Ruby On Rail Career in Hong Kong Advice Needed

[judy ngai]

Hi Hong Kong ROR Community,

I am a chinese american. I was born in Hong Kong and brought up in America. I am really interested in moving back to hong kong or head to mainland to work. I know that the tech scene is pretty dead in Hong Kong and probably more lively in Mainland. I was quite surprised that the tech scene is pretty bad in hong kong considering that so many people in Hong Kong have mobile apps and is pretty connected to the internet. I am a pretty good developer. I don't have all the classes/methods memorize for the rails framework but if I am given a design for an application/an idea etc I can build it out. I use Github for version control. I worked with python in the past. I am focusing a lot on D3, a data visualization library for javascript. I know the salary probably can't compare to what you can earn in America. It feels like there is a housing/rent problem last time I visited Hong Kong. Can you live on your Hong Kong's developer salary? I am so sorry to reach out to the community to ask about monetary benefit, obviously I would also look at the idea/team/startup environment that I will potentially work in. Any advise is very much appreciated.

Thank You So Much,

Judy Ngai

[Jonathan Buford]

Hi Judy, 

I don't think that saying the tech scene is pretty dead in HK is at all correct. We have events pretty much every day and there are many companies doing cool stuff. I think it is safe to say the tech scene is nascent and there is room for growth, but that we are starting to hit critical mass. 

Mainland, I think you will find that salaries vs. costs actually are not quite as different than HK at this point. The working style will be quite different, so it depends on what you prefer. 

The more lively group for developers is Codeaholics. Also check out StartupsHK on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter for more that is happening. 

Cheers, 

Jon

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[Steve Holmes]

I'd agree with Jon, it's embryonic, not non-existant. And lots of good signs of growth.

Having said that, the salaries do suck. Unless you work in an investment bank which brings it's own set of issues (one being no ruby)

A lot depends on your lifestyle. If you want to live in your own place in the city then you're pretty screwed. If you can live with your extended family or a partner with income as well then you should be OK. 

To give you a guide recently I've seen a few very good developers being in the range of HK$ 30K+ per month. New grads can be anywhere between 15K and 25K if lucky. But I haven't been keeping a close watch so my info may not be a true representation.

There was a mini-discussion of someone offering 25-35K per month for an "Awesome Analyst/Programmer" and how that's appears low for someone who is awesome with many years experience, while awesome programmers in the US and UK can get a heck of a lot more.

In summary, come to HK because you love it, not for the salary :)

Cheers

Steve

[Paul Gresham]

Tax is only 15% here and depending on your lifestyle, cost of living can be significantly lower with the exception of the actual property cost. I was earning more in the UK than I do here, after 20 months in the UK with tax, VAT etc we came away with nothing, within 12 mo's of getting back to HK we actually had some savings. So you need cost up your lifestyle and expectations. Whoever is coming to HK has to accept their lifestyle will be very different indeed, the question being whether you can accept the things that you miss. In general people here are vibrant, energetic and largely just get on with it, compared to the UK/US where people are simply miserable. That being said in UK/US you can probably survive by aimlessly drifting around under the delusion that the world owes you something, in HK/SG/CN you have to make it happen, you aren't going to be put on a pedestal out here.

[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

If we're talking about money;
as Paul says the tax is low, and that's probably the only good thing.

Compared to central London, Hong Kong rental is about the same.
~15k for a comfortable 1 bed.

But the low tax leaves you an extra 20% to spend or save.

Off the shelf developer salaries are probably 60% that of London, so it is largely undone.

The bigger question, I feel, is about the ability to expand your mind and skills.

It depends on your situation in life, but my biggest frustration is that everything is so small scale.

We learn our craft so we can engineer systems that run fast, scale well, blah blah blah. But most jobs you will find here require none of this.

But this is an advantage of its own. Most startups in Hong Kong are small enough that you can get involved in every part of its business. You don't feel part of a machine, your role is crucial to the company's success.

--

[David Wong]

I think we are still active in HK, I have 2 startup and 1 IT company under our arms are having issues in finding the right experience staff.

David

--

[Robson Hayashida]

From my own experience, I agree with what the others pointed out.

- Rents in Hong Kong are sky high. Yes, they surely are. But again, if you are willing to set the bar lower, there are places where you can get affordable rooms for a reasonable price. Of course they are far from the city, but well, that is the situation here. 

- It all depends on what you are looking for. My main purpose was to improve both my cantonese and mandarin, so I think Hong Kong is the most suitable place for me to stay in the world. I don't think I can have a more suitable environment to improve these 2 languages anywhere else.

- As Steve and Jonathan mentioned, the tech scene is not dead at all. I would even say that if you compare Hong Kong to Shenzhen, I still think HK is a better place for tech startups. Here you can find more organisations that support that. Shenzhen doesn't have that infrastructure. (as long as I know. I might be wrong though).

- It is all about adaptation. When I was in the US, I enjoyed going to a hot dog stand every day. I can't do it here. Why? Because it is really hard to find a hot dog stand, and moreover when I find a restaurant that sells hot dogs, they won't be as cheap as the ones in the US. So, I learned how to enjoy that deep fried food they sell on the streets in Mong Kok. That's what the locals eat. It is their version or their equivalent to hot dogs. 

If you want to have the same life you have in your country, then of course things are not cheap here. But if you are willing to do what the locals do, things become really fun.

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[Steve Holmes]

Here's an online salary check for HK

http://cthr.ctgoodjobs.hk/salarycheck/result.aspx

Cheers

Steve

P.S. You said "I don't have all the classes/methods memorize for the rails framework". Don't try to do that. Even Aaron Patterson (Mr Rails v4) hasn't bothered to do that, just watch his Play by Play on peepcode to see how he codes and you'll see he does lots of searching of the classes and methods.

["Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)"]

On 2013-06-13 10:21, Steve Holmes wrote:
> I'd agree with Jon, it's embryonic, not non-existant. And lots of good
> signs of growth.
>
> Having said that, the salaries do suck. Unless you work in an investment
> bank which brings it's own set of issues (one being no ruby)
>
> A lot depends on your lifestyle. If you want to live in your own place
> in the city then you're pretty screwed. If you can live with your
> extended family or a partner with income as well then you should be OK.

I disagree with that. Even if you are living on Hong Kong Island, you
can get a two-roomer for 8000 HKD/month, a studio apartment for half
that. With 20-30000 HKD/month salary and eating out for 50 HKD/meal,
you're doing pretty well and can still put some into savings. If you are
willing to live in the outskirts, like TKO or Tuen Mun, you can get 500
sqft for 10000 HKD/month, no problem.

--
/c

[Eddie Lau (http://36613.me)]

1)
Job market is good here, everyone is recruiting:
- not enough new programmers from universities.
- startup requires candidates with interest in latest technology
- even for Java, C/C++ and .Net, those main stream banking languages also have high demand
- most of the working programmers not willing to learn new things
- most of the working programmers wants to become manager, but not programmer nor architect.

2)
If you are really into coding, you will become a better coder than the major population in Hong Kong and able to earn 30K to 50K within your first 5 years.
and there are startups willing to give shares to core team members which may potentially make you a millionaire.

if you are a rubyist, I am sure you are willing to learn other tech stack as well.
keep updating yourself, and you will be good to go.

3)
We don't have famous hard core big name programmers here
we have several groups of passionate programmers building up interesting startups.
they meetup regularly and share knowledge to each other.
startup, mobile, web, security, micro controllers, UX, etc.

4)
we don't have many "Next Big Thing" projects going on.
but there are still some "changing the country (not world)" projects running.


Cheers,
Eddie

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[Eddie Lau (http://36613.me)]

oh, I think I should remind you as well
most of the people in this mailing list are quite "successful"

they are active in the community
they are good at what they are doing
they can speak Ruby and many other languages
they are willing to learn and share
they are all able to find job easily. most of them are worrying "building my own product or work for others?"

they are not like the other tech people in Hong Kong

[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

On 14 Jun, 2013 6:02 PM, "Eddie Lau (http://36613.me)" <tato...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> oh, I think I should remind you as well
> most of the people in this mailing list are quite "successful"

You're so sweet Eddie.

[PC Leung]

eddie, u light up my life!

[Steve Holmes]

If you feel that a Ruby dev (assuming a graduate) should be living on $50 meals and a tiny flat then I'm happy to disagree. I don't think they should.

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[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

Tsui Wah's dinner set is $70, including iced milk tea.

That's my jam!

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[judy ngai]

Claes,

Yes I know about Tuen Mun, I have searched through http://hk.centanet.com/home/index.aspx and yahoo.com.hk real estate section. Yes, turns out Tuen Mun is the cheapest, you can get a decent place from 8k to 10k on top of a shopping mall. How do you get 8k per month in hk island? I didn't see any of that in the search engine. I spent a month in Hong Kong in November. I was living in Tsuen Wan's Discovery Park, the rent there is around 12k/month for a 2 room (wicked nice). I have also seen those $5 - 7K places in 'Sam shui po' and 'Mon Kwok' which looks to me to be somewhat in really bad condition..... I know about Hong Kong culture a lot. Locals can't really tell me apart which was great. Do you mean to say that sort of 'affordable' flats/studio in hk island are the ones that are really bad ? :p

[Jonathan Buford]

We are paying 12k for a very nice, but very small place in Sheung Wan. At least we also get the roof access with it. I just got an intern a room in a 600 sq ft. place for 6k next to Olympic MTR station. The whole place would go for 12k, and that is month to month.

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[David Lawton]

Disagree. I can't even buy a pint for 50$

In seriousness though, developers should not be living on 50$ per meal. Period. 

NOONE SHOULD

I realize that HK is pretty cut-throat in the gap between rich and poor, but if you are employing someone expecting them to eat on $50 per day, your part of the problem - not the solution

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[Robson Hayashida]

I consider TSUIWAH to be the most expensive cha-chan-teng i have ever seen in my life in hong kong.
Now we have moved to a non shared office space, but until last month we were at Cocoon and just on the same street there are about 3 cha chan tengs, where you don't have to spend 50 dollars on a lunch set.
I usually spend just about 25-30 dollars on a set and it comes with a drink.
Robson

[PC Leung]

you seems a local. you are one of us.

[David Wong]

You can get a small flat suite in Causeway Bay for 8K.

David

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[ja...@gopublic.com.hk]

I think the general consensus is that living standards (adjusted for your average salary) is comparable with any other global city. I can however guarantee that if you are bilingual, have a strong strategic mind, willing to work hard, and aggressively build your network - you will go far in HK. The concentration of awesome potential clients is remarkable in HK. Of course the start up community is also growing as many have already mentioned.

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From: Robson Hayashida Sent: Monday, 17 June, 2013 9:40 AM To: hk...@googlegroups.com Reply To: hk...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Ruby On Rail Career in Hong Kong Advice Needed

[David Wong]

As I said, I am looking for staff, anybody or who have friends, fresh grads, be it an experience Ruby or .Net programmers, do contact me here to setup an online/offline interview.

We are an NFC related service company looking for junior, Senior Developers.

Cheers,

David Wong

9189-3848 or email to davidw...@gmail.com

[Robson Hayashida]

PC,

Hong Kong gave me the all the opportunities that I couldn't find in Brazil neither in Japan.

I think at least every foreigner should learn Cantonese and the habits, culture of the locals.

It makes life much easier and much more fun!

Rob

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:55 AM, PC Leung <pc.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[David Wong]

Robson,

In HK, we do have other foreign cultures too, take sports for an example, I am playing Baseball in HK, one of the 90 adult teams (Men and Women) in open leagues, I heard there are ice hockey leagues, if you look hard enough, besides local you would also find one of your favorite International interest here in HK, actually I return back from Canada over 10 years ago

David

[Pedro Pimentel]

you can find cheaper flats on Hong Kong Island too. The thing is that you won't find them on internet, you have to go to the hole-in-the-wall real estate agencies scattered around the neighbourhoods. During my research, with the help of a local friend, I visited a few flats in Wanchai for less than 8k/month, some of them even furnished!

For drinking, you actually only spend money on that on the weekends, during the week there are several meetups where u can just drop a business card, get some free booze and network with people. There's also 10$ vodka nights in some bars and if that's still expensive I know at least 3 bars with FREE vodka without cover charge!

Food is a whole discussion apart but based on my personal experience: I always eat out (cook at home once or twice a month) and I rarely spend more than 3-4k a month on food.

cheers,

Pedro Pimentel

[Robson Hayashida]

David,

I am not saying that we have to avoid other cultures. I don't play baseball but I do play football  and capoeira here. I also go to Internations, MnC and other events for expats.

I am just saying that if you go on the streets, you find all these signs and billboards all written in Chinese. (Some of them are in English but only a few, unless you are in Soho, Discovery Bay, etc...)

So, when you go out and see all the signs in Chinese and also on the MTR, most of the ads are written in Chinese. The only ads that are bilingual are the ones by the HK Government or the ones by the MTR itself.

Also, when you take a bus, train, etc, most of the people around you will be speaking Cantonese (and recently Mandarin), so I think it is good if we can understand Chinese.

Another problem is, whenever you need to fix something, let's say that you got a problem with your faucet, or you lost the apartment key and you need the key maker to come to fix it, or you are in the NT and you need to take a taxi, or you want to ask the dry clean lady if you can pick your laundry when you come back from your holiday, for all these things it is much easier if you speak Cantonese.

If you don't, then you are limited to the English version of Hong Kong, which means that you will end up paying $$$$$ for things that you could actually get for a much cheaper price.

Moreover, most of my friends (especially Brazilians) say that it is difficult to make friends with the locals. But I think it is not true. First, those Brazilians live in Discovery Bay, which is a place full of foreigners. Second, they never try to learn Cantonese. Of course for them it is difficult to make friends with the locals due to the actions they take.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:28 AM, David Wong <djbigb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

I think this conversation has probably gone a bit too far.

As a summary;

salaries are fairly low by western standards, fairly high by Asian standards

rent is fairly normal for international cities (new York, London, Singapore)
very expensive by Asian standards

there are cheaper places to live, but it depends on your circumstances. if you have kids it's much harder.

there is work, but there are few big web successes. maybe you should build your own.

If you want to work at a twitter, stripe, or github, then youre better off in San Fran.

Tsui Wah is a luxury cha caan teng, which charges double the market rate for their fried rice. they claim this is justified by their consistent quality and the bling decor.

[David Beatty]

Tax = Awesome!   15% max supposedly, but with deductions, rarely more than 10%.

Rent = Killer.   Sure, agree if you're single or prepared to compromise, you can find cheap accom., but disagree with Matt, compared to other major international cities, rent here sucks.   http://startuphongkong.com/2013/01/11/hong-kong-housing-vs-the-world-a-startup-killer/

Salaries = Depends.    Startup salaries = HK10k -> 50k / mth.  (Occasionally more)     Banking/Finance (IT) salaries in top tier firms are international rates - up to HK$150k / mth + bonus (although jobs at the upper end of that scale are now pretty rare)

Kids = Dont!  (Unless you're in finance)   English language pre-schools and primary schools here are 8k+/mth at the low end (ESF), plus you'll be looking for a bigger flat.  Singapore a better option if you want free english language education  (and a significantly larger flat for the same $$)

Startup scene = Lively, but it's not SV.   Startups based here has grown rapidly in the past couple of years, but investment in early stage tech companies is still minuscule.   

Good luck, if you do come let us know!

[judy ngai]

A couple of days ago, I posted this because I want to send out a general inquiry to learn more about the community in hk, I was so shocked the next day I got a couple of job inquiries/tons of replies for my post and its still ongoing. I got a friend who got hired as a ROR developer for a team who is attending the accelerator program in hk right now. Yeah maybe I should build a web app on my own for a couple of months then apply to accelerators and skip the working thing (as suggested by someone) . I think I need some time to digest all of the replies. I just notice that most replies are from expats and only David Wong/Eddie are local people? I think its doable if you are young and single and willing to live in a small place, and eat out cheaply or bargain at the farmers market. I never considered the family aspect. It is probably not a good thing to have a family. I won't be buying a ticket and heading over tomorrow so I got some time to think things over. I live in the suburbs south of Boston, most startups are in cambridge/boston, if I get a job, the commute its an hour. The rent in Cambridge right next to MIT/Harvard is $800 - $900 for a room..... so far I live at home which is free .... I am just a little confused right now. I have two interviews today lets see if I get a job or not. 

Thanks !

[Eddie Lau (http://36613.me)]

Hi Judy,

On 18 Jun, 2013, at 1:06 AM, judy ngai <judy.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

A couple of days ago, I posted this because I want to send out a general inquiry to learn more about the community in hk, I was so shocked the next day I got a couple of job inquiries/tons of replies for my post and its still ongoing. I got a friend who got hired as a ROR developer for a team who is attending the accelerator program in hk right now. Yeah maybe I should build a web app on my own for a couple of months then apply to accelerators and skip the working thing (as suggested by someone) .

yeah, equip yourself the basics and then start  working on a real project immediately.

I think I need some time to digest all of the replies. I just notice that most replies are from expats and only David Wong/Eddie are local people? I think its doable if you are young and single and willing to live in a small place, and eat out cheaply or bargain at the farmers market. I never considered the family aspect. It is probably not a good thing to have a family.

Yes local born and grow up here.

I am married and will have a kid very soon.

Code every day and night still fine with me: day time job, freelances, coaching.

Regular sunday afternoon coding for fun sessions with my friends in a coffee shop still on-going

being a coder is awesome.

being a human / citizen / father is also important to me

it is the interest that drives me to be productive while having life balance (and also lucky that I found good bosses, e.g. Thought Sauce, Hooko, etc.)

I won't be buying a ticket and heading over tomorrow so I got some time to think things over. I live in the suburbs south of Boston, most startups are in cambridge/boston, if I get a job, the commute its an hour. The rent in Cambridge right next to MIT/Harvard is $800 - $900 for a room..... so far I live at home which is free .... I am just a little confused right now. I have two interviews today lets see if I get a job or not. 

perhaps work for startups in the area you are familiar with for a while

and then later you can move over to other countries and explore ?

I, as a local, also prefer moving around the world and code.

Good Luck with your interviews !!

Hope you enjoy Ruby On Rails

Cheers,

Eddie

Thanks !

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:08:44 PM UTC-4, judy ngai wrote:

Hi Hong Kong ROR Community,

I am a chinese american. I was born in Hong Kong and brought up in America. I am really interested in moving back to hong kong or head to mainland to work. I know that the tech scene is pretty dead in Hong Kong and probably more lively in Mainland. I was quite surprised that the tech scene is pretty bad in hong kong considering that so many people in Hong Kong have mobile apps and is pretty connected to the internet. I am a pretty good developer. I don't have all the classes/methods memorize for the rails framework but if I am given a design for an application/an idea etc I can build it out. I use Github for version control. I worked with python in the past. I am focusing a lot on D3, a data visualization library for javascript. I know the salary probably can't compare to what you can earn in America. It feels like there is a housing/rent problem last time I visited Hong Kong. Can you live on your Hong Kong's developer salary? I am so sorry to reach out to the community to ask about monetary benefit, obviously I would also look at the idea/team/startup environment that I will potentially work in. Any advise is very much appreciated.

Thank You So Much,

Judy Ngai

[David Lawton]

As much as people care to believe. Tax does go higher than 15%, but not for many

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[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

Apologies if my sums are incorrect

but I think...

If you are single;

tax on a 30k salary is 29k ~8%

tax on a 60k salary is 90k ~12.5%

tax on a 100k salary is 171k ~14.3%

tax on a 150k salary is 275k ~15.2%

If you are married, and your partner doesn't earn anything,

then you save about 20k tax per year.

And more if you have kids.

So plenty of HK developers probably pay no tax.