RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

[Darryl Brambilla]

Ken / All,

 

Hockey people around the world are interested in one thing – going to a world championship and representing their country and the highest level possible and competing against the best players in the world in their respective divisions. Be it Elite, Masters, or Junior – all have the same common goal to compete and bring home that medal.

 

The challenge we face is that CMAS forced the players around the world into a corner by demanding numerous thing and this caused the hockey community to break up. CMAS wanted the world championships to be elite focused and not having Masters / Juniors as part of that, or hosting it at a separate time / place. This is unfeasible in a sport such as ours where we are still very small but growing. As well, to host a championship every 4 years did not sit well with many players. CMAS also threatened to withhold funding to organizations who supported the WAA, or would not allow players in other CMAS sports to compete at their events if their country supported UW hockey with the WAA. This is not constructive – this is blackmail no matter how you look at it. CMAS made these demands (and others) without consulting those that it mattered to the most and to those that make the championships a success – the players. It is no wonder WAA was created out of this mess.

 

While I highly respect Tomas both as a player and as the new president of CMAS UWH commission and I believe he truly wants what is best for all of us – to bring everyone together again – this is something he alone cannot fix. So long as the narrow minded views and inflexibility of other CMAS representatives remain behind the scenes controlling this outcome we can never move forward. At some point, CMAS needs to LISTEN AND WORK WITH the players wants and needs and find a compromise. They can only achieve this through open and constructive dialog and finding a compromise that works for everyone. If this does not happen then the communities will remain as they are.

 

While my country officially on paper supports CMAS, I personally do not. They lost my respect long ago when they did the above mentioned things to many countries and forced us all into a no win situation. I do not believe CMAS has put their best foot forward to make amends and until I see that happen I personally will not support them. These are my own personal views and not necessarily those of my country although many do feel this way.

 

I would highly encourage Tomas to find out from the people making decisions at CMAS what they want and what they are willing to negotiate with before proceeding to work with the WAA. There is no point in wasting everyones time to try and resolve this if they are not willing to compromise.

 

 

Kind Regards,

Darryl Brambilla

Chief Referee - Canada

 

---

From: Ken Kirby [mailto:kenk...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:02 PM
To: GRAHAM HENDERSON
Cc: 'tom hockeysub'; 'Arnold Piccoli'; 'Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina'; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; 'Cas Teulings'; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; 'Jane Gilligan'; 'Jason Mieziz'; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; leele...@hotmail.com; Lisa....@bigpond.com; 'Liscoe, Robert'; 'Neil Dixon'; robs...@clear.net.nz; 'Sandor Duis'; 'burbuja'; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; marta pons de molina; Tristan Reynard; keith dunkinson
Subject: Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

Hi all

One of the things we must do is to lose all of this negative abrasion.

We are all agreed that we want the underwater hockey world back together.

I know I am personally not interested in restricted elite competition although I am sure winning teams will be glad to go to such games. Let the CMAS games worry about that and we will concentrate on our world cup or whatever you want to call it.

Our aim should be to repeat Sheffield 2006 where all categories enjoyed playing and socialising together, so whatever games are held should be for all.

We need one Commission and presently I am behind CMAS - we must find the way to merge and work together.

I am sure we can find the way to organise the games that we want regardless of CMAS  rules.

Think positively.

Ken Kirby
GB

GRAHAM HENDERSON wrote:

Tom,

 

I don’t know why you addressed this email to all these people but if you do “reply all” to one of my emails then at least give them the whole picture.  Your contact with Natalia was to tell her to drop Colombia as a world championship and make it elite only world cup, do you honestly think that players would have spent their hard earned money to go to Colombia for an event that wasn’t a world championship?  At no time did you have a formal discussion with the WAA who had the contract with Colombia; in fact you excluded me in your discussions with them.  We were happy to do a joint world championship but you were told by your CMAS minders that this can not happen.

 

Also don’t be so sensitive as my “rumours from Europe” quip was aimed at certain people in the UK, Tom in Australia you told us that you would bring hockey back together and change CMAS, so far you have made all these decisions without working with us, all your commission has done is show us a calendar that is totally inadequate for those that live outside of Europe, you have reduced our world championships to a six team competition and have not changed one thing within CMAS.  Tom when you spoke to me in Australia I thought you were saying  that we would work together for the common good, but so far you have just done everything to resurrect CMAS just the way it was and then try to legitimize it as though it is change.

 

Tom I hope you will come to Colombia in your role as CMAS president so that we can discuss all the problems we have, with you directly.  It seems to us that how you want to bring hockey back together is to wipe out the WAA and then work on CMAS, four Presidents before you tried to fix CMAS when there was no WAA and they failed, you need the WAA there so you have leverage on CMAS, and I have always said we are happy to rejoin CMAS when it has changed.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

From: tom hockeysub [mailto:t...@hockeysub.com]
Sent: Monday, 16 November 2009 5:32 AM
To: Arnold Piccoli; Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina; GRAHAM HENDERSON
Cc: a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; Cas Teulings; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane Gilligan; Jason Mieziz; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; leele...@hotmail.com; Lisa....@bigpond.com; Liscoe, Robert; Neil Dixon; robs...@clear.net.nz; Sandor Duis; burbuja; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

Hi Jamie

 

I have been in contact with Nathalia and we did try hard to make it working it didn’t work  that is bad but I did wish her/you good luck

 

Graham,

for you information when any bobby ask me about Colombia I did say ask them I m not in charge and contact them so you can keep your “numerous rumours form europe”

 

Arny,

 

If I do want to derail their work I ll have planned the CMAS tournament at the same time as WAA.

 

To all

 

The split is bad for our sport we the CMAS will try to bring back every player in the loop, but keep writing nonsense on the web will not work but you gad to act like this be nice to erase My a-mail address

 

 

Best regards

 

Thomas de Trébons

President of the CMAS Underwater Hockey commission

t...@hockeysub.com

tel : +33 (0)6 03 06 03 69

 

De : Arnold Piccoli [mailto:pic...@iinet.net.au]
Envoyé : samedi 14 novembre 2009 12:10
À : Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina; GRAHAM HENDERSON
Cc : a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; Cas Teulings; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane Gilligan; Jason Mieziz; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; leele...@hotmail.com; Lisa....@bigpond.com; Liscoe, Robert; Neil Dixon; robs...@clear.net.nz; Sandor Duis; burbuja; Tania....@nike.com; tom hockeysub; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com
Objet : Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

Hey Jaime ,

                  Great to hear all is well and that it is going ahead as planned , so looking forward to coming and seeing for myself your beautiful country . Sad to see CMAS playing their games again to undermine all your hard work and trying to derail our worlds ! . It is so obviuos they want them back , but for the moment you will have to show them HOW to run the best show in town and I am sure you will .You have wanted this for a long time and have done the hard yards to get it , Viva' Columbia .

 

All the Best ,

 

Arny

 

Australian Mens Elite Coach .

----- Original Message -----

From: Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina

To: GRAHAM HENDERSON

Cc: a.vanij...@tiscali.nl ; Arnie Piccoli ; CROS...@aol.com ; Cas Teulings ; Ciaran....@boimail.com ; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au ; darryl.b...@eds.com ; gregory...@msn.com ; Jane Gilligan ; Jason Mieziz ; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp ; e...@sun.ac.za ; leele...@hotmail.com ; Lisa....@bigpond.com ; Liscoe, Robert ; Neil Dixon ; robs...@clear.net.nz ; Sandor Duis ; burbuja ; Tania....@nike.com ; tom deTrebons ; refere...@yahoogroups.com ; british...@yahoogroups.com ; w...@auf.com.au ; ozhoc...@auf.com.au ; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com ; uwh...@yahoogroups.com ; hock...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

And here in Colombia we are waiting for you guys.

2009/11/12 GRAHAM HENDERSON <graha...@bigpond.com>

Hello All,



There seems to be numerous rumours going around about the WAA tournament in
Colombia and it would appear that these rumours are emanating from somewhere
in Europe.   Just to set the record straight, the WAA world championships
will be going ahead in Colombia as scheduled on the WAA web site.  This will
be an open tournament for all age groups and divisions, and it will be the
biggest event in 2010 because everyone can enter.  This will be the only
tournament where it is not limited to the top six men and women's teams as
is done by CMAS, so if you want to be part of what may be the last truly
open world championship, then book your ticket to Colombia and be part of
this very special event



The world championship Colombian web site will be up shortly, watch the WAA
web site or join the WTD group for news,



See you all in Colombia,








For the latest World AquaChallenge news visit www.auf.org.au

 

For the latest World AquaChallenge news visit www.auf.org.au

 

[Uncle Terry]

Folks,

 

Let me first say that any comments I make are personal opinions, not official positions of US Underwater Hockey.  Simply, I agree almost 100% with Darryl's statements.  The players, coaches, and officials of various national teams are interested in competing at world championships against the best players from other countries.  The reason we have supported WAA is that those working in that organization seemed to have the best interests of hockey people at heart, which is something that has clearly not been a concern of CMAS.  Historically, all CMAS had done is force the people attending Worlds to pay substantial additional money (which comes out of players' pockets in most countries) so that a bunch of "officials" who know nothing about hockey can get trips to the site of Worlds and have a paid vacation.  There were certainly some in CMAS that worked in the interests of hockey, but they were in the minority.  CMAS wasted a lot of hockey peoples' time over issues like whether a team that CMAS didn't recognize played in a division at Worlds that CMAS also didn't recognize.  And then CMAS decided that, of the 40 or more teams that have participated in recent Worlds, only 12 should be allowed to attend a Worlds.

 

Our sport is small in numbers compared to most.  Many of the same people involved with the elite teams are also involved with Juniors and Masters teams (family members, coaches, etc.).  A world championship for hockey which includes the different divisions makes a LOT more sense than an "elite" championship along with fin swimmers and rugby players.  And you can put as many underwater sports as you want together in a championship and you're still not going to get any interest in the event from 99.99% of the population.  So CMAS's idea of a joint championship is just plain silly.

 

I am glad to see that Thomas is involved in trying to get CMAS on track.  He is a sincere and dedicated hockey person, which is a whole lot more than I can say for a lot of the CMAS decision makers of the past.  But I don't see what CMAS has to offer us.  The WAA is an organization totally focused on hockey, and what they've done since creation is a lot more beneficial to our sport than what CMAS has done.  Graham is not perfect, but I've never seen him take a position that was totally abhorent to all hockey players, nor one that he couldn't at least justify was best for hockey in his opinion.

 

I would propose the following four year cycle for tournaments, rather than the one Graham suggested:

 

Year 1- World Championship for all current divisions of hockey

Year 2- European and Southern Hemisphere championships (or other zone championships)

Year 3- World Championship for all current divisions of hockey

Year 4- European and Southern Hemisphere championships (or other zone championships)

Year 5- repeat year one

Year 6- repeat year two,,, etc.

 

Every four years is too long between Worlds, especially for divisions like the Juniors. For the most part under-19 players have about a 2-3 year window of opportunity to play at Worlds (from the time they're old/good enough to make their national team to the time they're, uh, no longer under-19).  The enthusiasm and total support available by having the multiple divisions at Worlds has too many benefits to enumerate.

 

I don't see any reason to belong to CMAS unless they conform almost entirely to the structure that the WAA has established (which is based on the structure we used to have under CMAS).  Compromise has value, but I believe most of the compromising needs to be done by CMAS (if you can call meeting the needs of a sports' players a compromise).

 

--Terry

 

 

--

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[Ben Tolsky]

It seems that this discussion between CMAS and WAA can easily be solved.
Clearly those who support CMAS do so because they see the logo and
expect that if they make it to Worlds that they will be entitled to free
Starbucks coffee. While those who support WAA, like me, don't drink
coffee, like me. But perhaps we can make everyone happy, both the
coffee drinkers and the non-coffee drinkers of the world.

So I propose we change the WAA logo to a knock off of the Dunkin Donuts
logo. If you like coffee, Dunkin Donuts serves coffee, if you don't
like coffee Dunkin Donuts serves donuts. Its a win win situation. Go
to a WAA tournament and recieve free coffee and donuts. So I propose
that the WAA takes the Dunkin Donuts logo, keep the same colors and the
same words, just replace the little Registerd Trademark symbol with a
really small WAA.

On a side note, if Dunkin Donuts tries to sue us, we'll just knock off a
Krispy Kreme logo instead.

And to those CMAS loving Canadians (thats you Darryl), we will create a
regional Tim Hortons knock off logo that will be used exclusively in
your pretend country. We will also buy the Toronto Maple Leafs and move
them to a real hockey town like Honolulu.

Ben Tolsky

> Hockey people around the world are interested in one thing � going

> to a world championship and representing their country and the
> highest level possible and competing against the best players in the
> world in their respective divisions. Be it Elite, Masters, or Junior

> � all have the same common goal to compete and bring home that medal.

>
>
>
> The challenge we face is that CMAS forced the players around the
> world into a corner by demanding numerous thing and this caused the
> hockey community to break up. CMAS wanted the world championships to
> be elite focused and not having Masters / Juniors as part of that,
> or hosting it at a separate time / place. This is unfeasible in a
> sport such as ours where we are still very small but growing. As
> well, to host a championship every 4 years did not sit well with
> many players. CMAS also threatened to withhold funding to
> organizations who supported the WAA, or would not allow players in
> other CMAS sports to compete at their events if their country

> supported UW hockey with the WAA. This is not constructive � this is

> blackmail no matter how you look at it. CMAS made these demands (and
> others) without consulting those that it mattered to the most and to

> those that make the championships a success � the players. It is no

> wonder WAA was created out of this mess.
>
>
>
> While I highly respect Tomas both as a player and as the new
> president of CMAS UWH commission and I believe he truly wants what

> is best for all of us � to bring everyone together again � this is

> something he alone cannot fix. So long as the narrow minded views
> and inflexibility of other CMAS representatives remain behind the
> scenes controlling this outcome we can never move forward. At some
> point, CMAS needs to LISTEN AND WORK WITH the players wants and
> needs and find a compromise. They can only achieve this through open
> and constructive dialog and finding a compromise that works for
> everyone. If this does not happen then the communities will remain
> as they are.
>
>
>
> While my country officially on paper supports CMAS, I personally do
> not. They lost my respect long ago when they did the above mentioned
> things to many countries and forced us all into a no win situation.
> I do not believe CMAS has put their best foot forward to make amends
> and until I see that happen I personally will not support them.
> These are my own personal views and not necessarily those of my
> country although many do feel this way.
>
>
>
> I would highly encourage Tomas to find out from the people making
> decisions at CMAS what they want and what they are willing to
> negotiate with before proceeding to work with the WAA. There is no
> point in wasting everyones time to try and resolve this if they are
> not willing to compromise.
>
>
>
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Darryl Brambilla
>
> Chief Referee - Canada
>
>
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ken Kirby [mailto:kenk...@btinternet.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:02 PM
> *To:* GRAHAM HENDERSON
> *Cc:* 'tom hockeysub'; 'Arnold Piccoli'; 'Jaime Andr�s Parra

> Ospina'; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; 'Cas
> Teulings'; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au;
> darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; 'Jane Gilligan';
> 'Jason Mieziz'; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za;
> leele...@hotmail.com; Lisa....@bigpond.com; 'Liscoe, Robert';
> 'Neil Dixon'; robs...@clear.net.nz; 'Sandor Duis'; 'burbuja';
> Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com;
> british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au;
> ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com;
> uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; marta pons de
> molina; Tristan Reynard; keith dunkinson

> *Subject:* Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> One of the things we must do is to lose all of this negative abrasion.
>
> We are all agreed that we want the underwater hockey world back
> together.
>
> I know I am personally not interested in restricted elite
> competition although I am sure winning teams will be glad to go to
> such games. Let the CMAS games worry about that and we will
> concentrate on our world cup or whatever you want to call it.
>
> Our aim should be to repeat Sheffield 2006 where all categories
> enjoyed playing and socialising together, so whatever games are held
> should be for all.
>
> We need one Commission and presently I am behind CMAS - we must find
> the way to merge and work together.
>
> I am sure we can find the way to organise the games that we want
> regardless of CMAS rules.
>
> Think positively.
>
> Ken Kirby
> GB
>
> GRAHAM HENDERSON wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
>
>

> I don�t know why you addressed this email to all these people but if
> you do �reply all� to one of my emails then at least give them the

> whole picture. Your contact with Natalia was to tell her to drop
> Colombia as a world championship and make it elite only world cup,
> do you honestly think that players would have spent their hard

> earned money to go to Colombia for an event that wasn�t a world

> championship? At no time did you have a formal discussion with the
> WAA who had the contract with Colombia; in fact you excluded me in
> your discussions with them. We were happy to do a joint world
> championship but you were told by your CMAS minders that this can
> not happen.
>
>
>

> Also don�t be so sensitive as my �rumours from Europe� quip was

> aimed at certain people in the UK, Tom in Australia you told us that
> you would bring hockey back together and change CMAS, so far you
> have made all these decisions without working with us, all your
> commission has done is show us a calendar that is totally inadequate
> for those that live outside of Europe, you have reduced our world
> championships to a six team competition and have not changed one
> thing within CMAS. Tom when you spoke to me in Australia I thought
> you were saying that we would work together for the common good,
> but so far you have just done everything to resurrect CMAS just the
> way it was and then try to legitimize it as though it is change.
>
>
>
> Tom I hope you will come to Colombia in your role as CMAS president
> so that we can discuss all the problems we have, with you directly.
> It seems to us that how you want to bring hockey back together is to
> wipe out the WAA and then work on CMAS, four Presidents before you
> tried to fix CMAS when there was no WAA and they failed, you need
> the WAA there so you have leverage on CMAS, and I have always said
> we are happy to rejoin CMAS when it has changed.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> *From:* tom hockeysub [mailto:t...@hockeysub.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, 16 November 2009 5:32 AM
> *To:* Arnold Piccoli; Jaime Andr�s Parra Ospina; GRAHAM HENDERSON
> *Cc:* a.vanij...@tiscali.nl
> <mailto:a.vanij...@tiscali.nl>; CROS...@aol.com
> <mailto:CROS...@aol.com>; Cas Teulings;
> Ciaran....@boimail.com <mailto:Ciaran....@boimail.com>;
> cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au <mailto:cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au>;
> darryl.b...@eds.com <mailto:darryl.b...@eds.com>;
> gregory...@msn.com <mailto:gregory...@msn.com>; Jane
> Gilligan; Jason Mieziz; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp
> <mailto:sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp>; e...@sun.ac.za
> <mailto:e...@sun.ac.za>; leele...@hotmail.com
> <mailto:leele...@hotmail.com>; Lisa....@bigpond.com
> <mailto:Lisa....@bigpond.com>; Liscoe, Robert; Neil Dixon;
> robs...@clear.net.nz <mailto:robs...@clear.net.nz>; Sandor Duis;
> burbuja; Tania....@nike.com <mailto:Tania....@nike.com>;
> refere...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:refere...@yahoogroups.com>;
> british...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:british...@yahoogroups.com>; w...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:w...@auf.com.au>; ozhoc...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:ozhoc...@auf.com.au>; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwhc...@yahoogroups.com>; uwh...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwh...@yahoogroups.com>; hock...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:hock...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

>
>
>
> Hi Jamie
>
>
>
> I have been in contact with Nathalia and we did try hard to make it

> working it didn�t work that is bad but I did wish her/you good luck

>
>
>
> Graham,
>
> for you information when any bobby ask me about Colombia I did say
> ask them I m not in charge and contact them so you can keep your

> �numerous rumours form europe�

>
>
>
> Arny,
>
>
>
> If I do want to derail their work I ll have planned the CMAS
> tournament at the same time as WAA.
>
>
>
> To all
>
>
>
> The split is bad for our sport we the CMAS will try to bring back
> every player in the loop, but keep writing nonsense on the web will
> not work but you gad to act like this be nice to erase My a-mail address
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>

> Thomas de Tr�bons

>
> President of the CMAS Underwater Hockey commission
>

> t...@hockeysub.com <mailto:t...@hockeysub.com>

>
> tel : +33 (0)6 03 06 03 69
>
>
>

> *De :* Arnold Piccoli [mailto:pic...@iinet.net.au]
> *Envoy� :* samedi 14 novembre 2009 12:10
> *� :* Jaime Andr�s Parra Ospina; GRAHAM HENDERSON
> *Cc :* a.vanij...@tiscali.nl
> <mailto:a.vanij...@tiscali.nl>; CROS...@aol.com
> <mailto:CROS...@aol.com>; Cas Teulings;
> Ciaran....@boimail.com <mailto:Ciaran....@boimail.com>;
> cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au <mailto:cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au>;
> darryl.b...@eds.com <mailto:darryl.b...@eds.com>;
> gregory...@msn.com <mailto:gregory...@msn.com>; Jane
> Gilligan; Jason Mieziz; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp
> <mailto:sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp>; e...@sun.ac.za
> <mailto:e...@sun.ac.za>; leele...@hotmail.com
> <mailto:leele...@hotmail.com>; Lisa....@bigpond.com
> <mailto:Lisa....@bigpond.com>; Liscoe, Robert; Neil Dixon;
> robs...@clear.net.nz <mailto:robs...@clear.net.nz>; Sandor Duis;
> burbuja; Tania....@nike.com <mailto:Tania....@nike.com>; tom
> hockeysub; refere...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:refere...@yahoogroups.com>;
> british...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:british...@yahoogroups.com>; w...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:w...@auf.com.au>; ozhoc...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:ozhoc...@auf.com.au>; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwhc...@yahoogroups.com>; uwh...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwh...@yahoogroups.com>; hock...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:hock...@googlegroups.com>
> *Objet :* Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

>
>
>
> Hey Jaime ,
>
> Great to hear all is well and that it is going
> ahead as planned , so looking forward to coming and seeing for
> myself your beautiful country . Sad to see CMAS playing their games
> again to undermine all your hard work and trying to derail our
> worlds ! . It is so obviuos they want them back , but for the moment
> you will have to show them HOW to run the best show in town and I am
> sure you will .You have wanted this for a long time and have done
> the hard yards to get it , Viva' Columbia .
>
>
>
> All the Best ,
>
>
>
> Arny
>
>
>
> Australian Mens Elite Coach .
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>

> *From:* Jaime Andr�s Parra Ospina <mailto:jaimea...@gmail.com>
>
> *To:* GRAHAM HENDERSON <mailto:graha...@bigpond.com>
>
> *Cc:* a.vanij...@tiscali.nl
> <mailto:a.vanij...@tiscali.nl> ; Arnie Piccoli
> <mailto:pic...@iinet.net.au> ; CROS...@aol.com
> <mailto:CROS...@aol.com> ; Cas Teulings
> <mailto:cas.te...@flexibility.nl> ;
> Ciaran....@boimail.com <mailto:Ciaran....@boimail.com>
> ; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au
> <mailto:cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au> ; darryl.b...@eds.com
> <mailto:darryl.b...@eds.com> ; gregory...@msn.com
> <mailto:gregory...@msn.com> ; Jane Gilligan
> <mailto:Jane.G...@finance.gov.au> ; Jason Mieziz
> <mailto:mie...@hotmail.com> ; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp
> <mailto:sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp> ; e...@sun.ac.za
> <mailto:e...@sun.ac.za> ; leele...@hotmail.com
> <mailto:leele...@hotmail.com> ; Lisa....@bigpond.com
> <mailto:Lisa....@bigpond.com> ; Liscoe, Robert
> <mailto:rob.l...@solent.ac.uk> ; Neil Dixon
> <mailto:N6...@sky.com> ; robs...@clear.net.nz
> <mailto:robs...@clear.net.nz> ; Sandor Duis
> <mailto:sando...@yahoo.co.uk> ; burbuja
> <mailto:bur...@arrakis.es> ; Tania....@nike.com
> <mailto:Tania....@nike.com> ; tom deTrebons
> <mailto:t...@hockeysub.com> ; refere...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:refere...@yahoogroups.com> ;
> british...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:british...@yahoogroups.com> ; w...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:w...@auf.com.au> ; ozhoc...@auf.com.au
> <mailto:ozhoc...@auf.com.au> ; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwhc...@yahoogroups.com> ; uwh...@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:uwh...@yahoogroups.com> ; hock...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:hock...@googlegroups.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2009 10:58 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [wtd] WAA Worlds

>
>
>
> And here in Colombia we are waiting for you guys.
>
> 2009/11/12 GRAHAM HENDERSON <graha...@bigpond.com

> <mailto:graha...@bigpond.com>>

> <http://www.auf.org.au>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> For the latest World AquaChallenge news visit www.auf.org.au <http://www.auf.org.au>

[Liam Watson]

hang on there fellas,

 

patrick, uncle, darryl, arny, i think you guys should wait until you see exactly what tom and co are planning, rather than jump the gun based on small parts of the plans and past events.

 

"World Championship for all current divisions of hockey" as you refer to has had many teams moaning about the size, length and therefore cost of worlds as the grades expand.

 

cmas is looking to solve these problems by setting up comps for elites and age-group grades...   they are not ditching those grades.  see tristans appeals for peoples preferences on setting agelimits, and timing tournaments in the underwaterhockey world forums.  tristan has been a driving force behind the schools tournaments in nz, and his involvement will be great for the development of the age-group grades.

 

the cmas games is one concept, but it is not the only tournament cmas is planning on running.  lets wait until we can see everything thats planned.

 

you cant say "tom is great, we support tom"  and at the same time judge his plans based on fragments, rumours and the bad decisions of others preceding toms tenure at cmas.  give him a fair go.

 

for those that dont seem to grasp it, we dont need cmas for the starbucks logo...  the strength of cmas is the legitimacy it offers our sport, through its history and the olympic license which gives potential benefits to every country in areas of govt support, commercial sponsorship and media coverage.  whether countries can take advantage of it depends on the country, and truly at the moment far more are unable to get those benefits than those who can....   HOWEVER, moving forward, as our sport grows more countries will be able to try to use those benefits...   and without that legitimacy, surely we handicap ourselves as a tiny minority sport forever.

 

there was a time when i thought that moving away from cmas was on balance the better thing to do....   however, there are now new people involved within cmas who are hockey people with untold years of hockey experience, who are keen to work to make things work as they havent before.  i think they deserve a chance, as committed hockey people running our sport is the preference of everyone, and if they can do it with the benefits of cmas behind them, thats undoubtedly the best option for the development of our sport.

 

the yearly plan everyone is asking for will surely be circulated soon, and when it is, then we can judge it and organise our plans accordingly.

 

liam

nz

---

From: Patrick E O'Brien [mailto:patrick...@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 3:46 p.m.
To: Uncle Terry; Darryl Brambilla; 'Ken Kirby'; 'GRAHAM HENDERSON'
Cc: 'tom hockeysub'; 'Arnold Piccoli'; 'Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina'; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; 'Cas Teulings'; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; 'Jane Gilligan'; 'Jason Mieziz'; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; leele...@hotmail.com; Lisa....@bigpond.com; 'Liscoe, Robert'; 'Neil Dixon'; robs...@clear.net.nz; 'Sandor Duis'; 'burbuja'; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; Hockeynet; 'marta pons de molina'; 'Tristan Reynard'; 'keith dunkinson'; greg...@live.com
Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Uncle Terry:

 

Indeed. Simply put, let's keep a stiff upper lip and relinquish CMAS affiliation altogether.

[Sparky]

Hello Liam and all others who care to read further -

Thanks for the response. I agree with you to a great extent that it
would be beneficial to have a supportive orgaization that could
organize, market, support, and provide legitimacy for underwater
hockey. Unfortunately, I don't think CMAS is currently the
organization to do so. CMAS in the past, and presently, has the
control and the power to dictate what it wants by way of a monopoly on
the sport. Thus far CMAS continues control its underwater hockey
members through captivity (at least in terms of funding for players,
etc.). I can't say that I've ever thought CMAS at large has ever had
our (underwater hockey's) best interest in mind. As I see it, CMAS has
a view of underwater hockey existing for CMAS rather than CMAS being a
supporter of UWH. I can't say that I know how CMAS has ever supported
me as an underwater hockey player, but I can tell you how much money
I've given to CMAS over the years (only because I was required to).

There is a new underwater hockey adminstration in CMAS that does seem
to have the best interests of underwater hockey in mind. Although the
UWH component of CMAS seems to be headed in a better direction than in
the past, I doubt they have the power over CMAS as an organization to
do what they want to do if CMAS thought there was a better way to go.

After the WC in Sheffied 2006, I traveled Europe talking to delegates
of a number of European countries about the CMAS issue. I supported
CMAS for the most part wanting to bring the UWH world together, even
in contradiction to my countymen's overall thoughts. But after the
ruling decreed by the courts regarding the Jersey conflict, I fail to
support CMAS until they change their power structure. The outcome of
the Jersey case, from what I recall, was that the CMAS underwater
hockey commission did not have grounds to even bring about a case. It
never got to the issue of whether Jersey was a country eligible to
play or not, which here is beside the point. The decision, based on
CMAS's argument, basically determined that underwater hockley players
(or the UWH commision) do not have a say in their own sport and ALWAYS
have to bow down to the CMAS executive board. This is not the type of
organization I'd like to belong to.

As far as I can tell, changes have occurred in CMAS only AFTER the
split and the WAA was formed. If you can tell me that CMAS has changed
the inherent power structure to the point where UWH can make rulings
in it's own sport, then I'll consider being a part of CMAS again.
Until then, and no matter how good the CMAS UWH board is, I'll not
support CMAS. But if it takes members defecting from an organization
to make a change, then what good is that organization to start with?

So even though I might or might not like what the UWH commission is
planning, CMAS can change that in a heartbeat without say from us or
the underwater hockey committee. So I think people can legitimately
say that "Tom is great guy" and simultaneously base CMAS as an
organization based on past performance.

Sean

> From: Patrick E O'Brien [mailto:patrickeobr...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 3:46 p.m.
> To: Uncle Terry; Darryl Brambilla; 'Ken Kirby'; 'GRAHAM HENDERSON'
> Cc: 'tom hockeysub'; 'Arnold Piccoli'; 'Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina';

> a.vanijsseld...@tiscali.nl; CROSEU...@aol.com; 'Cas Teulings';
> Ciaran.McMul...@boimail.com; cmacken...@admin.uwa.edu.au;
> darryl.brambi...@eds.com; gregoryappl...@msn.com; 'Jane Gilligan'; 'Jason
> Mieziz'; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; leeleel...@hotmail.com;
> Lisa.wat...@bigpond.com; 'Liscoe, Robert'; 'Neil Dixon';
> robsd...@clear.net.nz; 'Sandor Duis'; 'burbuja'; Tania.Mcle...@nike.com;
> refereesgu...@yahoogroups.com; britishoctop...@yahoogroups.com;
> w...@auf.com.au; ozhockey...@auf.com.au; uwhcan...@yahoogroups.com;

> uwh...@yahoogroups.com; Hockeynet; 'marta pons de molina'; 'Tristan

> Reynard'; 'keith dunkinson'; greg.b...@live.com

> Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds
>
> Uncle Terry:
>
> Indeed. Simply put, let's keep a stiff upper lip and relinquish CMAS
> affiliation altogether.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Uncle Terry <mailto:unclete...@usa.net>  
> To: Darryl Brambilla <mailto:darryl.brambi...@gmail.com>  ; 'Ken
>
> <mailto:kenki...@btinternet.com> Kirby' ; 'GRAHAM HENDERSON'
> <mailto:graham.h...@bigpond.com>  
> Cc: 'tom hockeysub' <mailto:t...@hockeysub.com>  ; 'Arnold
> <mailto:pic...@iinet.net.au> Piccoli' ; 'Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina'
> <mailto:jaimeandr...@gmail.com>  ; a.vanijsseld...@tiscali.nl ;
> CROSEU...@aol.com ; 'Cas Teulings' <mailto:cas.teuli...@flexibility.nl>  ;
> Ciaran.McMul...@boimail.com ; cmacken...@admin.uwa.edu.au ;
> darryl.brambi...@eds.com ; gregoryappl...@msn.com ; 'Jane Gilligan'
> <mailto:Jane.Gilli...@finance.gov.au>  ; 'Jason Mieziz'
> <mailto:mie...@hotmail.com>  ; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp ; e...@sun.ac.za ;
> leeleel...@hotmail.com ; Lisa.wat...@bigpond.com ; 'Liscoe,
> <mailto:rob.lis...@solent.ac.uk> Robert' ; 'Neil  <mailto:N6...@sky.com>
> Dixon' ; robsd...@clear.net.nz ; 'Sandor  <mailto:sandord...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Duis' ; 'burbuja' <mailto:burb...@arrakis.es>  ; Tania.Mcle...@nike.com ;
> refereesgu...@yahoogroups.com ; britishoctop...@yahoogroups.com ;
> w...@auf.com.au ; ozhockey...@auf.com.au ; uwhcan...@yahoogroups.com ;
> uwh...@yahoogroups.com ; Hockeynet <mailto:hock...@googlegroups.com>  ;
> 'marta pons  <mailto:pons_ma...@hotmail.com> de molina' ; 'Tristan Reynard'
> <mailto:kateandtris...@xtra.co.nz>  ; 'keith dunkinson'
> <mailto:keithdunkin...@hotmail.com>  ; greg.b...@live.com

> ...
>
> read more »
>
>  image001.jpg
> 15KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ben Lee]

Hockey needs to be governed by the players for the players. Plain and simple. I don't want to be told by anyone (CMAS, WAA or otherwise) how this sport is going to operate. I want to have a say!

If you have a proposal you think is going to improve the sport put it forward for an honest vote by the national uwh federations. Now here is the important part: make the majority decision binding! No more board approvals. No more executive decisions. No more rejected recommendation. If the majority of players, as represented by their federations, support a decision enact it.

Let me give a few examples:

1. If the majority on players, as represented by their federation, aren't willing to foot the bill for a CMAS official to visit a world cup then the CMAS official's trip isn't paid for.
2. If the majority of players support Sheffield hosting worlds then Sheffield hosts worlds
3. If the majority of players want worlds to occur on a 4 year rotation... you guessed it! Worlds occur on a 4 yr rotation.

It doesn't matter who our governing body is, who they may or may not be affiliated with, if the players are alienated the sport will fail.

Moses

[Scott Tucker]

Sorry Sean but i didn't read the whole thing.  This part I snipped however was all I was thinking needed to be said.

---

From: Sparky <sean...@gmail.com>
To: Hockeynet - Underwater Hockey International List <hock...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 1:50:38 PM
Subject: Re: [hockeynet:772] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

[Liam Watson]

hi greg,

 

the nz uwh committee has stated that they will support cmas tournaments.

 

members of our committee tried to push a cmas-sanctioned medellin comp, which obviously hasn't happened.  why were they trying to help it happen?  because nz wanted to go to colombia!  a cmas-sanctioned comp in medellin would have been a big unifying step.  big pity.

 

no cmas, means no official nz teams.  i suppose theoretically there is still room for "unofficial" teams.

 

for the why?  some of the why i think i covered in the earlier email wrt olympic license, legitimacy, govt support etc.  for the rest of the why, you can contact bryn and the nzuwh executive, contact details are on the nzuwh website.

 

 

liam

 

 

 

 

 

---

From: Bush, Greg [mailto:g.b...@geos.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2009 3:04 p.m.
To: Liam Watson; Patrick E O'Brien; Uncle Terry; Darryl Brambilla; Ken Kirby; GRAHAM HENDERSON
Cc: tom hockeysub; Arnold Piccoli; Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; Cas Teulings; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane Gilligan; Jason Mieziz; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; Liscoe, Robert; Neil Dixon; robs...@clear.net.nz; Sandor Duis; burbuja; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; Hockeynet; marta pons de molina; Tristan Reynard; keith dunkinson; greg...@live.com
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Liam,

 

All very well, but are NZ sending their best teams to Columbia, and if not, why?

 

Bushy

---

From: Liam Watson [mailto:leele...@hotmail.com]
Sent: 17 November 2009 13:25
To: 'Patrick E O'Brien'; 'Uncle Terry'; 'Darryl Brambilla'; 'Ken Kirby'; 'GRAHAM HENDERSON'
Cc: 'tom hockeysub'; 'Arnold Piccoli'; 'Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina'; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; 'Cas Teulings'; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; 'Jane Gilligan'; 'Jason Mieziz'; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; 'Liscoe, Robert'; 'Neil Dixon'; robs...@clear.net.nz; 'Sandor Duis'; 'burbuja'; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; 'Hockeynet'; 'marta pons de molina'; 'Tristan Reynard'; 'keith dunkinson'; greg...@live.com
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

[Carol Rose]

As I understand it, the French will not attend because the French govt does not allow official travel to Colombia. In Durban, NZ was a major vocal supporter and advocate of the Colombia bid.

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bush, Greg <g.b...@geos.com>
To: Liam Watson <leele...@hotmail.com>; Patrick E O'Brien <patrick...@comcast.net>; Uncle Terry <uncle...@usa.net>; Darryl Brambilla <darryl.b...@gmail.com>; Ken Kirby <kenk...@btinternet.com>; GRAHAM HENDERSON <graha...@bigpond.com>
Cc: tom hockeysub <t...@hockeysub.com>; Arnold Piccoli <pic...@iinet.net.au>; Jaime Andrés Parra Ospina <jaimea...@gmail.com>; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; CROS...@aol.com; Cas Teulings <cas.te...@flexibility.nl>; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane Gilligan <Jane.G...@finance.gov.au>; Jason Mieziz <mie...@hotmail.com>; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; Liscoe, Robert <rob.l...@solent.ac.uk>; Neil Dixon <N6...@sky.com>; robs...@clear.net.nz; Sandor Duis <sando...@yahoo.co.uk>; burbuja <bur...@arrakis.es>; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; Hockeynet <hock...@googlegroups.com>; marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com>; Tristan Reynard <kateand...@xtra.co.nz>; keith dunkinson <keithdu...@hotmail.com>; greg...@live.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 11:42 pm
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Hi Liam,

 

The split is a big pity.  There's no substitute for that ultimate level of competition.  If NZ and the French don't attend the Columbia competition it will lose some of it's legitimism as a world championship.  UWH is played by mostly poor people funded out of their own pocket, so many might baulk at spending the money on Columbia.

 

Durbin 2008 was the continuation of the UWH Worlds and Columbia was then elected the next host nation.  NZ should get back on board.

 

I understand the argument for CMAS but they did stuff it up in the first place.  Not being much of a spectator sport I'm not sure "olympic license, legitimacy, govt support etc" will ever amount to anything.  We are probably on our own and will be a minority sport, but that's part of the beauty of it!

 

Bushy  

---

From: Liam Watson [mailto:leele...@hotmail.com]

Sent: 18 November 2009 13:52
To: Bush, Greg; 'Patrick E O'Brien'; 'Uncle Terry'; 'Darryl Brambilla'; 'Ken Kirby'; 'GRAHAM HENDERSON'

[Darryl Brambilla]

Hi Marta,

Thanks for your comments and views on this as well as there are many people talking about this now.

From what I know / remember, there are only a few European / Eastern countries which receive funding from CMAS to participate in the Championships. I think these countries are - France, Spain, and possibly Nederlands. Beyond these 3 countries I am not sure who else specifically receives funding although many countries around the world are CMAS members. Maybe I have this wrong however and it is only the top 3 countries that win at Worlds in each division that receive funding.

Either way - I know that MANY countries around the world receive NO FUNDING from CMAS and as a result there really is no added benefit to belonging to them. Anyone who thinks we will be an olympic sport anytime in the near future has been living in a fantasy world, however, I do admit being recognized at an amateur sport in some countries it may have some benefits.

Thanks,
Darryl

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:42 AM, marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi all, 

first of all I am writing this on my own, as uwh lover and above all, mother of 3 players. This is not an formal mail...

 

these federations representing the players,( even in the case players don´t feel represented by them) need the money from their governmentes to provide their teams. And their govermnents won´t give them a cent if they don´t go to cmas champs.

And I supposse a champ with rich players would be cool, but I am afraid it won´t be complete. I haven´t recovered yet from the big expense that Durban meant to me. And the same as me, most of spanish players. I can´t even think of sending any of the 3 to Colombia. Even they are allowed to go....permission is nothing without money. And it is exactly the same for most players that attended Durban. And I supposse that for those who are still studying or don´t have a job. They really need the support of their federation and they won´t have this if it is not a CMAS champ.

I don´t know how it works in your country, but in most countries works this way.

And I don´t think that all the wrong things CMAS did in the past can be fixed in a couple of months. I think it is being very difficult to progress as some of you just  say " CMAS did, CMAS said...." and don´t want to give the new commission a chance.

And that´s the only thing I ask you all: just hang on for a while, not long, just a while. And see. I supposse you know there has been a big good change in CMAS. That´s a big step. and so it will continue.

---

To: g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:54:05 -0500
From: cros...@aol.com
CC: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane.G...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; N6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; pons_...@hotmail.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

---

Date una vuelta por Sietes y conoce el pueblo de los expertos en Windows 7

[Gregory Appling]

Thanks Liam, I agree a cmas-sanctioned event would have been a HUGE unifying move. I think that would have shut up pretty much all the nay-sayers and brought hockey back together. For me, I support Tom but I also support our commitment to going to Colombia as that was what was voted on at the last event in South Africa. Many people at that time voted to support Colombia and their effort to host a worlds event like all previous with all levels of hockey. I hope in the future we can get all of this behind us and have all countries attend. Gregory Appling 147 Springdale Way Emerald Hills, CA 94062 home: 650-260-2093 cell: 415-637-0784 --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Liam Watson <leele...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Uncle Terry]

In the US, hockey receives no government funding.  It is paid for by the players.  A couple of universities may kick in a little bit to their club teams, out of student activities funds, but that is a very small amount, very local, and has nothing to do with international sanctioning.

 

--Terry

So if UWH was under CMAS, does any one know the facts on what money it is likely to bring to what countries?

 

Greg

---

From: marta pons de molina [mailto:pons_...@hotmail.com]
Sent: 18 November 2009 19:42
To: cros...@aol.com; Bush, Greg; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com
Cc: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Hi all, 

first of all I am writing this on my own, as uwh lover and above all, mother of 3 players. This is not an formal mail...

 

these federations representing the players,( even in the case players don´t feel represented by them) need the money from their governmentes to provide their teams. And their govermnents won´t give them a cent if they don´t go to cmas champs.

And I supposse a champ with rich players would be cool, but I am afraid it won´t be complete. I haven´t recovered yet from the big expense that Durban meant to me. And the same as me, most of spanish players. I can´t even think of sending any of the 3 to Colombia. Even they are allowed to go....permission is nothing without money. And it is exactly the same for most players that attended Durban. And I supposse that for those who are still studying or don´t have a job. They really need the support of their federation and they won´t have this if it is not a CMAS champ.

I don´t know how it works in your country, but in most countries works this way.

And I don´t think that all the wrong things CMAS did in the past can be fixed in a couple of months. I think it is being very difficult to progress as some of you just  say " CMAS did, CMAS said...." and don´t want to give the new commission a chance.

And that´s the only thing I ask you all: just hang on for a while, not long, just a while. And see. I supposse you know there has been a big good change in CMAS. That´s a big step. and so it will continue.

---

To: g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:54:05 -0500
From: cros...@aol.com

CC: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane.G...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; N6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; pons_...@hotmail.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

[Carol Rose]

in US zero, zip, nada, nothing. USOA gets absolutely no money from govt or USOC. By law, USOC controls all amateur sport, and USOC only supports medal sports. In the distant past there was a little grant money BUT only for acknowledged new sports - ie fin swimming. I was told not to bother writing grant application for uw hockey as it would not be considered - and that was 10 yrs ago. After Salt Lake City, grant moneys gone too.  Being a member of CMAS get us no status with sponsors either as no one in US ever heard of CMAS. We are member of USOC which gives us the honor/benefit of paying them dues yearly.

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bush, Greg <g.b...@geos.com>
To: marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com>; cros...@aol.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com
Cc: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:59 am
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

So if UWH was under CMAS, does any one know the facts on what money it is likely to bring to what countries?

 

Greg

From: marta pons de molina [mailto:pons_...@hotmail.com]
Sent: 18 November 2009 19:42
To: cros...@aol.com; Bush, Greg; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com

Cc: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Hi all, 

first of all I am writing this on my own, as uwh lover and above all, mother of 3 players. This is not an formal mail...

 

these federations representing the players,( even in the case players don´t feel represented by them) need the money from their governmentes to provide their teams. And their govermnents won´t give them a cent if they don´t go to cmas champs.

And I supposse a champ with rich players would be cool, but I am afraid it won´t be complete. I haven´t recovered yet from the big expense that Durban meant to me. And the same as me, most of spanish players. I can´t even think of sending any of the 3 to Colombia. Even they are allowed to go....permission is nothing without money. And it is exactly the same for most players that attended Durban. And I supposse that for those who are still studying or don´t have a job. They really need the support of their federation and they won´t have this if it is not a CMAS champ.

I don´t know how it works in your country, but in most countries works this way.

And I don´t think that all the wrong things CMAS did in the past can be fixed in a couple of months. I think it is being very difficult to progress as some of you just  say " CMAS did, CMAS said...." and don´t want to give the new commission a chance.

And that´s the only thing I ask you all: just hang on for a while, not long, just a while. And see. I supposse you know there has been a big good change in CMAS. That´s a big step. and so it will continue.

---

To: g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:54:05 -0500
From: cros...@aol.com

CC: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane.G...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; N6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; pons_...@hotmail.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

[Doug Roth]

Not sure of the politics for BOA or how Ken fits in, but the I support because I want statement seems a bit self-centered. What does the majority of BOA members want? What do the players that actually have a shot at competing on the National Squad want? Those are the opinions that should matter.

For NZ, it bothers me that the players want to play and the committee says no. It is very much like the UWH committees of the past and present wanting what is best for hockey then having the Board rule otherwise. 

Sean points out the flaw in supporting a dysfunctional organization or hanging on to hope. How many more times do you have to get wronged before you open your eyes, stand up, and tell your leaders to move on to the org that actually does what the players want?

I think what has been lost here on the moneyside is that some of the newer countries may be getting funding. I doubt only three countries get funding because of the relationship to the mother-org. 

People on both sides, get your heads out of the sand. Guesses and hopeean nothing, look at the facts of what has been done and by whom. Who has control and what ar they doing for the hockey players?

Duck    

Sent directly from my brain 

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:03 AM, Ken Kirby <kenk...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Hi all

Just for information the GB federation (BOA) and the GB teams do not receive any money from anyone.
All underwater hockey in the UK is funded by the players themselves, and they have to pay to be members of the British Octopush Association.
Therefore money is not a reason for us to stay behind CMAS.
I stay behind CMAS because I want to be affiliated to a recognised international governing body.
I would have no hesitation in moving to WAA if I thought CMAS was not working in the interest of underwater hockey but I am hanging on in the hope that we may be reunited by sensible politics instead of arguments between us..

Ken Kirby

marta pons de molina wrote:

Hi all, 

first of all I am writing this on my own, as uwh lover and above all, mother of 3 players. This is not an formal mail...

 

these federations representing the players,( even in the case players don´t feel represented by them) need the money from their governmentes to provide their teams. And their govermnents won´t give them a cent if they don´t go to cmas champs.

And I supposse a champ with rich players would be cool, but I am afraid it won´t be complete. I haven´t recovered yet from the big expense that Durban meant to me. And the same as me, most of spanish players. I can´t even think of sending any of the 3 to Colombia. Even they are allowed to go....permission is nothing without money. And it is exactly the same for most players that attended Durban. And I supposse that for those who are still studying or don´t have a job. They really need the support of their federation and they won´t have this if it is not a CMAS champ.

I don´t know how it works in your country, but in most countries works this way.

And I don´t think that all the wrong things CMAS did in the past can be fixed in a couple of months. I think it is being very difficult to progress as some of you just  say " CMAS did, CMAS said...." and don´t want to give the new commission a chance.

And that´s the only thing I ask you all: just hang on for a while, not long, just a while. And see. I supposse you know there has been a big good change in CMAS. That´s a big step. and so it will continue.

---

To: g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:54:05 -0500
From: cros...@aol.com

CC: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; Ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; Jane.G...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; Lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; N6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; Tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; pons_...@hotmail.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

[Doug Roth]

Loran, I think no one was saying that you are getting CMAS money. They are saying that because of the affiliation with CMAS that you Govt gives you money. So in that light, could you answer this question... would you not get the Govt funding if the French Federation was associated with only WAA?

Sent directly from my brain 

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:13 AM, laurent bernardi <berna...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

Hi all

sorry to jump in there, but I think there is a misunderstanding.
I just would like to clarify something, regarding money supposed to be given by CMAS to French players, as it was wrotten previously. I would be really surprised that money comes from CMAS to the French underwater hockey players (I am one of them).

The money is coming from the government, the sport departement is giving money to the french diving federation (which is affiliated to the CMAS). And then the Federation is giving some money to the underwater hockey players. This is how it works.

To summarize the money is coming from the Tax I am paying each year there to the State (and this only a little part of it, I can swear it!), I am taking nothing to you guys in US or NZ to play UWH! ;o)

Hoping that all this is going to be solved in one way or another, I wish you all a good day.

Loran .





De : "Bush, Greg" <g.b...@geos.com>

À : marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com>; darryl.b...@gmail.com
Cc : cros...@aol.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Envoyé le : Mer 18 Novembre 2009, 16 h 00 min 36 s
Objet : RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Does any know the facts on what belonging to CMAS cost the players?  Hendo mentions the cost of representatives attending.  Was there an annual fee?

 

Greg

---

From: marta pons de molina [mailto:pons_...@hotmail.com]

Sent: 18 November 2009 22:35
To: darryl.b...@gmail.com
Cc: cros...@aol.com; Bush, Greg; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Hi again Darryl, 

Perhaps I wasn´t  too clear. Spanish federation doesn´t receive funds from CMAS. It receives money from an organization CSD ( more or less superior council of sports ?¿) which depends on the government. this organization gives funds to all federations of different sports in spain. If the players don´t belong to this federation or this federation doesn´t belong to either IOC or CMAS or any other official organization, they won´t give a cent.

So it is almost the same. we are trapped.

And if the sport is recognized, the players ( perhaps it is not the same in your country) can apply for financial help or school grants.

If CMAS uwh commission would receive any funds, I can assure they will go the sport. Not to a particular country, I guess it has never been this way, and of course not to any member of the commission.

Please be a little patient. It won´t take long to get news. Í am sure

Thank you all

Marta

---

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:01:06 -0500

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

From: darryl.b...@gmail.com
To: pons_...@hotmail.com
CC: cros...@aol.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

----- Original Message -----

<image001.jpg>

---

¡Nuevo Canal Mujer! Moda, belleza, sexo, dietas, embarazo… más fácil y a tu alcance. Si quieres estar a la última, no puedes perdértelo.

[Carol Rose]

Let me tell you how works: 

it costs US/any federation dues yearly to belong to CMAS. It used to cost US about $900/year or $300/committee - there are 3 of which sport is one; but dues increase several years ago made dues about $2700 or triple as it now costs to join each committee and to join each sport commission - US joins hockey, rugby, fin, skin spear commissions.

Then to participate in any/each WC and/or zone costs about 150 E - peanuts but there is more. Each elite player must have a sports license - 5 E each. 

As USOA is a dues supported organization, members dues pay those fees. 

And what do we get directly or indirectly? We get to vote; we are allowed to participate in hockey, rugby, fin, skin spear international competitions - but wait, as 9th in world in hockey and wayyyyyy down the list in rugby, we'll not be allowed to participate. We have to travel to S America to qualify for skin spear - costs speros as much to qualify as to go to WC plus USOA pays for sport licenses and participation fee.

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bush, Greg <g.b...@geos.com>
To: marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com>; darryl.b...@gmail.com
Cc: cros...@aol.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00 am
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Does any know the facts on what belonging to CMAS cost the players?  Hendo mentions the cost of representatives attending.  Was there an annual fee?

 

Greg

From: marta pons de molina [mailto:pons_...@hotmail.com]
Sent: 18 November 2009 22:35
To: darryl.b...@gmail.com

Cc: cros...@aol.com; Bush, Greg; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Hi again Darryl, 

Perhaps I wasn´t  too clear. Spanish federation doesn´t receive funds from CMAS. It receives money from an organization CSD ( more or less superior council of sports ?¿) which depends on the government. this organization gives funds to all federations of different sports in spain. If the players don´t belong to this federation or this federation doesn´t belong to either IOC or CMAS or any other official organization, they won´t give a cent.

So it is almost the same. we are trapped.

And if the sport is recognized, the players ( perhaps it is not the same in your country) can apply for financial help or school grants.

If CMAS uwh commission would receive any funds, I can assure they will go the sport. Not to a particular country, I guess it has never been this way, and of course not to any member of the commission.

Please be a little patient. It won´t take long to get news. Í am sure

Thank you all

Marta

---

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:01:06 -0500

Subject: Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

From: darryl.b...@gmail.com
To: pons_...@hotmail.com
CC: cros...@aol.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com

[Carol Rose]

Having read all the responses, it appears Marta is not accurate - 'most' countries do not get govt funding based on their CMAS membership with exception of, so far, France, Spain and Italy. I have 'heard' NZ gets some money - yes?no?

US - No

Canada - No

GB - No

So we need to hear from

Netherlands

Australia

Philippines

SA

Colombia

Argentina

Ireland

Scotland

Singapore

Japan - I'll bet they do??

Germany

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: marta pons de molina <pons_...@hotmail.com>
To: cros...@aol.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com
Cc: t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:42 am
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Date una vuelta por Sietes y conoce el pueblo de los expertos en Windows 7 =

[mike_...@comcast.net]

Interesting thread!  Lot's of emotion and some anecdotal data.  Why don't we get the facts out? 

 

The biggest argument so far seems to be that CMAS facilitates government funding.  So I'm requesting that Thomas take the task to provide a table for each country that participated in 2004 NZ, 2006 GB or 2008 SA worlds.  List the CMAS or government funding provided per player.  Note whether the funding was dependent solely on CMAS sanctioning, and the contact person who provided the information.

 

Country   2004   2006   2008   contact                                                                  note

USA         $0         $0         $0      mike grimm, mike_...@comcast.net      no funding from govt or CMAS, independent of CMAS affiliation

 

You can get this verified by Carol if you don't trust me even though I played each of those years.  If none of the CMAS backers is willing to tabulate such a simple and informative list, I will personally assume that the data is not to their liking.  This is an opportunity for CMAS to 'sell' it's strengths to the hockey community.  I will be very interested in seeing the results as my experince in the US may not be the norm.

 

Secondly, lets get the votes on the 2010 Columbia venue from the SA worlds.  Carol, can you provide us this information?

 

Thirdly, it has be purported that the multiple divisions make a long and expensive tournament.  As the co-author of the A/B division rule with Kendall which was accepted into the CMAS rules, I know very well how long a tournament will take to run.  The tournament is basically limited by the rule which says that a team shall play no more than two games a day.  All the tournaments since 1998 have taken about 2 days  longer than the minimum, but this is by choice not necessity.  Take an A division team, 7 games round robin, 3 crossover games, 3 or 4 finals.   That is 13 or 14 games, so it takes about a week.   Most teams do not want to play multiple finals on the same day, so finals are usually scheduled at 1 per day.  So we get about an 8 day tournament.  The problem is not the divisions.  If you want to eliminate crossover games or the entire B division, that is a different matter. 

 

The extra divisions do make very long days for the refs and organizers and necessitates 2 playing areas minimum to pull it off.  The advantage of combining the divisions is that refs, coaches, managers etc are unlikely to go to junior worlds, then travel to master worlds, then travel to elite worlds.  So although the multiple divisions put a strain on the organizers and officials, it is a huge net savings in total effort to combine into one larger event.

 

Which teams have committed to going to Columbia 2010?  Does anyone have the list? Columbia?

 

As I see it the hockey community as represented by WAA has put relatively minor demands on CMAS.  But what are they?  Graham or Carol, can you elaborate?  Here is my guess

1) worlds are to be UW Hockey only and include elite, masters and Juniors

2) UW Hockey representatives to be given most decision making process in terms of governing our sport

3) Limit the CMAS expense and overhead of Worlds.  How much has it really been in previous years?

4) ???

 

Personally I don't care about the politics and this sentiment is reflected by all the other posters as well.  We, the UW Hockey players want to play the best hockey and have a great venue for the entire hockey world to get together at once.  Everyone knows that the 2008 SA worlds was the 'real' World Championship.  Columbia in 2010 should be as well, but it more teams like NZ decide not to participate, then there may not be a real championship anywhere, anytime.  I know Thomas and Graham and I'm convinced they both have the best interest of hockey in mind, despite they're very divergent paths to achieve their goals.  The division is a black eye to UW Hockey.  We need to unite and resolve our differences once and for all.  So, can the powers that be, put the facts out and put their names behind it so the UW Hockey community can evaluate the current state of affairs?

 

Sincerely,

   Mike Grimm

[Sebastián Viviani]

Carol,

     Doing a list like this one, and decide depending the yes/no count is not a smart way to take a decision. I understand that some federations get money or benefits from their government thanks to the CMAS membership. I am ok with that, congratulations to them !  But it also seems some federations don't get anything.

     They will hardly change their mind, because they have their own arguments to support the situation. And it will be very hard to find a unique fair decision or path that make everybody happy.

    Most of the countries seem to have in common that players going to international competitions pay the bill from their own pockets, or from parents-like-Marta pockets if they are young enough. It doesn't matter if you are the World Champion, like France, or if you are not at the top, like us in Argentina.

     I think the question is: if the players pay the trip, why are the federations not supporting them (at least with a handshake and best luck wishes) if they want to travel and play outside the country ? Instead of taking advantage of it, they try to avoid it ? I still don't understand it, although I have seen it before.

            Sebastián

[Andrei Savu]

Hello world,

 

I think that whether or not a list like Carol's is the best thing to base a decision on or not, at least it provides facts for us to evaluate. I have been following this thread and like Mike Grimm said, there are a lot of opinions and speculations being thrown around. I think Mike and Carol have the right idea in compiling some actual numbers and getting some solid facts so that we aren't basing our decisions on opinions and myths. Afterall, sometimes even facts cannot change our minds, but I think most people would prefer knowing the truth.

 

It would be nice to hear some facts and numbers from both sides. My vote is to get a list going.

 

Andrei

VP - Swordfish UWH, Atlanta

2009/11/18 Sebastián Viviani <gui...@gmail.com>

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[Carol Rose]

when people such as Marta make statement  .... 'most countries get' .... without any supporting facts or data, it is time to get those facts. 

Again and in same vein, to say federations 'do not support' ....... which ones? USOA has about 1000 members at $15 each for a total budget of $15,000 - that's not enough to do much for teams. Handshake?? what do you call what I do? I am my fed president, and I have spent every vacation since 1990 with uw hockey. 

Again - generalization without facts. Some federation may not support new sports as they are already supporting other sports - ie Germany and hockey when they already 'do' rugby, orienteering, etc. They believe they cannot afford another sport as some fed do pay team entry fees. But again without data, I don't know who or how many.

Part of misunderstandings come from 99% of players/commenters here/ etc do not attend any CMAS meetings - not that I'd wish that experience on anyone, but no one sees CMAS at work. No one talks to other federation presidents/reps and hears what goes on in their fed. The reps at these meetings are fed administrators not sports persons. I sit in all positions. Meeting this year in Thailand - elective meeting - critical to next 4 years. I was one of two persons in the room (of 200+) who had ever seen an uw hockey puck. Sports reps do not attend these meetings - too expensive to send multiple reps half way across the world.

And the membership appear to be sheep - just seem to believe CMAS administration doing a good job and follow them and their proposals blindly. How can the membership sit in a meeting; hear organization is in at least 150,000 E in debt and is close to bankruptcy and not seem to care. Vote to approve financial statement by large majority.

I know, I know, same ole stuff but it hasn't changed, and I think most in hockey do not/cannot believe it is that bad - I dearly wish it weren't. But what I've seen in 20 years is not pretty.

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastián Viviani <gui...@gmail.com>
To: Carol Rose <cros...@aol.com>
Cc: pons_...@hotmail.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:07 pm
Subject: [refereesguild] Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:784] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Carol,

     Doing a list like this one, and decide depending the yes/no count is not a smart way to take a decision. I understand that some federations get money or benefits from their government thanks to the CMAS membership. I am ok with that, congratulations to them !  But it also seems some federations don't get anything.

     They will hardly change their mind, because they have their own arguments to support the situation. And it will be very hard to find a unique fair decision or path that make everybody happy.

    Most of the countries seem to have in common that players going to international competitions pay the bill from their own pockets, or from parents-like-Marta pockets if they are young enough. It doesn't matter if you are the World Champion, like France, or if you are not at the top, like us in Argentina.

     I think the question is: if the players pay the trip, why are the federations not supporting them (at least with a handshake and best luck wishes) if they want to travel and play outside the country ? Instead of taking advantage of it, they try to avoid it ? I still don't understand it, although I have seen it before.

            Sebastián

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Carol Rose <croseusoa@aol.com> wrote:

Having read all the responses, it appears Marta is not accurate - 'most' countries do not get govt funding based on their CMAS membership with exception of, so far, France, Spain and Italy. I have 'heard' NZ gets some money - yes?no?

US - No

Canada - No

GB - No

So we need to hear from

Netherlands

Australia

Philippines

SA

Colombia

Argentina

Ireland

Scotland

Singapore

Japan - I'll bet they do??

Germany

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

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[Liam Watson]

apologies for the length of this guys, it just grew on me and i tried to trim it but i feel strongly enough to leave it all in.

 

for the record, nz does not get money from the govt...   we get some small funding from lotteries and charities, if we are lucky.

 

BUT that is not the point.  the point is that whether or not countries get funding and support from their governments right now, if we are affiliated with cmas then we actually have a chance to get that support in the future, through that olympic creditation.  that is the case here in nz.  i am sure it is similar elsewhere too...   but it depends on the local government structure.

 

we dont have to be a huge sport to take advantage of these things...   but we only need to get a little more organised for all countries to include funding in their organisations (such as a funding officer portfolio) and there is huge potential there for everyone.  we can apply for funding due to that olympic badge, and be taken seriously.

 

frankly there are enough countries getting support already to justify it as a reasonable pro of the cmas.  but the POTENTIAL it gives all of us is far more important.

 

i dont think we are behaving like sheep.  the fact is, i dont give a shit if the top people in cmas dont know anything about hockey...    most of them will know stuff-all about the other sports either.  who cares?  no-one else knows about us, why should they?  but that wont stop the commission doing what it needs to do.  it didnt stop the commission for 25 years, until graham had enough and refused to "live on his knees", as he put it.

 

frankly, what graham has done is great, it has let cmas see how passionate we are about controlling our own sport.  i would hope they know now they cant fly people over for holidays at our expense when we have competitions, or at least put them in coach.  but the fact is, even if we do have to operate beneath a higher organisation, and nod the heads every now and then, it's worth it, because we get a united uwh community for it.  so graham isnt prepared to work with them anymore...   thats a pity and we all know how much work he did, and under trying circumstances towards the end.  but the fact is, tom is prepared to put the effort in to make it work...    so lets stay out of his way and help him do it!

 

graham has detailed the problems he has had in the past, and i believe him, it was obviously hard work.  but frankly, we just have to bite the bullet and make it work. 

 

my government, my media, my whole society here in nz dont know about or care about my sport....  well wake up, get real, thats the way it works and who gives a shit if the top people in cmas are the same?  we pay small levies to stay under their umbrella, we get the benefits that it provides, we are all together with all the countries.  the sport is too small to split even a little bit, lets look at ourselves and be honest! 

 

some of the views i hear on these threads sound as if we have gone back in a timewarp a couple of years.  things have changed!  sure nz supported the colomboa 2010 concept in durban, but a lots happened since then.  sure, if every single country had followed WAA right back at the start MAYBE things could have worked....    all countries would be bereft of funding, but hey we would still be all together.

 

BUT now we can see exactly what happens when we break away from cmas, because its already happened!  we dont have to guess anymore, and the result, sad to say, is a bullshit mess with some countries simply trapped, as marta says, such that now we have people trying to make cmas work for us again.  thats the reality.   split from cmas = split in hockey, stay with cmas = we have to make it work but we do get what we want...   unity.

 

i'm not too proud to say yeah, if some guy i dont know who doesnt really know my sport is going to pick the locations of some of the comps we go to.....    ok.  fine.   i can handle that, because i've seen the alternative, and it's a bullshit mess which has just flat out not worked out.

 

graham is going to flame the heck out of me for this email i'm sure, but hey.  thats life.

 

glad to have so many people contributing, despite having 53 messages in my hockeynet folder today!

 

cheers

 

 

---

From: Carol Rose [mailto:cros...@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, 19 November 2009 1:28 p.m.
To: refere...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: pons_...@hotmail.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Subject: [wtd] Re: [refereesguild] Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:784] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

[GRAHAM HENDERSON]

Liam,

You are entitled to your opinion so why would I flame you?  There are a couple of things that need to be clarified in your email, firstly I have never said that I would not work with CMAS in fact I have said that I am always willing to work with CMAS, it is them who will not talk to us.  It should also be remembered that they took disciplinary action and had me removed because the commission, not me alone took them on over Jersey so it appears that in CMAS if you stand up for what you believe in you will be dealt with.

 

Darryl summed it up perfectly, there is no need to stroke their egos and once again try and work around their ridiculous rigid rules, all they have to do is sit down with us and discuss it, now isn’t that a novel idea.  If they did that then the harmony could be restored and the divide could end, this is what I hoped the new commission would do because it would fast track things and all parties would instantly see the problems that need to be addressed.  Liam the most fundamental point I disagree with you on is the fact that it does matter if they know nothing about our sport when they make decisions that affect us, in reality the president of each commission should hold a BOD position as they must realise that the sports are as fundamental to them as their diving cards.

 

Cheers

 

.

__,_._,___

[Liam Watson]

Sorry rob I did of course mean the olympic license/connection whatever you
want to call it.... No we are not and probably never will be an olympic
sport but certainly our govt sports agencies treat the "chance" of an
olympic sport as a requirement to take a sport seriously and then open up
avenues for funding.



-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Liscoe [mailto:Rob.L...@solent.ac.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 19 November 2009 10:15 p.m.
To: Liam Watson
Cc: a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; british...@yahoogroups.com;
bur...@arrakis.es; cas.te...@flexibility.nl;
ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; 'Carol Rose';
darryl.b...@eds.com; darryl.b...@gmail.com; e...@sun.ac.za; graham.
he...@bigpond.com; gregory...@msn.com; g.b...@geos.com;
hock...@googlegroups.com; jaimea...@gmail.com;
jane.g...@finance.gov.au; kateand...@xtra.co.nz;
keithdu...@hotmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com;
lisa....@bigpond.com; mie...@hotmail.com; n6...@sky.com; ozhockeynet@auf.
com.au; patrick...@comcast.net; pic...@iinet.net.au; pons_marta@hotmail.
com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sandorduis@yahoo.
co.uk; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; tania....@nike.com; t...@hockeysub.com;
uncle...@usa.net; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com;
w...@auf.com.au
Subject: RE: [wtd] Re: [refereesguild] Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:784] RE:
[wtd] WAA Worlds

<<...BUT that is not the point. the point is that whether or not countries

get funding and support from their governments right now, if we are
affiliated with cmas then we actually have a chance to get that support in
the future, through that olympic creditation. that is the case
here in nz. i am sure it is similar elsewhere too... but it depends on
the local government structure.>>

Do you know something the rest of us don't Liam? It has been my
understanding for many years, and nothing has changed recently, that there
is NO chance - zéro, nil, nada, нула - of getting 'olympic creditation'

through CMAS. The reason is political of course, and has nothing to do with
the number of athletes who compete in our sport in the number of countries
in the number of continents around the world (just one criteria
which UWH fails to meet). Having more countries as members of CMAS will
have no effect on anything 'olympic'. To cut a long story short, the reason
is that the IOC refuses to have anything to do with 'blood sports', CMAS
represents spearfishing, spearfishing is a 'blood sport', therefore any
other sport which CMAS represents is tarred with the same brush and will not
get IOC recognition. Clearly there are a variety of solutions and this is a
whole different political agenda which I'm not particularly interested in.
But at the end of the day if ANY country remains with CMAS and think
'olympic' recognition for UWH is a possibility, then as it stands, think
again. Not even you can hold your breath that long. On this and a number
of other counts, to stay with CMAS and hope for the best is a bit like an
ostrich sticking it's head in the sand, in my opinion.

Everybody abandoning CMAS like rats leaving a sinking ship might add
political weight to WAA, and might even be a good thing, but would bring a
raft of additional problems to the UWH community not least being that we
would be 'out in the cold' with no global voice at all until WAA has
international governmental or IOC recognition. And this isn't going to
happen until CMAS goes belly up, and regardless of finances this will not be
allowed to happen. Rock - UWH - hard place?

As regards <..countries get funding and support from their governments right
now..> this is entirely a domestic and internal problem and for many
countries has little, if anything, to do with CMAS or the IOC. Having your
sport recognised by your own country's governmental executive sports
department is the first step. In the UK this then gives authority for local
government to disburse grants as they see fit and individuals then have to
make their own case to stand a chance of a couple of hundred $$ if they are
really lucky. In the UK central government has a policy of financially
supporting only the ''top 12" sports - these would be the ones who already
get vast incomes from advertising and sponsorship ie football,
rugby, cricket, tennis...... UWH is just outside the top 12 at 164th
position.

Rob





"Liam Watson" <leele...@hotmail.com>
19/11/2009 06:02

To
"'Carol Rose'" <cros...@aol.com>, <refere...@yahoogroups.com> cc
<pons_...@hotmail.com>, <g.b...@geos.com>, <patrick...@comcast.net>,
<uncle...@usa.net>, <darryl.b...@gmail.com>,
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<pic...@iinet.net.au>, <jaimea...@gmail.com>,
<a.vanij...@tiscali.nl>, <cas.te...@flexibility.nl>,
<ciaran....@boimail.com>, <cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au>,
<darryl.b...@eds.com>, <gregory...@msn.com>,
<jane.g...@finance.gov.au>, <mie...@hotmail.com>,
<sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp>, <e...@sun.ac.za>, <lisa....@bigpond.com>,
<rob.l...@solent.ac.uk>, <n6...@sky.com>, <robs...@clear.net.nz>,
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RE: [wtd] Re: [refereesguild] Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:784] RE: [wtd] WAA
Worlds

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[Sebastián Viviani]

Carol,
      I agree that it will be nice to check the info, I don't agree the way you are simplyfing it, to "How many countries get money from the govt by showing their CMAS membership".
        For example, in Argentina the local fed doesn't get any money from government. But it get access to training facilities, like pools, for been member of the local OC. We can also ask for money from the govt, because of the local OC membership, but usually the answer wil be no. CMAS membership helped to get the local OC recognition.
       The funny thing is that once you are inside, the CMAS membership is useless for local paperwork, it only works like a protection to avoid another body to do the same trick. The government only cares about the local OC words. And they also don't ask where are you going to play, usually because they will not give you money or that kind of things. Getting money from the government is more like a lotto ticket, and although I'd once met a guy who had won the lotto, I met many more people who hadn't won it, despite buying daily tickets. I prefer to look for another alternative.
       So in your list, Argentina should be a "no", but in fact there are some benefits, which you may be missing. I guess every country on your list will have a particular situation, probably gray, and it may not be fair to round it into a binary result.
       About "federation don't support", it's a very long story, I don't have time to write it down here, the political history of underwater sports in Argentina had always been a mess, with splits, merges, egos, etc, I was not talking about what you do.
       I also agree what you say about CMAS-way-to-do-things, because I heard similar comments from other people that have been there at GA's and BOD's. But at least they now have a new UWH commission, doing things in a better way than the temporary one. Portugal Euros will not overlap Colombia Worlds, and it seems there won't be lobby-for-not-go-there, like happened at the before Durban. Rumors of Dernier resignation is another sign that maybe some things may change at higher levels.
       I just hope both Colombia and Portugal can be succesfull tournaments, where everyone that wants to go there can go and play, and enjoy hockey without restrictions (except for the money, as it will always be a problem). I think if it happens that way, then maybe we will be able to prove ourselves we learn something two years ago, and work things out for the future.

           Sebastián

PS: see you in Colombia !

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Carol Rose <cros...@aol.com> wrote:

when people such as Marta make statement  .... 'most countries get' .... without any supporting facts or data, it is time to get those facts. 

Again and in same vein, to say federations 'do not support' ....... which ones? USOA has about 1000 members at $15 each for a total budget of $15,000 - that's not enough to do much for teams. Handshake?? what do you call what I do? I am my fed president, and I have spent every vacation since 1990 with uw hockey. 

Again - generalization without facts. Some federation may not support new sports as they are already supporting other sports - ie Germany and hockey when they already 'do' rugby, orienteering, etc. They believe they cannot afford another sport as some fed do pay team entry fees. But again without data, I don't know who or how many.

Part of misunderstandings come from 99% of players/commenters here/ etc do not attend any CMAS meetings - not that I'd wish that experience on anyone, but no one sees CMAS at work. No one talks to other federation presidents/reps and hears what goes on in their fed. The reps at these meetings are fed administrators not sports persons. I sit in all positions. Meeting this year in Thailand - elective meeting - critical to next 4 years. I was one of two persons in the room (of 200+) who had ever seen an uw hockey puck. Sports reps do not attend these meetings - too expensive to send multiple reps half way across the world.

And the membership appear to be sheep - just seem to believe CMAS administration doing a good job and follow them and their proposals blindly. How can the membership sit in a meeting; hear organization is in at least 150,000 E in debt and is close to bankruptcy and not seem to care. Vote to approve financial statement by large majority.

I know, I know, same ole stuff but it hasn't changed, and I think most in hockey do not/cannot believe it is that bad - I dearly wish it weren't. But what I've seen in 20 years is not pretty.

Carol Rose

President USOA

Secretary The WAA

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastián Viviani <gui...@gmail.com>
To: Carol Rose <cros...@aol.com>
Cc: pons_...@hotmail.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; tania....@nike.com; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:07 pm
Subject: [refereesguild] Re: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:784] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

Carol,

     Doing a list like this one, and decide depending the yes/no count is not a smart way to take a decision. I understand that some federations get money or benefits from their government thanks to the CMAS membership. I am ok with that, congratulations to them !  But it also seems some federations don't get anything.

     They will hardly change their mind, because they have their own arguments to support the situation. And it will be very hard to find a unique fair decision or path that make everybody happy.

    Most of the countries seem to have in common that players going to international competitions pay the bill from their own pockets, or from parents-like-Marta pockets if they are young enough. It doesn't matter if you are the World Champion, like France, or if you are not at the top, like us in Argentina.

     I think the question is: if the players pay the trip, why are the federations not supporting them (at least with a handshake and best luck wishes) if they want to travel and play outside the country ? Instead of taking advantage of it, they try to avoid it ? I still don't understand it, although I have seen it before.

            Sebastián

.

__,_._,___

--

[Darryl Brambilla]

Canada is planning on sending both Mens and Womens elite teams to Columbia. I have also heard the same from the USA but this is yet to be confirmed.

We'll be there...and we hope you will be too.

If CMAS has ANY hope for bridging the community back together AND respect for the athletes, coaches, referees and all of the volunteers I would think that they will not try to penalize those countries or federations who chose to send teams to Columbia for the 2010 championships. This would once again further the rift in UWH.

Maybe Tomas can send an official response on behalf of CMAS in this regard letting everyone know that this will be ok?

Thanks,
Darryl Brambilla

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Mcleish, Tania <Tania....@nike.com> wrote:

Hi Rob,
Are you confirming that the GB teams will not be competing in the 2010 WAA tournament in Columbia?
Thanks,
Tania

[Shawn Tucker]

How many divisions is CMAS willing to allow at a world championship?

Sent from my iPhone

[Carol Rose]

US sending men, women and likely open masters to Colombia

Sent from my iPhone

[GRAHAM HENDERSON]

It appears to me that everybody is confusing the funding issue here, federations do not mainly exist on funding from government, they exist on membership fees paid by their members.  Allocation of funds to hockey is in the most part a decision of the federation, very few, if any get direct government funding through their federation to attend world championships, this money comes from the federations general revenue, and only federations with a reasonable size budget can afford this.

 

Here in Australia being a member of the IOC means absolutely nothing, the only recognition that matters here is the recognition of the Australian government that we are the national underwater sports federation, and we have this.  We do not get any direct funding for international competition, but this can change depending which government is in power.  Once we are recognised we then have to maintain that recognition and this has nothing to do with being a member of CMAS it is all based on other criteria dealing with participation rates etc.

 

The French have the largest budget of all the federations because they have most of the diving licenses in that country sown up, I also believe they get funds through a fishing licence system as well.  Each couple of years they order 100,000 C Cards from CMAS to on sell, these are where the funds are generated to fund hockey not through membership to CMAS or the IOC.  The French have an historical connection to CMAS as basically they started it so that is why they are trying to direct it back to its former glory.  Coni do heavily subsidise Italy but once again to the federation FIPAS not directed solely to underwater hockey.

 

Given all of the above it begs the question if Spain sends some team of to some obscure hockey competition not run by CMAS what is the net effect?   The actual concern to them is that CMAS will kick them out so then they do not fit the requirement to get IOC funding because of the CMAS affiliation to the IOC.  So it has no affect on countries that get funding from the government it can only affect federations that get funding from IOC affiliation or a government that requires IOC affiliation. (See clear as mud)

 

So the only thing that matters here is the threat of CMAS and whether they would actually act on that threat, with CMAS being in such financial trouble is it likely they would suspend federations who give them membership money?

 

The last thing that needs to be considered here is what benefit is there in not attending Colombia? Liam has said that NZ will not be attending the euro comp so there will be no comp until 2011 where the best teams meet and then it will only be the top 6 if they elect to go, so if what the players keep saying is true about only wanting to play the best hockey then it stands to reason to go to Colombia. But alas maybe what they are saying is not totally correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Mcleish, Tania [mailto:Tania....@nike.com]
Sent: Thursday, 19 November 2009 4:57 AM
To: Doug Roth; Ken Kirby
Cc: marta pons de molina; cros...@aol.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; graha...@bigpond.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Subject: [ozhockeynet] RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

As far as I know the following countries all receive funding from their underwater federation, who receives that funding from their government/sporting body because of their affiliation with CMAS and CMAS affiliation with the IOC.

France

Spain

Turkey

Belgium

Italy

Netherlands

I am sure there are more countries where this happens but these are the ones that I know of.

 

Duck the UK players had the vote on whether they went to the WAA or CMAS tournament in 2008, perhaps it will be the same for 2010.

 

I think all top players agree that we all want to play against the best teams in the world regardless of what federation is organizing the tournament.

The issue is now when will that tournament be? Do we have to spend a lot of money in the mean while travelling to tournaments where the best countries are not present?

 

So what can we all do to ensure that the next tournament…what ever it is called…where ever it is, has all the best countries/teams competing?

 

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[GRAHAM HENDERSON]

Marta,

 

You are reading more into it than I said, Spain was just an example it could have been China or anybody and the obscure reference just meant a non CMAS comp somewhere in the world run by no one in particular, I apologise if you thought I meant something else.

 

Cheers

GH

 

From: marta pons de molina [mailto:pons_...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 20 November 2009 9:18 AM
To: graha...@bigpond.com; tania....@nike.com; coac...@gmail.com; kenk...@btinternet.com
Cc: cros...@aol.com; g.b...@geos.com; leele...@hotmail.com; patrick...@comcast.net; uncle...@usa.net; darryl.b...@gmail.com; t...@hockeysub.com; pic...@iinet.net.au; jaimea...@gmail.com; a.vanij...@tiscali.nl; cas.te...@flexibility.nl; ciaran....@boimail.com; cmack...@admin.uwa.edu.au; darryl.b...@eds.com; gregory...@msn.com; jane.g...@finance.gov.au; mie...@hotmail.com; sh...@faculty.chiba-u.jp; e...@sun.ac.za; lisa....@bigpond.com; rob.l...@solent.ac.uk; n6...@sky.com; robs...@clear.net.nz; sando...@yahoo.co.uk; bur...@arrakis.es; refere...@yahoogroups.com; british...@yahoogroups.com; w...@auf.com.au; ozhoc...@auf.com.au; uwhc...@yahoogroups.com; uwh...@yahoogroups.com; hock...@googlegroups.com; kateand...@xtra.co.nz; keithdu...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [ozhockeynet] RE: [wtd] Re: [hockeynet:768] RE: [wtd] WAA Worlds

 

Graham, I am not talking about any obscure competiton. I´ve never said that WAA competitions are obscure or whatever.

You perfectly know that I myself went to Durban and Spain took there 2 u19 teams. And we were glad to do it.
CMAs didn´t  have any junior competitons and I thought that was the end of uwh.

But now we are trying to change all this from inside.There will be junior again and Master. The first importan step in cmas came when mr. Dernier was fired.  And the new vice president seem to me a honest person. And he said he is going to help uwh.

If spain goes to Colombia, there won´t be any effect. But I can say "spain" won´t go to colombia. Perhaps a group of the richest players ( not the best) will gather to go as Spain. Nothing bad will happen to them. CMAS, as you know, and all the people who attended the meeting in kranj know, won´t kick anyboy. Thomas said so, and he is a honest man. That´s all. They won´t be the real national team.

I can see there are many different interests in different countries. Some receive help if the are in CMAS, some don´t receive it either they are in cmas or waa. Some players are only recognized if the play cmas champs, other are never recognized or always recognized..


To solve a problem between 2 parts, both parts must want to solve it.

And please, about "obscure competitions"...please, don´t try to make others see that I´ve said things that I haven´t.

Thanks
Marta

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