Socratic Dialogue

[DK Matai]

Dear Friends

We now understand why Socrates was forced to drink hemlock by
Athenians!

If you are unfamiliar with the the Trial of Socrates, please read
this:

http://www.mi2g.net/cgi/mi2g/press/081006.php

No matter what we do, in the spirit of Socrates, it is difficult to
please everybody! Just observe his dilemmas in Speech 1, Speech 2 and
Speech 3!

No matter how sincere we are, in the spirit of Socrates, some members
are not willing to appreciate the dilemmas that are faced when
confronting the full torrent of the rivers merging into the sea via
waterfalls and complex deltas.

1. All your genuine and legitimate messages to progress HQR have been
posted. Always!

2. If any member is going to blatantly promote one hyperlink, one
website or one published book ten times a day, either directly or via
friends, would HQR members want us to publish that?

3. Think about it: Why do some members ask to be removed from HQR if
they get repetition?

4. Simply seeking to publish everything, including all the dross, or
finding faults in day-to-day running of the esteemed HQR group and
poking hard at it is unfair. Is that Socratic dialogue that progresses
HQR or sows the seeds of doubt without any benefit?

5. Then there are those, who are simply sending messages to each
other about personal matters, how does that help Socratic inquiry in
the context of HQR?

It is about time that those who wish to accuse HQR of not conducting
Socratic dialogue, stand up and tell us what is their definition of
Socratic dialogue. Please do that, we are listening! Or, hold your
peace!

We believe Holistic Quantum Relativity is conducting Socratic dialogue
in the spirit of Socrates given the limitations of the medium!

If you are happy with HQR, please let us know! If you are not happy
with HQR, please let us know!

Love


DK and Family

PS: By the way, when we write DK and Family, it is in the spirit of
"Vasudaiva Kutumbhakum" in Sanskrit or "The Entire World is One
Family!"

[heartphone]

Dear DK,

I would like to tell you that I am happy with HQR as it is and that I
am
grateful for having been able to comment on the views of others and
to tell people about some of the things that keep me busy.

Everyone here is able to read ones own comments back if one goes to
ones pofile.

One of the things I have been appreciating from having been a part of
IntentBlog
and HQR and having been able to read back my own comments during all
the
discussions that have taken place, is, that I have grown. I have grown
a lot!

I have been learning, I have made mistakes, sometimes I felt downright
rotten and
sometimes I felt in seventh heaven. All the ingredients you can also
find back in
normal life.

And I can only say: That's life! With all its ups and downs.

I see the learning curve in all of it and the older one gets, the more
one is able
to see the relativity of it too.

I see Twitter at this moment as a cool Trend, a Hype. But I have been
reading
Tweets of many many people, clicking from one to the other.

And I am convinced that many people do experience the merits of it in
their daily lives.

I learnt from walking a labyrinth that life always goes forwards
(albeit sometimes with
large roundabouts), while I feel myself in the middle of it. So surely
New Ways will be found in
every aspect of Life and in society.

We are in a transitional period at this moment. We have so much
challenges to
face, but despite all contradictions I am convinced we can handle them
all.

I have much faith in the present generations that confront them and in
the youth
who have already so many new ideas.

All the best to you and the whole family and thanks for the fruitful
conversations.

Appreciation and much love, genuinely from the heart.

Mieke

[Yasuhiko Genku Kimura]

Dear DK:

I have read Plato many times over including the parts of his work you
mention. I have no time right now to go over your questions in full, but as
I said, I have no reason to question the sincerity of your intention to
conduct and build Socratic Dialogue online. Personally I always intend to
contribute to and build on conversations when I am writing - for the spirit
of inquiry and the evolutionary movement of dialogues are essential
components of Socratic Dialogue.

That intention is usually frustrated by the lack of or no response or
someone opining a platitude. But occasionally a conversation becomes built.
I had an experience of having a rudimentary form of Socratic Dialogue with
Richard, Surendra, Patrick, Dr. Khat, and Buddy, with whom I am sure I can
have more advanced dialogues in person. By the way, some of those postings
of mine have never been seen in this forum. I assumed that it was because
of some internet issues, not intentional omission.

HRQ as it is, as I also said, has a great value, regardless of what you call
it. However, as with most everything else, there is a space for
improvement. And you, like everyone else, have your own personal biases,
which are reflected in your inclusion or exclusion of certain postings and
also in your own postings. Overall, this is one of the best online forums
around and with all that I have said in mind, I would like to sincerely
commend you for your effort. That we have the space to express a thought
such as this is ipso facto a testament. If you want more of my thought or
input, I will be happy to share with you more comprehensively but only after
I return from my current trip.

All the best to you and your family,

With love and warmest regards,

Yasuhiko Genku Kimura
ge...@via-visioninaction.org
www.via-visioninaction.org

Vision without action is empty.
Action without vision is blind.

Opinion and ideology divide.
Quest and commitment unite.

[John R. Naugle]

Greetings from Atlanta: City of Peace,

Hello DK and other peacemakers...

I am happy with, and support HQR's Socratic dialogue.... which means A) I also support freedom of speech, B) those who are unreasonable, and C) those who "want to blatantly promote one hyperlink." Note: without the promotion of links I would not have new friends and be as informed, plus I would not have known about HQR.

Everyone talks about Socrates... but what about Plato? HQR is like a city and to better understand HQR... consider this quote by Plato:

"This City is what it is because
our citizens are what they are."
--- Plato

This quote will also help us grow...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying
to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends
on the unreasonable man."
--- George Bernard Shaw

I want to wish everyone a Happy Mother's Day (we all have Mothers and although we may not currently have them we still know powerful women who are Mothers... I am you and you are me and we are all together).

"If we have no peace,
it is because we have forgotten
that we belong to each other."
--- Mother Teresa

HQR Proponents... Please enjoy the 15 additional relevant quotes below. We are growing HQR... and doing so in a peaceful manner, yes?

Courage, Peace and Love in...
Atlanta: City of Peace and globally,
John
____________
John R. Naugle
Founder & Executive Director
Atlanta: City of Peace, Inc.
www.ATLpeace.org
www.myspace.com/ATLpeace
www.linkedin.com/in/ATLpeace

Board of Directors
The Gandhi Foundation USA
www.GandhiFoundationUSA.com
Chair: The Gandhi Center (ATL) Feasibility Study
_________________________________________________

"Peace cannot be kept by force.
It can only be achieved by understanding."
--- Albert Einstein

WE are builders for eternity! How and what are you (and WE) building?

Builders for Eternity
"Isn't it strange how princes and kings,
and clowns that caper in sawdust rings,
and common people, like you and me,
are builders for eternity?
Each is given a list of rules;
a shapeless mass; a bag of tools.
And each must fashion, before life is flown,
A stumbling block, or a Stepping-Stone."
--- R. Lee Sharpe

"The good we secure for ourselves is precarious
and uncertain… until it is secured for all of us
and incorporated into our common life."
Jane Addams (1860-1935)
1st Woman to win Nobel Peace Prize

"It is better to light a candle
than to curse the darkness."
--- Old Chinese proverb

"Brave speaking is the most entire
and richest sacrifice to the gods."
--- Henry David Thoreau

"It isn't enough to talk about peace;
one must believe in it.
And it isn't enough to believe in it;
one must work at it."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt 

"We human beings are at our best...
when we are engaged in
the act of transforming the world,
in the act of history making."
--- Yasuhiko Genku Kimura

“We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.”
--- Winston Churchill

I'm going to find a way
to do what I need to do
with what I have to do it with.
--- Donna Miller

"You can dream, create, design and build
the most wonderful place in the world...
but it requires people to make the dream a reality."
--- Walt Disney

"The simple step of a courageous individual
is not to take part in the lie."
 -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

"One person can make a difference,
and every one should try."
--- John F. Kennedy

"Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the Universe.
But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help the greatest of all causes,
goodwill among all and peace on Earth."
--- Albert Einstein

"If it is our privilege to be independent,
it is equally our duty to be inter-dependent."
--- Gandhi

"The hope of a secure and livable world lies with
disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to
justice, peace and brotherhood."
--- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[Harbhajan Singh]

I concur with almost everything what Mieke has said. Moreover, I am happy with writing my piece at gmail and leave it at that; I have seldom gone to check whether it has been published at HQR group. I even did not know until sometime back that the messages were being moderated. But even when I have known it now it does not bother me, I think it is the domain of the moderator, I have done what I wanted to do and that is all for me and that makes me happy. I do not believe in interfering in moderator's domain.

Harb

[Lady Montagu]

Thanks for that John   It is good to be reminded of the quotes of the Great and the Good, and to be introduced to some new ones   Peacefully ...

 

Best wishes,

 

Fiona

---

From: holistic-quantu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:holistic-quantu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John R. Naugle
Sent: Sunday, 10 May 2009 17:41
To: holistic-quantu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HQR] Re: Socratic Dialogue

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[Harbhajan Singh]

As for adapting and changing I have written my own axiom (if it is the right word...I do not know much English)

"Change what you cannot bear, bear what you cannot change."

Harb

[Richard]

Separating the Wheat from the Chaff.

The chaff or husk comes along as part of the seed grain; it’s a
natural part of the wheat. To utilize the goodness of the wheat, we
separate the chaff from the grain. One most popular and efficient
method is threshing. In threshing man gives the wheat up to what to do
the separation? Man gives the wheat up to the wind to do the
separation, for to do it with his own fingers in a linear fashion
would be grossly inefficient and impractical.

Such as it is I suggested four years ago in the dialog that we develop
such a system designed to support the requirements for Socratic
dialog. At the same time introducing the Crème principle a notion
provided by nature, what I did was transfer that in natural
application to a system that could be created by man or if allowed
would happen naturally. I also indicated that this would parlay into a
system for participatory self government using the new tools that
would be coming available to all. The chief design requirement in the
design of all the new systems was to engineer ego self interest out of
the system so that it could not exert to strong an influence over
design, decision, and execution. Such that our product would be the
result of the sum of individual self interests integrated. Individual
self interest is represented but in a way that maintains balance in
proper proportion to it’s presence in the system. In the system would
be a digital wind that would separate the wheat from chaff in the
dialog and the cream would rise to the top and here the world could
place it’s attention.

At the same time in the wisdom of understanding I articulated the need
for the protection of individual sovereignty and this applies at all
levels including nations of people. For collectivism, conformity, and
central control is not conducive to evolution it only supports order.
It is the rebel, the revolutionary, the eccentric, the heretic, the
outcast, the one that marches to beat of a different drummer that
induces and allows the collective body to evolve. Therefore the lone
voice and actor must be heard in the dialog and it’s free agency
protected for it is essential to the survival of the body as a whole.
For here we find growth, adaptation, invention, innovation, and
ingenuity and the proper questioning of the status quo.

As I have written in the past, in the dialog, we might liken the chaff
to ego chatter, and the notion was not to silence the ego chatter with
force but to create a voice of spirit and wisdom of greater volume so
that the ego chatter is insignificant upon the ears becoming nothing
more than background noise. This voice would be the collective voice
born of each informed individual voice. If we were to attempt to
silence certain individuals then we might also silence the one voice
that might be speaking with insight, wisdom and intelligence even
though it did not have the status quo credentials and agenda. If only
the members of the status quo could speak into the dialog we would do
nothing but maintain the status quo and eventually perish through a
failure to grow. I put forth the notion of a measured and
authenticated voice of the people which would carry it’s full weight
in proceedings and voting, and that the individuals representing those
people in the institutions of self government would be able to carry
out the will and intention of their constituency in a wise and liberal
manner.

We should mention formality because this is often an area of
contention in Socratic dialog. Formality is another word for structure
and order. There is time for structure and a time for the unstructured
mode of operation. A time to dress nicely to state the importance of
an event and a time to run naked through the streets to protest and
give voice, they called that streaking in the 70’s and now the fashion
seems stadiums rather than streets.

Order actually arises naturally from Chaos especially more so with
some help from intelligence, I present the universe as empirical
evidence. With intelligence and structure out of the chaos of the
individual voices can arise a refined voice representing many and the
contributions many individuals, the collective wisdom and gestalt
intelligence.

With the proper vehicles any single voice can enter the dialog and be
amplified so that is shown to speak as the many think. A single voice
that provides great value and insight can naturally be illustrated to
be such and garner more attention. A group of voices speaking in
harmony it also would also denote. That thought in resonance that
rises to a crescendo becomes “thy will be done”.

This would not be a balanced perspective if we fail to include a
safeguard. A council of wisdom empowered by law and principle, with
checks to protect against collective mob behavior resulting from
ignorance and irrational thinking with it’s reactionary emotionally
driven action. This is especially of concern if there is not existing
a free and independent media and information from all sources so that
none become collectively ill informed or subjected to disinformation
from consolidated non-autonomous control of information flow.

For in understanding all things we find the wisdom in all things and
in wisdom we preserve the freedom for all to pursue their happiness.
As well as the right of each individual to not have their pursuit of
happiness infringed upon by others in their own pursuit; for none can
really truly be happy if their happiness comes at the expense of
another’s happiness. If such pursuit would do so then that pursuit
must be evolved, on the other hand if your unhappiness is due to the
need to evolve, one had better evolve or lose your right to
happiness. For those that like to keep things the same that is not
going to happen due to the natural expansion of the universe and life
in conjunction with change, also known as time. There is only one
thing that is timeless and I am that I am and thou art that I am in
you, the ancient witness. This realization proceeds the coming of the
Kingdom and that on earth is in heaven.

So saith I as the One and not other
Richard Thomas Gerber

P.S

Many things happen somewhat naturally if given the vehicle to do so.
In other words the vehicle will naturally be steered by intelligence
local and or all pervading. It helps to have a concerted and funded
effort to create the vehicles.

Speaking of wheat and chaff…

I remind the world body, that the body of man was not designed to use
wheat as staple for food and it was Amaranth the immortal and
everlasting that was designed for this. Some things perhaps better
left to the production of beer and to feed those animals that have
been designed to digest such substance and to that it is found to be
synergistic. There are elements in wheat that are not synergistic with
human body, and although a source of energy it is not one for
nutrition.

We are reminded of that famous meme, “Man cannot live on bread
alone”.

Let the people demand Amaranth that the farmers will plant it.

[Richard]

That's a very good one Harb, good job.

On 10 May, 13:09, Harbhajan Singh <authorh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As for adapting and changing I have written my own axiom (if it is the right
> word...I do not know much English)
>
> "Change what you cannot bear, bear what you cannot change."
>
> Harb
>

> On 5/10/09, Harbhajan Singh <authorh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I concur with almost everything what Mieke has said. Moreover, I am happy
> > with writing my piece at gmail and leave it at that; I have seldom gone to
> > check whether it has been published at HQR group. I even did not know until
> > sometime back that the messages were being moderated. But even when I have
> > known it now it does not bother me, I think it is the domain of the
> > moderator, I have done what I wanted to do and that is all for me and that
> > makes me happy. I do not believe in interfering in moderator's domain.
>
> > Harb
>

[Harbhajan Singh]

Richard, thanks, seems sometimes the nail gets hit on the head lol.

 

Harb

[adamsunshine]

Well I enjoy this forum and I experience it more like a Symposium that
includes Socratic Diaglogue at times. The good part is that unlike the
exclusive male symposia of not too long ago times we include the
necessary voice of women, thank god!

love,

Patrick

> > > >> Family!"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[James Williams]

God bless you for that AdamSunshine/Patrick. Love the Plato symposium, he got in trouble for revealing the mysteries. Woman revealed the knowledge by taking the apple, but God was a jealous God and she knew there was something up. In the new testement, the love was introduced more and the knowledge was revealed. (Knowledge=  metaphysics/mystery schools). Once the male run patriarchal structure took over, the religion lost most of it's mystery and became a hiarchary of power, aristocracy and Empirism. When the Catholic church went into banking  it was the total sum of power and control over those that didn't question it or look beyond. Thomas Jefferson told us not to let the banks run our government or as a country it's citizens would end up homeless. With the current crisis of foreclosures, economy woes, and bank buy outs boy was he on target. With churches in banking, they catch them from all angles, aay? At least the Catholics appreciate the woman more than many of the other religions who often refer to her as a whore like that's any different than spiritually bankrupt ppl lording over others for greed and power.

 

If you'd like, you may check my blog- it makes no money, there is just more room to write there...

November 16, 2008

This is not short , but could really be worth the read 

for points on living, subjects like these for all of us... and more... if you'd like... it had a good reponse.

 

Love the stop working for money week idea. Even a day might help! I know they've got Labor Day, but that's completely different. Like Earth day, it could be Forget Money Day- Enjoy!  Or something....
Thanks my man, you've got it going on! Two snaps up!

Namaste, Cynthia Etcheverry

---

From: adamsunshine <adamsu...@gmail.com>
To: Holistic Quantum Relativity (HQR) <holistic-quantu...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:05:07 PM

Subject: [HQR] Re: Socratic Dialogue