B&W 801 Version?
K Lam
I am going to buy an used 801. What should I look at before making the
order?
Thanks.
TK Chan
K Lam wrote:
The Matrix 801 basically has 3 versions, the original 801, then 801 Series 2
and 801 Series 3.
Series 2 differs from Series 1 by incorporation of bi-wire configuration, and
improved tweeter unit. Series 1's woofer cabin is filled substantially by
foam plastic material whereas Series 2's woofer cabin is basically hollow.
Latest production of Series 2 has Series 3 tweeter which is said to have
better clarity.
Series 2 differs from Series 3 by incorporation of a discrete bi-wire
configuration and improvement on positioning of the coils and capacitors.
Series 3's mid/tweeter unit cannot be detached from the woofer cabin while the
one in Series 2 can.
Which sounds better? Well, I think they all sound great. I've owned a pair
of Series 2 which I modified it to give better mid and tweeter performance.
I've only listened a few times of Series 3 and it sounds as good, if not
better as my modified series 2.
Hope this helps.
TK
TK Chan
TK Chan
***************************
Lam Kuen wrote:
> Dear TK,
>
> Thanks for your valuable info.
> Do you have any idea about the price of a 2nd hand 801 series 2 speaker?
2nd hand 801 S2 should be between $18K to $13K but it really depends on
condition.
> Could you share your experience on the modification of the speaker?
> Thanks a lot.
801S2 came with a protection circuit breaker for DC. This can be removed for
a
better signal flow. I replaced all the caps for the mid and high cross-over
by
Solen caps to improve the clarity.
You can search the web to see if you can find some very old stuff I wrote on
this topic.
Hope this helps.
TK
TK Chan
TK Chan
*************************
Lam Kuen wrote:
> Dear TK,
>
> The 801 series 2 I am interested does not come with the speaker stand.
> Any suggestion on the speaker stand?
I don't recommend using dedicated stands for the 801 unless your listening
position is 12 to 15 ft away from the speakers.
The 801 is constructed and designed to sound without those stands which raise
the speakers to at least 8" to 12" from the ground. This will put the listening
axis of the tweeter well above your ear if you're sitting low or not far
enough. Most of the time, your ears will be listening to the sound of the
woofer.
You can of course use some wood blocks or spikes to raise the cabin a bit and
that should be OK.
TK
R.Mui
Then there was the 801F with the wooded head replaced by "Fibrecrete"
(fiber glass + concrete) thus the name 801F. The tweeter was a soft
dome device and the woofer section was a sealed box design (no port
below woofer)
Then in the series 2 the tweeter was replaced by an aluminum dome and
the Matrix structure was added to the woofer cabinet. And like you
mentioned bi-wiring is incorporated into the crossover design. A
protection circuitry The small red LED below the woofer and above the
port would light up when the protection circuitry is triggered to
protect the tweeter as the earlier designs were known to have blown
tweeters, especially when used in highly demanding studio environment.
Also, the Series 3 has had the protection circuitry deleted from the
crossover network in order to improve sonics. And as a result the
tweeter is ferro-fluid cooled to handle the extra dynamics possible in
lieu of the protection circuit.
Richard
TK Chan 撰寫於文章 <391C2D5A...@netvigator.com>...
R.Mui
>Here is another of my response.
>
>TK Chan
>
>*************************
>
>Lam Kuen wrote:
>
>> Dear TK,
>>
>> The 801 series 2 I am interested does not come with the speaker
stand.
>> Any suggestion on the speaker stand?
>
>I don't recommend using dedicated stands for the 801 unless your
listening
>position is 12 to 15 ft away from the speakers.
And unless the stands are really needed to tame the booming bass (mind
you the 801S3 that I have does not boom at all, although your case can
be different depending on placement of the speakers and the listening
room's dimension and associated gears) they are simply not meant to be.
As in the original owner's manual they also mention about dedicated
stands but the primary purpose is for studio use where the speakers has
to be lifted to clear the studio console.
My experience is that in a domestic environment the original spikes
works best (compared to the SoundAnchors and the original castors and
Ensemble topcones that happen to fit the spike mounting holes as
well)...but again, what works for me might/might not work for you.
>The 801 is constructed and designed to sound without those stands which
raise
>the speakers to at least 8" to 12" from the ground. This will put the
listening
>axis of the tweeter well above your ear if you're sitting low or not
far
>enough. Most of the time, your ears will be listening to the sound of
the
>woofer.
I find this very true...
My 2 cents,
Richard
R.Mui
K Lam 撰寫於文章 <8fh6gq$3k...@imsp212.netvigator.com>...
R.Mui
TK Chan
Nice response. You still owe me a visit :- ).
TK Chan
R.Mui
Been so busy I don't even have time to listen to my own 801....let alone
your very nice N802!
Richard
TK Chan 撰寫於文章 <391CD6CC...@netvigator.com>...
johnan...@my-deja.com
advise:
(1) the Nautilus and Matrix, which is more preferrable and what are
their differences?
(2) can I use 801 or 802 in a small area, say 10 feet x 10 feet?
Many thanks
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
R.Mui
johnan...@my-deja.com 撰寫於文章 <8fjp50$q6n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I am also considering buying a pair of used B&W as well. Could you
>advise:
>
>(1) the Nautilus and Matrix, which is more preferrable and what are
>their differences?
Two totally different animals...from HF extension, bass control to
midrange clarity and body the Nautilus 800 series is a total departure
from the Matrix series for the better. The Matrix series do sound a
little "too" warm if compared side by side, the new Nautilus simply
gives you more "you are there". One thing though, despite the higher
overall sensitivity figures in the Nautilus 800 range they are actually
more power hungry than the Matrix series. Don't get me wrong, they
sound perfectly OK with average power BUT will require big muscle if you
want them to sound anything more than decent and shine. Whereas with
the previous Matrix series they will sound very well when fed enough,
but will also sound "nice" even when they are under-powered. Not so in
the Nautilus series....
The Nautilus 800 series, all in all, are simply better speakers. But
given the comparatively low used prices of the Matrix speakers they
present one of the better, if not the best, bargains available.
I currently own the M801S3, M804 and the HTM. Aside from the HTM that I
bought new the others were all used (but like new) speakers. Even the
previous M803 that I sold was bought used but when I traded them in for
the M801 the speakers were still 80% new.
>(2) can I use 801 or 802 in a small area, say 10 feet x 10 feet?
Is 10' x 10' the real dimension or just roughly? I am asking because
when you have a room that has any one of the dimensions that happens to
be a multiple of another (say WxHxD of 10'x10'x7 or 10'x20'x7' as
example) you have a very strong room mode whereas a particular frequency
will be overly emphasised REGARDLESS of what speakers you use. Simple
acoustics certainty and there are all sorts of information on this over
the internet. I don't remember the formula for the calculation on the
top of my head but you can find them very easily.
But then again, room acoustics aside I think neither the 801 nor 802
would be a good choice of speakers in such a small room. Probably the
804 or even the 805 will perform much better in such conditions...
Just my 2 cents...
Richard
TK Chan
currently using a pair of N802 and a N-HTM2 centre speaker. I've also
owned M802 and M801 for various period of time. So I have a bit more
experience with the N and M.
I have been using SS amp for driving these speakers. I fully agree that N
and M are totally different species, from head to toe, though they share
similar model designation. They are meant and designed to sound
differently. One thing however is in common, there has always been the
concept that Ms are power suckers, and so are the Ns. Strangely that in my
encounter with speakers of other brands and makes, I seldom come across
speakers aren't known to be power suckers. Take the ATC, Avalon for
example. Some of them are even more sucking.
When Richard started his M801 ordeal, he was quite concerned with whether
the tube amps can drive it adequately. This turns out to be more of
speculation than truly represented. The next thing about M801 & 2 is the
stands, which I completely disapproved. As Richard has also experienced, I
was right about it.
Now, concerning the N801 and N802, I need to point out the N801 has 15"
woofer, the N802 has 2 8" woofers. The N801 should therefore require more
power drive for its 15" woofer whereas the N802 doesn't seem to require any
more power drive than I used to drive the M801. From specification, the Ns
are a bit more sensitive than the Ms so in theory they are easier to drive.
As regards what power is sufficient, then it is a matter of choice and
judgement. I am sure that using a 500W power to drive any speakers will
produce a different impact than a 250W or 100W amp. Besides, the N series
are pretty new to the market and currently all 1st hand owners. After a few
years when 2nd hand Ns are available, they surely have been seasoned and
mellowed to less power sucking as the Ms have experienced.
Lastly, to answer John's 2nd question, 10' x 10' is definitely not for the
N801. The M801 and N802 will need a lot of tweaking to get them sound all
right but lesser than their potential. A good match would be the N803 or
N804s. Give them a try. My room for the N802 is 13" x 20".
TK Chan
R.Mui
Of course you have more experience with the Nautilus series, you do own
them while I don't ma! ^_^
But since I did own the M803 and now the M801, I have a bit more to say
on the "one big woofer vs two small woofers" issue.
Since I use only tube amps my experience maybe quite different from
yours, but for all it's worth here goes nothing...when driven by the
same tube amp (DIY 300B push-pull) the M801 with it's 12" woofer the
bass was miles ahead of the M803 with the 2 x 6 1/2" woofers. The
low-end extension, quantity and authority of the bass was no match at
all....and this is with the same amplifier and source.
Like yourself I always thought that the bigger single woofer would
require more power than the 2 small woofer approach. Well, in my case
it seemed to be the opposite. The 2 small woofers seemed to be more
"demanding" if real bass is to be heard and "felt"...whereas with the
M801 I have no problem shaking the room, even with that "smallish" tube
amp of mine.
Richard
TK Chan 撰寫於文章 <391F887A...@netvigator.com>...
TK Chan
"R.Mui" wrote:
> Hi TK,
>
> Of course you have more experience with the Nautilus series, you do own
> them while I don't ma! ^_^
>
> But since I did own the M803 and now the M801, I have a bit more to say
> on the "one big woofer vs two small woofers" issue.
>
> Since I use only tube amps my experience maybe quite different from
> yours, but for all it's worth here goes nothing...when driven by the
> same tube amp (DIY 300B push-pull) the M801 with it's 12" woofer the
> bass was miles ahead of the M803 with the 2 x 6 1/2" woofers. The
> low-end extension, quantity and authority of the bass was no match at
> all....and this is with the same amplifier and source.
>
> Like yourself I always thought that the bigger single woofer would
> require more power than the 2 small woofer approach. Well, in my case
> it seemed to be the opposite. The 2 small woofers seemed to be more
> "demanding" if real bass is to be heard and "felt"...whereas with the
> M801 I have no problem shaking the room, even with that "smallish" tube
> amp of mine.
That I agree entirely, a 12" woofer is a 12" woofer, neither can be matched
in bass volume and extension by 2 nos. of 8" woofers. That is a matter of
physics. A very simple example to demonstrate is to beat a 12" drum vs 2 nos
of 8" drums. The sound from the 12" drum should be deeper and more hollow
whereas the combined sound from the 2 nos. of 8" drums may sound as loud but
never will have the same deep and hollowness as the 12" drum.
What I am talking about is the power drive for actually driving the Matrix
and the Nautilus. The Nautilus as I have experienced with my pair, isn't
that much of power sucking as has been always misconceived like in case with
the Matrix. Indeed it seems no speakers are not power sucking. The
greediness of the N802 could even be less than the M802. However, in
comparison between the N801 and M801, the N is understandably require more
power to drive the 15" woofer as compared with the 12" of the M.
I would certainly like to have a single 12" woofer but unfortunately the
N801 has gone beyond to 15" which, apart from power drive consideration, has
constraint on its placement in my Home Theatre. This is why I have to
decide on the N802. If B&W ever come up with a N80x with 12" woofer I'll
surely get it.
TK
R.Mui
I have always wondered about this since the introduction of the N
series. Could it be that because of the lowered distortion and
coloration of the N series that "conceived loudness" is lower than the M
series, thereby leading us to think that the N series require more power
to drive well?
Or simply because most of the M series speakers available nowadays have
seem a lot of action already and are fully burned-in...while most of the
N series are still too green and as such would require more powerful
amps to "pump" them into action? I think this is more likely the
situation than the former, no?
And you wrote, "I would certainly like to have a single 12" woofer but
unfortunately the N801 has gone beyond to 15" which, apart from power
drive consideration, has constraint on its placement in my Home Theatre.
This is why I have to decide on the N802. If B&W ever come up with a
N80x with 12" woofer I'll surely get it." You listening room shouldn't
have any problem in handling the N801 placement-wise, even with it's 15"
woofers. Quite honestly your room is already something that others
"dream" about...and yet you are complaining! And I don't think your
power amps would have any problem handling the N801 at all.
Richard
TK Chan 撰寫於文章 <39217177...@netvigator.com>...
>
>
>"R.Mui" wrote:
>
>> Hi TK,
>>
>> Of course you have more experience with the Nautilus series, you do
own
>> them while I don't ma! ^_^
>>
>> But since I did own the M803 and now the M801, I have a bit more to
say
>> on the "one big woofer vs two small woofers" issue.
>>
>> Since I use only tube amps my experience maybe quite different from
>> yours, but for all it's worth here goes nothing...when driven by the
>> same tube amp (DIY 300B push-pull) the M801 with it's 12" woofer the
>> bass was miles ahead of the M803 with the 2 x 6 1/2" woofers. The
>> low-end extension, quantity and authority of the bass was no match at
>> all....and this is with the same amplifier and source.
>>
>> Like yourself I always thought that the bigger single woofer would
>> require more power than the 2 small woofer approach. Well, in my
case
>> it seemed to be the opposite. The 2 small woofers seemed to be more
>> "demanding" if real bass is to be heard and "felt"...whereas with the
>> M801 I have no problem shaking the room, even with that "smallish"
tube
>> amp of mine.
>
TK Chan
> I have always wondered about this since the introduction of the N
> series. Could it be that because of the lowered distortion and
> coloration of the N series that "conceived loudness" is lower than the M
> series, thereby leading us to think that the N series require more power
> to drive well?
It is difficult to compare like with like in the N and M scenario because
they are so few in common owed to so much different in design and
construction.
Having listened to the N802 for nearly a year now, I found that its bass
response is pretty sensitive to changes in the system link. While I was not
happy with a shallow bass but the moment when I plugged a Siltech power cord
to the CD transport, I captured what I've long for. Then when I changed for
a Cadas interconnect, another kind of bass response was noticed. There was
also one time when I changed the position of the spikes underneath the DAC,
bass response seemed to change from heavy to light or vice versa. Bryan
Cheng can tell how much he enjoyed listening in my place to Mahler's
Symphony No. 3, 3rd movement, the few hit of the bass drum at the beginning
of the movement. But intermittently this very deep bass would come and
gone during different listening sessions. In such circumstances, it is
difficult for me to attribute which is responsible for what, and how much
can I get out of the 2 nos. of 8" woofers of the N802, lest to say whether
the N802 would need more power to drive or not.
Since I only have the M802 for a while, I couldn't remember much of the
M802's performance but definitely the N802 is miles ahead. The M801 S2 I
had before outperformed the N802 in deep bass response for sure but then the
N802 seemed to balance with more lively bass that matches my memory of live
concert performance. You may say the M801 gives more in hifi terms but the
N802 more in live resemblance terms. I've listened limitedly to a demo
N801unit so I don't think I hear much to give any solid comments. It
surely has potential to give excellent sound.
> Or simply because most of the M series speakers available nowadays have
> seem a lot of action already and are fully burned-in...while most of the
> N series are still too green and as such would require more powerful
> amps to "pump" them into action? I think this is more likely the
> situation than the former, no?
I would agree from a general point of view that we are hearing most of the
'green' sound of the N while that of the M is more seasoned. Your comment
of the consequential power requirement is a yes and no, depending on whether
you like the N to sound in similar loudness as the M or allowing the N to
stay in its own sonic identity.
> And you wrote, "I would certainly like to have a single 12" woofer but
> unfortunately the N801 has gone beyond to 15" which, apart from power
> drive consideration, has constraint on its placement in my Home Theatre.
> This is why I have to decide on the N802. If B&W ever come up with a
> N80x with 12" woofer I'll surely get it." You listening room shouldn't
> have any problem in handling the N801 placement-wise, even with it's 15"
> woofers. Quite honestly your room is already something that others
> "dream" about...and yet you are complaining! And I don't think your
> power amps would have any problem handling the N801 at all.
Thanks for your compliment on the size of my listening room. Right now, the
N802 has already placed a restriction on the size of the screen used in my
HT. The N801 is definitely a no go to my future plan to upgrade to a larger
screen. Besides, from my point of view, the N801 with its 15" woofer needs
a much larger breathing space that my room can't afford.
Regards,
TK Chan
R.Mui
TK Chan 撰寫於文章 <3922320E...@netvigator.com>...
This has always been true in the B&W 800 series speakers, be it the new
N or the old M series. But I'd bet the N series is even more revealling
to changes up-chain (although I do feel that the so called "revealling
character" is limited to the 801/802 in both the N amd M series...less
so for the 803/4/5). In my latest experience with interconnects, the
change over from KCAG to KS-1010 (all copper conductors) and KS-1020
(copper/silver conductors) between the phonostage to amp was immediately
apparent. And more so after switching the speaker cable from audioquest
Crystal to Kimber KS-3033...which features similar construction of the
famous Kimber Black Pearl but with copper conductors.
But I am not experiencing any "instability" in the sound...you ever
check your power supply main with a voltmeter when you experience
differences in sound? 'Cos power supply fluctuations can be quite awful
in some areas (remember Lee's case in Shatin when it was horse racing
night and the power supply was only 210V?) Lowest I ever registered in
my apartment was 214V...
>Since I only have the M802 for a while, I couldn't remember much of the
>M802's performance but definitely the N802 is miles ahead. The M801 S2
I
>had before outperformed the N802 in deep bass response for sure but
then the
>N802 seemed to balance with more lively bass that matches my memory of
live
>concert performance. You may say the M801 gives more in hifi terms but
the
>N802 more in live resemblance terms. I've listened limitedly to a demo
>N801unit so I don't think I hear much to give any solid comments. It
>surely has potential to give excellent sound.
Like I said in previous post, I think the N series simply give a more
"there you are" sort of experience! While with the M801 I just cannot
stop feeling that I am listening to a recording.
I don't really think breathing apace is a problem for you at all, not
with your layout since there is a wide enough pass through from the
listening room to the dinning room. But if screen size is concerned,
then it's true that the N802's smaller footprint will give more
flexibility in placement.
Rgds,
Richard
Bryan Cheng
TK quoted a perfect example that in the 3rd movement of Mahler's
Symphony No.2, (Otto Klemperer, EMI) there was a few strokes of bass
drum in the first two minutes. TK's N802 can easily reveal the
magnitude of bass due to the changes, be it a powercord or a
interconnect cable, either in the CD transport or the dac.
I concur with TK that the N802 should be enough for his existing HT,
you can add more bass easily but having too much will be an invited
headache.
Bryan
TK Chan
doctorjohn wrote:
> Seems like it is time to visit you again!!!!!
>
> TK Chan wrote:
>
> > ... can tell how much he enjoyed listening in my place to Mahler's
> > Symphony No. 3, 3rd movement
Hello Dr. John,
I am sure the HT vision will be more impressive than you can imagine,
coupled with the theatre sound from a all B&W speakers system. May be
listening to the N802 solo will still be lesser than your expectation. Be
advised that this system - ML 380S+ML360S+ML37+ML335, is right now going
through a time of adaptation with the new power cables and
interconnects. But indeed, why not have some fun with it.
Drop me a line when you can make yourself available, and invitation is
extended to Richard too.
Regards,
TK Chan