think it's another way of expressing the fact that "Man is the maker of his own destiny".

No matter what you have done in the past, you can rise from that and create a new future for yourself.

In this context, the following class notes from Swamiji might be relevant:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_8/Notes_Of_Class_Talks_And_Lectures/Man_The_Maker_Of_His_Destiny

-Girish

[Prabesh Lohani]

Thank you Girish ji

[NAREN RANA]

"The only difference between a saint and a sinner is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." Oscar Wilde

The difference is the quality of 'guna''  present in the mind of both persons.

The sinner has excess 'tamo guna''  and the saint has excess '' sattva' guna".

The purpose of selfless service, Holy Company, constant japam and recollection of God, Sadhana and meditation, reading Holy Scriptures etc is to convert the tamo guna to rajo guna to sattva guna  and then to transcend them.


Jai Sri Ramakrishna

.

--
Ramakrishna pada sharana sada,
[(You who are) Ever surrendered at the feet of Ramakrishna]
Pada saroja tava pranami sada
[My Salutations to Your lotus feet].

[NAREN RANA]

.

"The only difference between a saint and a sinner is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." Oscar Wilde

The difference is the quality of 'guna''  present in the mind of both persons.

The sinner has excess 'tamo guna''  and the saint has excess '' sattva' guna".

We see in Ramakrishna's life, when Haladhari, the cousin priest of Ramakrishna, told him that Kali was a tamasic deity, unworthy of worship, then our Master, like a child, rushed to Mother and asked Her in tears, "Mother, Mother, Haladhari is a scholar, says you are made of Tamogune! Are you really so?"  The Mother did console Her child.  In great joy Ramakrishna rushed out of the temple and jumping on the back of the cousin, reproached him,"you say, Mother is Tamasic.  Is that so? Mother is all--She has become all the three gunas and again She is Pure Sattavagune." SWAMI NISHTHATMANANDA 

  
The purpose of selfless service, Holy Company, constant japam and recollection of God, Sadhana and meditation, reading Holy Scriptures etc is to convert the tamo guna to rajo guna to sattva guna  and then to transcend them.

Jai Sri Ramakrishna

.

--
Ramakrishna pada sharana sada,
[(You who are) Ever surrendered at the feet of Ramakrishna]
Pada saroja tava pranami sada
[My Salutations to Your lotus feet].

[Tirtha Mitra]

Yesterday I was reading 14th chapter of Gita from Swami Ranganathanandaji's book. He narrated one practical example of the Gunas. He visited a Police academy to deliver lecture to the police officers. He advised them to be polite in their dealings even with the suspects and undertrials. He says even to such people one should behave respectfully. When putting someone into the police van instead of pushing and kicking the person, they should tell the person 'please get into the van'. He says this is the Sattvik way of dealing which will help in overcoming the negativity in the other. What the police normally does is Rajasik or Tamasik ways. I personally know a police officer in Hyderabad who is a regular to our Math and an initiated devotee. He narrated that after regular visits to the math and reading Gospel and listening to various lectures his way of life has changed. He says now a days he does not use abusive language or behave rudely with anyone not even the criminals. He is getting much better result with this in his work. He gets more respect from all his colleagues and is more successful in his job.
Jai Thakur

Tirtha

[Sejal Mandavia]

The sinner has to do sadhana for going forward to the spiritual path so they have future and the saits have passed through the stuggles to overcome their weaknesses so they had past.That is why it is shown these wordsaccording to me. --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Prabesh Lohani <prabes...@gmail.com> wrote:

[manisha k]

Actually every one has a future.. as growth / evolution is a continuous process.. also a saintly person, till one achieves Buddhatavm, Enlightenment  -then on' all Karma till then get disolved & no further Karma is created. So in that way, the person is truly Liberated!  - with no Karmic baggage. So, for saying-sake the person has a Past, which is only a 'resolved story', with regards to karma.  

Where as, a sinner surely has a Future in the sense of  'Scope'..  Scope to change / tranform -with reference to Karma & his / her life.

 

LokAh SamastAh Sukhino Bhavantu

[Utpal Chakrabarty]

Hari Om Ramakrishna,

 

Dear Mr. Lohani and Devotees

 

Pranam,

 

Here is my take which is based on my interpretation of the following sloka: 

 

Sloka: “Om – Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat purnamudachyate, Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnamevavashisyate.”

My interpretation: “That is whole, this is whole, from whole comes out of whole. If Whole is subtracted from whole, still whole is left.” (Avatar is the  Bramhan - born perfect)

 

The saint and sinner concept does not apply to certain "humans" who take the human form (Dibaho) out of their compassion for the humans, whom we call Avatars and believe that they are born perfect and absolute although they appear to be limited due to their bodies. Oscar Wilde perhaps did not mean to include Avatars because Avatars neither have a past not a future but eternal. 

 

Incidentally, the other night I was listening to one of the speeches which I downloaded from Advaita Ashram's web site:

 

Topic :	Swami Vivekanander Aloke Vedanta
Speaker :	Swami Purnatmananda
Date :	2009-01-8
Language :	Bengali
Venue :	Advaita Ashrama Auditorium

It was on Swamiji and Vedanta. While explaining as to why Swamiji called all humans as the children of immortal bliss, he said that although a cow or a wall does not tell a a lie or steal, they do not have the potential to achieve divinity, while a human who performs all sinful acts has that potential and by means of sadhana, becomes perfect etc. 

 

Towards the middle (around the 47th minute of the over 1 hour speech ) he says that "...there is no saint who do not have a past...". I was alarmed and when I heard him saying "...was Gadadhar Chaterjee (the human and hence limited and imperfect) born from Chandramani's womb as Sri Ramakrishna (Avatar and hence perfect)? No...."- insinuating that even Thakur had to become perfect by performing sadhana! I could not listen to it any further! 

 

What does the above speech evince? 

 

Jai Gurumaharaj Ji Ki Jai        

 

 

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[Bharat Churiwala]

Respected Utpalda,
 
Honestly speaking I did not see any relevance of this shloka with what Oscar Wilde said about SAINT or SINNER!!
 
However, what you mentioned about Swamiji's MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING i.e.
 

 

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within, by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy -- by one or more or all of these -- and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.

CW Volume 1 [Page : 257]
 

According to this theory BIGGEST THIEF, ROBBER, CRIMINAL also has DIVINITY UNMANIFESTED!!!! In that way EVERY SINNER CAN BECOME A SAINT!!!
 
This is what my understanding of the matter.
 
Bharat

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[Utpal Chakrabarty]

Hari Om Ramakrishna,

 

Dear Mr. Churiwala and Devotees,

 

Pranam

 

As I understand, the sloka is in the definition of Avatars who are always perfect, do not have a past or future but exists in eternity, who we take as ordinary humans. The concept of saint and sinner of Oscar Wilde does not apply to them. That is the relevance of teh sloka.

 

Jai Gurumaharah Ji Ki Jai

 

Utpal Chakrabarty

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