Matisse Atom
Dennis
docto...@my-dejanews.com
Where are you, Tim? You are least 12 hours late on this topic!
BTW, I believe it is very difficult to judge a preamp's sound in the shop,
more so than amps. I have heard it many times in Carry On and still am not
sure what is it's characteristics.
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Chung
tyy...@hkstar.com
so god damn difficult to read msg and also on a 6-8 hours lag. Can anyone just
build a HKRAV only newserver so I do not have to go thru' the stupid hkstar
thing again. Apart from dejanews, is there any free newserver available?
I have talked about my Atom many times but perhaps not at much here on HKRAV.
For those who don't know, I bought my Matisse Atom to replace my ARC LS7 for
one primary reason : I need a pre-amp that is sensitive to tube change, which
the LS7 clearly is not. And most of you know that I am a tube collector, I got
close to 400 MOS tubes that I want to plug in some "metal" to
evaluate/appreciate my collection.
And the Atom is maybe the ideal amp for me as :
1. It only use 2 tubes and does not need to be matched pair like the Fantasy
Line etc. Vintage tubes are rare and matched pair vinatge pair are almost
non- exist. 2. It is very sentsitive to tube change, particularly the 12AX7,
as some of you like Allen and TK have witnessed with me.
As for the sound, I find the Atom is more musical compare to the LS7 even when
stock tubes are used. And it is, IMO, more suitabale to be used with SS power
amp. But the dynamics is more limited than the LS7.
At around HK$10k, I think both the LS7 and the Atom are very good choices. As
their characters are so very different from each other, it should be easy for
anyone to choose what suit their own taste.
For those who got the Atom, my advice is to keep the Mullard M8162 gold pins
that come with the amp but get a TFK 803S if you can afford it. The
improvement is huge.
John, Lee HC, Nic and I have also recently auditioned the Sound Explorer
"Atom- compatible" which sell for under HK$3k. As the amp we heard got only
some of the worst 12AT7 and 12AX7 from Russia and East Europe, I would not
form a conclusion of how good this amp is. But I do believe it is inferior to
the Atom even when the same tube is used. It should be, given the price,
right?
Any comment from John, Lee HC and Nic?
Tim
In article <6pr6dr$p1f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
N C Ong
>
>
> John, Lee HC, Nic and I have also recently auditioned the Sound Explorer
> "Atom- compatible" which sell for under HK$3k. As the amp we heard got only
> some of the worst 12AT7 and 12AX7 from Russia and East Europe, I would not
> form a conclusion of how good this amp is. But I do believe it is inferior to
> the Atom even when the same tube is used. It should be, given the price,
> right?
>
> Any comment from John, Lee HC and Nic?
>
We both thought that it is a good buy, given the price. No doubt its
larger sibling, selling at $5,000, was much better but in the current
climate, John thinks that a used ARC LS1, less than $5,000, will beat it
in performance. My $3,000 used tube pre-amp purchased yesterday (req
because I am buying a tuner with an output voltage of 500mV) does not
even have half the materials found inside the el cheapo. So if you
believe in stuffing your unit with expensive materials, this pseudo Atom
is one good bargain, though not as good a bargain as some of the
equipment found in Golden Strings sale. IF I can only afford to buy the
four piece Rowland 9T at $123,000.....
nicolas
Andy KONG
>Hay, my hkstar newserver only update every 3-4 days and this dejanews thing is
>so god damn difficult to read msg and also on a 6-8 hours lag. Can anyone just
>build a HKRAV only newserver so I do not have to go thru' the stupid hkstar
>thing again. Apart from dejanews, is there any free newserver available?
>
Keep your finger crossed. A friend promised to look into this, but he
is busy right now as his office is moving to a new place. Let's hope
he can get things sort out quickly and come back to me on this
project.
Andy KONG (Remove "." in "netvigator.com" to response with email)
Lee HC
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote in article <6ps7s1$1id$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> As for the sound, I find the Atom is more musical compare to the LS7 even
when
> stock tubes are used. And it is, IMO, more suitabale to be used with SS
power
> amp. But the dynamics is more limited than the LS7.
> At around HK$10k, I think both the LS7 and the Atom are very good
choices. As
> their characters are so very different from each other, it should be easy
for
> anyone to choose what suit their own taste.
So the information is : LS7 is dynamic, less musical & not sensitive to the
change of tube when comparing with ATOM.
Is LS7 really a tube pre-amp? It sound like a SS pre-amp to me. Ha Ha.
> For those who got the Atom, my advice is to keep the Mullard M8162 gold
pins
> that come with the amp but get a TFK 803S if you can afford it. The
> improvement is huge.
According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that only
sound good with 803s of $3000@?
So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@ already)?
> John, Lee HC, Nic and I have also recently auditioned the Sound Explorer
> "Atom- compatible" which sell for under HK$3k. As the amp we heard got
only
> some of the worst 12AT7 and 12AX7 from Russia and East Europe, I would
not
> form a conclusion of how good this amp is. But I do believe it is
inferior to
> the Atom even when the same tube is used. It should be, given the price,
> right?
>
> Any comment from John, Lee HC and Nic?
I would prefer a 2nd ATOM.
We have tried 2 pre-amps in the show room this afternoon.
One is the $3K & the other is $5K with better component & construction
works.
In fact both of them & the ATOM are derived from the line stage of Matisse
Reference.
Several months ago, we have tried a better clone of Mat. Ref. with much
better volume control than the $5K version, in my place. This one sound
bright & not as musical when compare with Fantasy.
Back to the of $3K vs $5K version Mat. Ref. clone, the $5K one sound much
better for the high range. Bass performance is basically the same with lack
of extension, & IMO, this should be due to the speaker & power amp.
The staff there said that tubes used to 3K & 5K version are the same.
However, I found they use "J" grade of China 12AX7 for the 5K version but
ordinary China 12AX7 for 3K version.
The staff there said no difference between this two 12AX7. He did kindly
change the "J" grade to ordinary grade 12AX7 for the 5K version. Well,
everybody agree the "J" grade did sound better with smoother high & better
air & overtone. However, 5K version with the identical tube of 3K version
is still much better.
> Tim.
Rgds,
Lee HC
cym...@my-dejanews.com
"Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
>
> According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that only
> sound good with 803s of $3000@?
> So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@ already)?
If something sounds good only with 1 tube, it ain't worth it!!
tyy...@hkstar.com
cym...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
> >
> > According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that only
> > sound good with 803s of $3000@?
> > So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@ already)?
>
The default tubes on the Atom is the Mullard M8162 and M8137. On the Atom ad
in hifi magazine and the demo unit in Carry On. It actually use Gold Lion
B739 and Raytheon 5751WA. These 2 tubes cost more than HK$3000 easily.
The stock tubes matched the Atom quite well and I actually used them instead
of the Roll Royce grade vintage tubes I got. I think the sound great on their
own. But if you want the ultimate performance from the Atom. Go for the TFK
803S. Hay, any of you use your equipment with stock power cable? As
mentioned, if you spend money on power cable, why not on NOS tubes, the
return is far more significant. (Oohs, Felix might not agree)
> If something sounds good only with 1 tube, it ain't worth it!!
No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better with
any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
Tim
Lee HC
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote in article <6q17hn$fpd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > If something sounds good only with 1 tube, it ain't worth it!!
>
> No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better
with
> any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>
> Tim
I agree with you on this. So far the audition of your ATOM with default
tube in my & your place are rewarding.
Rgds.
Lee HC
docto...@my-dejanews.com
> change of tube when comparing with ATOM.
> Is LS7 really a tube pre-amp? It sound like a SS pre-amp to me. Ha Ha.
Actually, the sory is more complicated. It is sensitive to change in tube,
but most NOS tubes make the sound more unbalanced! So it is optimized for the
Sovtek 6922. That's not a sin! Tim was just frustrated that all the NOS
6922/6DJ8 he got produced little results.
Same thing happened to the Sonic Frontier SFCD. It sounded better to me with
the Sovtek 6922 than the Siemens CCa
>
> > For those who got the Atom, my advice is to keep the Mullard M8162 gold
> pins
> > that come with the amp but get a TFK 803S if you can afford it. The
> > improvement is huge.
>
> According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that only
> sound good with 803s of $3000@?
> So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@ already)?
Hey LeeHC, you are taking the words out of my mouth???? Are you becoming my
worm?
Felix M.C. Li
> The stock tubes matched the Atom quite well and I actually used them instead
> of the Roll Royce grade vintage tubes I got. I think the sound great on their
> own. But if you want the ultimate performance from the Atom. Go for the TFK
> 803S. Hay, any of you use your equipment with stock power cable? As
> mentioned, if you spend money on power cable, why not on NOS tubes, the
> return is far more significant. (Oohs, Felix might not agree)
>
Well, investing in tubes is wiser than power cords if you want to
be cost effective. If we put the cost aside (for sure we should not
do this), both change the sound radically.
I will not keep more than one set of power cords for my components but
you will keep far more than one set of tubes for only one of yours.
I am not investing, I am enjoying (it is an expenditure).
> No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better with
> any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>
Super expensive power cords may not be able to help in some cases. This
has yet to be proved but tubes are already proved to work good in your
ATOM.
Felix
Lee HC
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6q35n4$g6i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
> >
> > Is LS7 really a tube pre-amp? It sound like a SS pre-amp to me. Ha Ha.
> So it is optimized for the Sovtek 6922. That's not a sin!
You must had consider the Sovtek 6922 the best or the best value for money
6DJ8 tube. Am I right?
> Same thing happened to the Sonic Frontier SFCD. It sounded better to me
with
> the Sovtek 6922 than the Siemens CCa
No wonder I was disappointed with SFCD from all the occasion I heard it.
However, during the first gathering in Captain's home of SF system, I did
experience a significant improvement of smoothness, high extension & bass
control after changing the Sovtek 6922 to Siemens CCa.
> > According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that
only
> > sound good with 803s of $3000@?
> > So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@
already)?
>
> Hey LeeHC, you are taking the words out of my mouth???? Are you becoming
my
> worm?
Should it be Parrot rather than worm in that case?
Anyway, it was just mean to be a joke.
The point is Tim havn't make it clear of his comment of this pre-amp of
with default tube as most of the user will just stay with the default tube.
Rgds.
Lee HC
docto...@my-dejanews.com
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
> No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better with
> any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>
Believe you!
From now on if we comment on a piece of tube gear, I think everyone should
give a description on how the stock tubes sounded before moving on to the
ultimate, because most readers would strat with the stock tubes.
So it IS NICE to know that the LeeHC think the Allegro sound well with the
stock tubes and you think the ATOM sounds good stock.
docto...@my-dejanews.com
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
> No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better with
> any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>
Believe you!
From now on if we comment on a piece of tube gear, I think everyone should
give a description on how the stock tubes sounded before moving on to the
ultimate, because most readers would strat with the stock tubes.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
docto...@my-dejanews.com
"Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
>
> You must had consider the Sovtek 6922 the best or the best value for money
> 6DJ8 tube. Am I right?
> However, during the first gathering in Captain's home of SF system, I did
> experience a significant improvement of smoothness, high extension & bass
> control after changing the Sovtek 6922 to Siemens CCa.
Actually I have very neutral feelings towards the Sovtek 6922. Personally, I
doubt many people who decided not to use it have even broken in the tube. It
is a much better tube than people think (Audiophile's editor Chan said so
himself), and certainly is a balanced sounding tube, though I agree that it
can lack a bit of air when you need it. In certain cicumstances, of course it
is possible to get more of this and that treble or bass from other 6922/6DJ8,
but frequently these NOS are not balanced in sound too! In any case, I do
believe that this is an overated tube type.
> Should it be Parrot rather than worm in that case?
As usual, you are PRECISE! Yes, parrot is more like it!
kev...@hutchcity.com
Sovtek 6922 doesn’t sound tubey and romantic, but it is more neutral. So,
whether you like it or not, it is just a matter of taste.
Kevin
kev...@hutchcity.com
equipment that performs consistent over wide range of tubes. Instead of
depends heavily on premium tube to perform its best! Is it right?
I would be happy if my preamp just sounds great if only uses stock cheap tube,
e.g. Sovtek 6922. It saves me a lot of money for upgrading other equipment or
buying more cd.
Kevin
Andy KONG
>In article <6q0nrn$v8c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> cym...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
>> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
>> >
>> > According to one of our friends criteria, is it a shitty pre-amp that only
>> > sound good with 803s of $3000@?
>> > So does it sound great with its default 12AX7 (Raytheon? $400@ already)?
>>
>
>The default tubes on the Atom is the Mullard M8162 and M8137. On the Atom ad
>in hifi magazine and the demo unit in Carry On. It actually use Gold Lion
>B739 and Raytheon 5751WA. These 2 tubes cost more than HK$3000 easily.
>
>The stock tubes matched the Atom quite well and I actually used them instead
>of the Roll Royce grade vintage tubes I got. I think the sound great on their
>own. But if you want the ultimate performance from the Atom. Go for the TFK
>803S. Hay, any of you use your equipment with stock power cable? As
>mentioned, if you spend money on power cable, why not on NOS tubes, the
>return is far more significant. (Oohs, Felix might not agree)
Can not agree on this because we are listening to two different things
here. We (or should I say most of us) are listened to the amplifier
(or metal), but you are listening to a "tube tester".
I think we have been through this already and I really don't thing any
strong support in comparing tubes and power cord according to our
previous discussion. I am not saying that one is always better than
others, as in the extreme cases, tube will worth good money even after
significant use -- that was new to me but I take the word for granted.
When we look for a power cord, we find one that work well with the
gears and settle with it. Even Felix, who spend more on cables than
anyone else in proportion to the gears, will not change power cord
from time to time. When he changes his power cord, he is looking for
an upgrade in overall performance. But for tube collector, the
amplifier is something that let the tube sing, so you not necessarily
looking for a upgrade on this part, just something different (or how
they were different) when different tubes are used.
Besides, we keep saying that Felix is out of his mind when he use
power cord that cost 50% of his gears, so why shouldn't we continue to
say that you are out of our mind (from an audiophile point of view,
not tube collection point of view) to use tubes that are far more
expensive than the amplifier bass on the same argurment. Of course,
if you admit that they are different, you are free to do that but just
don't quote power cord vs tube as equivalent again. You can't just
compare on the terms that you are interested in and ignor other
factors. When you take it up, you take up the whole package of pro
and cons together.
I think you have make it clear when you considering a new pre-amp.,
right? One of the main reason to go for the Atom is becuase it can
provide more opportunity for you to test your tube collection, which
you can't achieve through LS7 or even the Fantasy.
>> If something sounds good only with 1 tube, it ain't worth it!!
>
>No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better with
>any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>
>Tim
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Andy KONG (Remove "." in "netvigator.com" to response with email)
tyy...@hkstar.com
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
> >
> > change of tube when comparing with ATOM.
>
> but most NOS tubes make the sound more unbalanced! So it is optimized for the
> Sovtek 6922. That's not a sin! Tim was just frustrated that all the NOS
> 6922/6DJ8 he got produced little results.
>
That is no true in my experience. the earliest Siemens CCa will improve ARC
LS7 in all aspect with no negative effect at all. The probelm is the
magnitude of improvement. Even I believe anyone but a deaf person can hear
the difference. It is not as "dramatic" as on other pre-amp e.g. Matisse
Atom. And no matter what tube I used, the ARC still sound with its own
character. So I cannot really use the LS7 to "evaluate" my collection of
6922.
> Same thing happened to the Sonic Frontier SFCD. It sounded better to me with
> the Sovtek 6922 than the Siemens CCa
No, the SFCD1 sound "bad" with its own stock Sovtek. You have to use the
vinatge early 80's black top Sovtek to get good result. And the resolution is
still much lower compare to the earliest Siemens CCa.
tyy...@hkstar.com
I think you have miss the point. I think most tube amp designer KNOW that they
can get better sound from vintage tubes. But they cannot make such an amp to
sell to the consumer market as there simply is no adequate supply for such
tubes.
So they have to take COMPROMISED steps to design the amp "around" an inferior
tube. This actually make the amp design unnecessarily complicated and
definitely not an optimal design.
As mentioned, if you are the type of person who like to use the stock power
cord and the cheapest wire probably, that maybe a good news. But IMO the
insensitivity to tube change is not a hallmark of great amp even as it may be
a very good design from a pure technical point of view.
To be honest, I have yet to hear any tube amp that does not benefit from NOS
tube ever as the degree/magnitude varies from machine to machine. The case of
ARC is the exception rather than the norm. For example, the Sonic Frontier
pre- amp, with very similar market focus and perhaps even more "over-design"
is clearly far more sensitive to tube change.
Tim
In article <6q3r3c$9au$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kev...@hutchcity.com wrote:
> Excuse me, I think it is more an achievement than weakness for certain
> equipment that performs consistent over wide range of tubes. Instead of
> depends heavily on premium tube to perform its best! Is it right?
>
> I would be happy if my preamp just sounds great if only uses stock cheap tube,
> e.g. Sovtek 6922. It saves me a lot of money for upgrading other equipment or
> buying more cd.
>
> Kevin
>
tyy...@hkstar.com
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <01bdbe8a$e4892780$LocalHost@default>,
> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
> >
> > You must had consider the Sovtek 6922 the best or the best value for money
> > 6DJ8 tube. Am I right?
> > No wonder I was disappointed with SFCD from all the occasion I heard it.
> > However, during the first gathering in Captain's home of SF system, I did
> > experience a significant improvement of smoothness, high extension & bass
> > control after changing the Sovtek 6922 to Siemens CCa.
>
> doubt many people who decided not to use it have even broken in the tube. It
> is a much better tube than people think (Audiophile's editor Chan said so
> himself), and certainly is a balanced sounding tube, though I agree that it
> can lack a bit of air when you need it. In certain cicumstances, of course it
> is possible to get more of this and that treble or bass from other 6922/6DJ8,
> but frequently these NOS are not balanced in sound too! In any case, I do
> believe that this is an overated tube type.
>
The Sovtek 6922 is actally not a bad tube particularly for dynmaics. But the
treble does sound dirty compare to vintage NOS. I actually agree that there
are certain pre-amp, particular those from ARC, that seem to have design
their pre- amp around this tube such that change it to a better tube may not
achieve as big an improvementas one will expect.
Furthermore, what I am puzzled the most is that Sovtek, like most vinatge tube
manfucturers in the past, also make better 6922 in earlier time! I found the
new silver top 6922 (with red/white box) to sound inferior to the black top
version (with yellow/blue box) they made in the early 80's.
The way that we rate NOS tubes should be whether they have all-round balanced
performance. For example, TFK ECC83 has wonderful treble but weak bass and
Mullard single support M8137 has great bass but weak treble, while TFK ECC803
and Mullard double support M8137 have both great treble and great bass at the
same time. That is why only the latter two can be considered as among the best
12AX7 ever built.
Tim
tyy...@hkstar.com
I fully understand most of you here are not into tube collection. I think
only myself and Wilson engage in this as one of our hobbies and Creevy as
both hobby and business.
So most of the time when I talk about the comparison with power cord. I am
giving my opinion as a hifi hobbist and not as a tube collector. People do
settle with good tube ever more so than good power cord. Because power cord is
still being developed and made. Are you telling me that Felix is not going to
buy another power cable in his life again. After The One, there will be The
Two, The Zero, The One Mk 2 etc.
But the best 12AX7 in the past, present and the future is going to be either
the TFK803S or 10M. As Lee HC has already compare the 2 and prefer the TFK
803S, he is going to keep this tube until the tube burn out becuase he KNOW
that there will not be a better 12AX7 in this world. And he does not have to
look any more. Can you say this for ANY other hifi equipment.
So I do agree that power cord perhap is not a good analogy as there will
always be a better power cord for sale in the market. But vinatge NOS tube?
No way. It will only be more and more expensive until no one could afford to
hear it any more.
The more I think about this. maybe I should also hunt for a NOS WE300B.
This is from an audiphile view point. From a tube collector's view, to be
honest, I don't even want to power on the tubes. Tube are for keeps, right?
But even wine collectors drink.
Tim
In article <35c88b8f...@news.netvigator.com>,
andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 08:21:12 GMT, tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>
> >In article <6q0nrn$v8c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > cym...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
> >Tim
> >
> >-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> >http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
> Andy KONG (Remove "." in "netvigator.com" to response with email)
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
patrick
Other tubes just give different sound, not better. I have tried more
than 20 brands. Kevin is right. Why bother if you are happy with the
stock tube?
On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:07:09 GMT, kev...@hutchcity.com wrote:
>Excuse me, I think it is more an achievement than weakness for certain
>equipment that performs consistent over wide range of tubes. Instead of
>depends heavily on premium tube to perform its best! Is it right?
>
>I would be happy if my preamp just sounds great if only uses stock cheap tube,
>e.g. Sovtek 6922. It saves me a lot of money for upgrading other equipment or
>buying more cd.
>
>
>Kevin
>
Andy KONG
>Andy,
>
>I fully understand most of you here are not into tube collection. I think
>only myself and Wilson engage in this as one of our hobbies and Creevy as
>both hobby and business.
Actually, I think you are trying to justify your direction by
comparing with some typical behaviour of audiophile. I really think
this is not necessary.
You have make it clear that you picked Atom because it is a better
tube tester than others. You don't need to use matched tube on Atom
and you have a good collection of tube for that already. Although I
don't think that is a wise decision (or a logical choice as an upgrade
from your LS7), I admire your deligence towards tube collection and
therefore share your happiness when you get your new toys.
I think it is much better off that way, continue as a die-hard tube
collector. If you are happy with that, why try to convince others on
that.
>
>So most of the time when I talk about the comparison with power cord. I am
>giving my opinion as a hifi hobbist and not as a tube collector. People do
>settle with good tube ever more so than good power cord. Because power cord is
>still being developed and made. Are you telling me that Felix is not going to
>buy another power cable in his life again. After The One, there will be The
>Two, The Zero, The One Mk 2 etc.
>
>But the best 12AX7 in the past, present and the future is going to be either
>the TFK803S or 10M. As Lee HC has already compare the 2 and prefer the TFK
>803S, he is going to keep this tube until the tube burn out becuase he KNOW
>that there will not be a better 12AX7 in this world. And he does not have to
>look any more. Can you say this for ANY other hifi equipment.
>
Let's assume you are correct in this. So Lee will continue to use his
803S, and he might bought an extra pair when he run into a good buy.
But will he collect a full line up of 12AX7? Will he try different
12AX7 in his sytem once for a while? I don't think he will do that (as
the worm I think this is a good guess). But on the other hand, I know
you'll continue your tube collection. For instance, you have just
move up from 300 NOS collection to 400 NOS collection, right?
On the other hand, when I know Cardas Golden Cross power cord is a
good match for Krell KAV, it will more of less work with anything that
has that characterisitcs. In this case, both KAV300i and KAV300p will
match with it. But what about tube changing? Will the same tube
always the best in Atom and Fantasy?
On the other hand, you disagree with me that there is objective
criteria in measuring the peformance of a HiFi system. But on the
other hand, you truely believe there is an absolute measurement on
tubes, and there is such thing as "the best 12AX7in the history of the
word", in regardless of system synergy. How strange!
>So I do agree that power cord perhap is not a good analogy as there will
>always be a better power cord for sale in the market. But vinatge NOS tube?
>No way. It will only be more and more expensive until no one could afford to
>hear it any more.
>
If you insisted that tube is the main character (wife) and everything
is secondary (mistress), than don't compare with power cord. Power
cord is an accessory, not the main character. When someone bought a
$10K amplifier, and then bought a $5K power cord for the amplifier, we
(most audiophile) think this is out of proportion, so we said he is
out of his mind. But if someone bought a $10k amplifier and spend
another $5K to change the tubes, that is perfectly acceptable in your
terms, right? As a tube collector, yes. But as a audiophile, that is
very marginally already. That is the different here. They aren't
equal, and nor comparable.
Now, what happen if you spend more than $10K on tubes repalcement?
Look at Stephen's case, how much will he spend on tube replacement if
he want to get his AS M7 and Allego into "good" performance?
>The more I think about this. maybe I should also hunt for a NOS WE300B.
>
As a tube collector, you should do that.
>This is from an audiphile view point. From a tube collector's view, to be
>honest, I don't even want to power on the tubes. Tube are for keeps, right?
>But even wine collectors drink.
>
>Tim
>
>
But "using ultra expensive tube on average gears is like using ultra
expensive power cord"? I still think they are very different. This
is for your benefit indeed.
To start with, not a lot of audiophile use stock cable, but who is
going to use power cord that is more expensive than the amplifier? But
this is not uncommon for tube collector, right?
Andy KONG
<feli...@techie.com> wrote:
>tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> I fully understand most of you here are not into tube collection. I think
>> only myself and Wilson engage in this as one of our hobbies and Creevy as
>> both hobby and business.
>>
>> So most of the time when I talk about the comparison with power cord. I am
>> giving my opinion as a hifi hobbist and not as a tube collector. People do
>> settle with good tube ever more so than good power cord. Because power cord is
>> still being developed and made. Are you telling me that Felix is not going to
>> buy another power cable in his life again. After The One, there will be The
>> Two, The Zero, The One Mk 2 etc.
>>
>
>Oops, I am rooling on the table, oouh.
Well, count yourself lucky. You have only rolled three times back and
fourth, it hardly is comparable with Lee's expeience who was on the
table for several weeks.
>
>1. I am using The One digital cable, there is no The One power cord.
>2. Same to you, there are tubes that you still don't know if it can
>perform better than yours. Are you sure you won't buy it.
>3. See below.
>
>> But the best 12AX7 in the past, present and the future is going to be either
>> the TFK803S or 10M. As Lee HC has already compare the 2 and prefer the TFK
>> 803S, he is going to keep this tube until the tube burn out becuase he KNOW
>> that there will not be a better 12AX7 in this world. And he does not have to
>> look any more. Can you say this for ANY other hifi equipment.
>>
>> So I do agree that power cord perhap is not a good analogy as there will
>> always be a better power cord for sale in the market. But vinatge NOS tube?
>> No way. It will only be more and more expensive until no one could afford to
>> hear it any more.
>>
>
>To me, the power cords that I would buy is already very expensive and
>not many people will buy it. Like what you've said on tubes. Without a
>demand, that high price trivial.
Let's see if you'll upgrade your MF A1000 power cord from Fantastic
Power Cord to the flagship of NBS -- the natural upgrade.
>
>But if I find a better power cord that I can afford (subtract that
>with value in selling my old ones), I will certainly buy it. It will
>be a waste to keep more than one set of cables since I would not
>change it from time to time with different music.
>
>Will you buy a better tube if you find one and sell the old one ?
>
>Remember, I am not a collector, I am paying for my enjoyment and I
>wish I had the capacity in vitamin M as one of our friends.
>
>I am talking as a hi-fi hobbist rather than an analyst or consultant.
>
>Felix
consultant? hey, that's my job. But I only speak as an audiophile
here.
Suddenly, everyone claimed that he is making his statement from
audiophile point of view.
Felix M.C. Li
>
> Andy,
>
> I fully understand most of you here are not into tube collection. I think
> only myself and Wilson engage in this as one of our hobbies and Creevy as
> both hobby and business.
>
> So most of the time when I talk about the comparison with power cord. I am
> giving my opinion as a hifi hobbist and not as a tube collector. People do
> settle with good tube ever more so than good power cord. Because power cord is
> still being developed and made. Are you telling me that Felix is not going to
> buy another power cable in his life again. After The One, there will be The
> Two, The Zero, The One Mk 2 etc.
>
Oops, I am rooling on the table, oouh.
1. I am using The One digital cable, there is no The One power cord.
2. Same to you, there are tubes that you still don't know if it can
perform better than yours. Are you sure you won't buy it.
3. See below.
> But the best 12AX7 in the past, present and the future is going to be either
> the TFK803S or 10M. As Lee HC has already compare the 2 and prefer the TFK
> 803S, he is going to keep this tube until the tube burn out becuase he KNOW
> that there will not be a better 12AX7 in this world. And he does not have to
> look any more. Can you say this for ANY other hifi equipment.
>
> So I do agree that power cord perhap is not a good analogy as there will
> always be a better power cord for sale in the market. But vinatge NOS tube?
> No way. It will only be more and more expensive until no one could afford to
> hear it any more.
>
To me, the power cords that I would buy is already very expensive and
not many people will buy it. Like what you've said on tubes. Without a
demand, that high price trivial.
But if I find a better power cord that I can afford (subtract that
Tim
used are truly the WORST money can buy. I'd wish if I have bought some
decent tubes like the M8162 and M8137 as used in the stock Atom.
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6q3928$kf5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6q17hn$fpd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>> No, it sound good with the stock tube and stock pwoer cable but better
with
>> any Roll Royce grade 12AX7 and super expensive power cord.
>>
>
>Believe you!
>
>From now on if we comment on a piece of tube gear, I think everyone should
>give a description on how the stock tubes sounded before moving on to the
>ultimate, because most readers would strat with the stock tubes.
>
>So it IS NICE to know that the LeeHC think the Allegro sound well with the
>stock tubes and you think the ATOM sounds good stock.
>
docto...@my-dejanews.com
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>
> Furthermore, what I am puzzled the most is that Sovtek, like most vinatge tube
> manfucturers in the past, also make better 6922 in earlier time! I found the
> new silver top 6922 (with red/white box) to sound inferior to the black top
> version (with yellow/blue box) they made in the early 80's.
This is true, but the silver top with red/white box is NOT the latest
version!!! The latest version is what ARC provides stock now, the ones with
SILVER plates! Now, those are LEAN.
> ...TFK ECC83 has wonderful treble but weak bass
Sounds like the Tesla 803S gold pin repro.
docto...@my-dejanews.com
tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
> After The One, there will be The
> Two, The Zero, The One Mk 2 etc.
That's well put! Ultimately there will be the DEATH! Sigh, not enough time to
enjoy hi-fi...
> So I do agree that power cord perhap is not a good analogy as there will
> always be a better power cord for sale in the market. But vinatge NOS tube?
> No way. It will only be more and more expensive until no one could afford to
> hear it any more.
Completely agree. Which is why I ask people to pay attention to their metals
and not waste those tubes!
BTW, I do NOT consider Allegro 300B, Audion Sterling and even the Audio Note
300B good metal! Nor any of the mass market 300B amps out there. Is THAT fair
enough an assessment, gentlemen??
I also agree the power cord analogy is not good.
docto...@my-dejanews.com
andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>
> If you insisted that tube is the main character (wife) and everything
> is secondary (mistress)
Then Tim has outdone the Muslims and mormons and...
docto...@my-dejanews.com
andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>
> Suddenly, everyone claimed that he is making his statement from
> audiophile point of view.
NOT everyone!
I always say "from a classical lover's viewpoint". Incidentally, I do believe
that's the most accurate viewpoint, thought the audiophile's viewpoint is
frequently different.
Andy KONG
>In article <35c9fa3f...@news.netvigator.com>,
> andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>>
>> If you insisted that tube is the main character (wife) and everything
>> is secondary (mistress)
>
>Then Tim has outdone the Muslims and mormons and...
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Woh, that means we can worship Tim because of that? That is new to
me.
Felix M.C. Li
>
> On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 00:46:41 +0800, "Felix M.C. Li"
> <feli...@techie.com> wrote:
> >not many people will buy it. Like what you've said on tubes. Without a
> >demand, that high price trivial.
>
> Power Cord to the flagship of NBS -- the natural upgrade.
>
Unless I can find a NBS Statement 2 around $4000 of I win Mark Six.
> >
> >I am talking as a hi-fi hobbist rather than an analyst or consultant.
> >
> consultant? hey, that's my job. But I only speak as an audiophile
> here.
>
I am a consultant in my office but I am not in my hobby.
> Suddenly, everyone claimed that he is making his statement from
> audiophile point of view.
>
I am not speaking as an audiophile but only a Hi-Fi hobbist (without
enough vitamin M).
Felix
Felix M.C. Li
>
> No, the SFCD1 sound "bad" with its own stock Sovtek. You have to use the
> vinatge early 80's black top Sovtek to get good result. And the resolution is
> still much lower compare to the earliest Siemens CCa.
>
Disagree. The SFCD1 doesn't sound bad at all. You can say it sound
better with tube upgrade but it sounds pretty good with stock tubes
already (don't compare it to higher end gears, in terms of money).
Felix
kev...@hutchcity.com
the circuit unnecessarily complicated.
In fact, due to large availability of modern tube, very low noise and low distortion
can be achieved through tube grading process. Therefore, designing around modern
may even make the circuit simpler, like less feedback is enough to achieve low
distortion. I don’t mean good lab figure should sound better, I just want to
point out your assumption is not hold.
By the way, I don’t care whether my preamp is great or not, or whether it is
sensitive to tube change. I only care it can give pleasant listening experience.
Does it exactly what High-End stand for?
Kevin
tyy...@hkstar.com
I think you have misunderstood my meaning of designing "around" a tube. I
actually meant to make the sound to be as independent to the tube as possible.
But Kelvin, there is no point for us to argue. The point is whether you think
an amp which does not benefit significantly from NOS tubes actually exist?
Even ARC benefit significantly from use of Roll Royce grade tube. It is just
that the degree is less and the amp retain very much its own sound signature
as compare to amp from other manaufacturers. So even if you are right, such
amp does not exist.
If it does, why do you think the price of NOS tube has gone up too much in the
past. There are only very few of these tubes bought by collector. Most are
actually "consumed" to improve the sound of modern hifi tube amp.
BTW, I agree tube selection can make a huge difference and could even make
many modern tube as good as the super vintage. But this is also very very
expensive. Just look at the price of Gold Aero Platinum Series and you know
what I mean. The price is not any lower than the vinatge NOS.
Tim
In article <35C688E5...@hutchcity.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Andy KONG
<feli...@techie.com> wrote:
For the information of others, this is from someone who are using the
following power cords:
2 X Aural Symphonic Missing Link Cube 2
1 X Furutech Power Reference
1 X Fantastic
Although he got these second handed, but they still are pretty pricy.
I am not sure if I agree that Vit M is a pre-requsit as a audiophile.
It is nice to have, but are they absolute necessary?
Andy KONG
>In article <6q35n4$g6i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <01bdbd04$73026ea0$810148ca@default>,
>> "Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
>> >
>> > So the information is : LS7 is dynamic, less musical & not sensitive to the
>> > change of tube when comparing with ATOM.
>> > Is LS7 really a tube pre-amp? It sound like a SS pre-amp to me. Ha Ha.
>>
>> Actually, the sory is more complicated. It is sensitive to change in tube,
>> but most NOS tubes make the sound more unbalanced! So it is optimized for the
>> Sovtek 6922. That's not a sin! Tim was just frustrated that all the NOS
>> 6922/6DJ8 he got produced little results.
>>
>
>That is no true in my experience. the earliest Siemens CCa will improve ARC
>LS7 in all aspect with no negative effect at all. The probelm is the
>magnitude of improvement. Even I believe anyone but a deaf person can hear
>the difference. It is not as "dramatic" as on other pre-amp e.g. Matisse
>Atom. And no matter what tube I used, the ARC still sound with its own
>character. So I cannot really use the LS7 to "evaluate" my collection of
>6922.
>
>> Same thing happened to the Sonic Frontier SFCD. It sounded better to me with
>> the Sovtek 6922 than the Siemens CCa
>
>No, the SFCD1 sound "bad" with its own stock Sovtek. You have to use the
>vinatge early 80's black top Sovtek to get good result. And the resolution is
>still much lower compare to the earliest Siemens CCa.
>
>Tim
I noticed you use quotation mark to single out the word BAD in the
sentence. I suppose you mean the word has special meaning.
If you means they are really really bad, that I would like to know
your point of reference here. Although I won't buy a SFCD1 myself and
I certainly don't encourage others to go for that anymore after
reading the infavourable comments (and I count myself and Ricky both
very lucky on this account), but I think the SFCD1 with stock tube is
a pretty decent CD player for normal audiophiles. I might not have the
"wetness" in vocal and overtune to please SETA users, but it does
offer balanced sound, accurate playback, and sweet tonal balance. The
contrast is very good also but it might sound very HiFi because of
that.
If this is not what you mean, I think you better clarify here. So how
"bad" it is when compare to other $20K CD player or Transport/DAC
combo? We have compared it with Resolutaion CD50 when stock tube is
used, and everyone agree that CD50 is a good player at its price
($15K+), but SFCD1 is clear winner after AB comparison. So did you
compare to other players such as ARC CD2, Wadia 830, or Meridian
508.24?
I hope you don't mean all these players are bad when compare to your
own setup. (Well, if there is no reference player, I suppose the only
reference point left is your personal setup).
Felix M.C. Li
15:52:47 GMT :
>
>For the information of others, this is from someone who are using the
>following power cords:
>
>2 X Aural Symphonic Missing Link Cube 2
>1 X Furutech Power Reference
>1 X Fantastic
>
Then it comes The One, MIT 750CVT II, TaraLab Decade, Goldmund cones x
2, GM cones, .....
The floating ground station is also coming after my salary day.
So ...
>Although he got these second handed, but they still are pretty pricy.
>
>I am not sure if I agree that Vit M is a pre-requsit as a audiophile.
>It is nice to have, but are they absolute necessary?
>
Without vitamin M, how can you get those things ?
Felix
Andy KONG
wrote:
Those are not pre-requisite as audiophile.
>
>Felix
So, what happen to someone who get a Audiolab with SL600 from second
hand shop? Fairly cheap for sure but can still sound good, definitely
typical example of entry level audiophile setup in my book.
Actually, I call myself an audiophile when I use LD player + AV amp. +
Bryston 4B + Focus Audio FS77, with cheap cables and interconnects.
Lee HC
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6q5pij$22q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> Completely agree. Which is why I ask people to pay attention to their
metals
> and not waste those tubes!
>
How great will a great metal be, e.g. Marantz 9, if I use this for a system
& environment:
1. Room area <100 sq ft.
2. AC voltage 200 volt.
3. Tube CD player from China.
4. Clone M7 of China.
5. a pair of La Scala
As far as I know great metal don't reproduce music alone.
Environment is much more important.
Matching of gears & environment is equally important as the great metal.
I have read a lot & experience some about this. Die Walkure.
Rgds.
Lee HC
Tim
Felix M.C. Li wrote in message <35C5E970...@techie.com>...
>tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>Will you buy a better tube if you find one and sell the old one ?
>
You see, that is the main difference. I am 99% SURE that there would not be
a better 6DJ8 compare to the earliest Siemens CCa, TFK E188CC, Amperex
pinched waist 6922, 10M 6DJ8 and GEC CV2492, which I already have. So my
collection for the 6DJ8 is COMPLETED and there is no need for me to buy a
better tube because it is not likely to exist. I will only buy them if they
are at a cheap price so that I can swap tubes with other collectors.
But I am almost 100% sure that there will be a better interconnect and cable
compare to any thing in the market today in the next 3 years.
I will not sell my best collection but may swap them for other vinatge
tubes. And I will and am selling tubes that I do not consider best of the
best.
Tim
Tim
<6q5pt6$2t3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <35c9fa3f...@news.netvigator.com>,
> andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>>
>> If you insisted that tube is the main character (wife) and everything
>> is secondary (mistress)
>
>Then Tim has outdone the Muslims and mormons and...
>
But not ancient Chinese emperor nor Magic Johnson. Yet.
Tim
N C Ong
>
>
> So, what happen to someone who get a Audiolab with SL600 from second
> hand shop? Fairly cheap for sure but can still sound good, definitely
> typical example of entry level audiophile setup in my book.
>
Go get some Audioquest Topaz Hyperlitz from Ap Liu St. DIY yourself. I
did.
Nic
Felix M.C. Li
I built a lot of things when I am still in secondary school.
Having evolved so many years, my definition of audiophile changed
radically.
I start my journey with a Sansui receiver, a Sansui tape deck, a
Sansui turntable with a pair of Sansui speakers. All cables are
those red and black type power cables.
(Those tube days not counted since they belong to my father)
I get them all by exchanging a mono radio with my uncle.
My first LP is Danny Chan's "Gum Siu Dor Jung Chung".
For sure money cannot necessary buy good sound but without money,
you are much harder in getting good sound.
Felix
Andy KONG
<nico...@2001netvigator.com> wrote:
>Andy KONG wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, what happen to someone who get a Audiolab with SL600 from second
>> hand shop? Fairly cheap for sure but can still sound good, definitely
>> typical example of entry level audiophile setup in my book.
>>
>Go and cut some $20/ft power cords from Chee Kee, 3/F Tuck Fatt Centre.
>Go get some Audioquest Topaz Hyperlitz from Ap Liu St. DIY yourself. I
>did.
>
>Nic
Quite right, but that's not what I mean in the first place. I mean
good sound can be available for cheap as well, with some compromise.
Tim
Andy KONG wrote in message <35d432b2...@news.netvigator.com>...
>On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:44:21 GMT, tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>
>>No, the SFCD1 sound "bad" with its own stock Sovtek. You have to use the
>>vinatge early 80's black top Sovtek to get good result. And the resolution
is
>>still much lower compare to the earliest Siemens CCa.
>>
>>Tim
>
>I noticed you use quotation mark to single out the word BAD in the
>sentence. I suppose you mean the word has special meaning.
>
>If you means they are really really bad, that I would like to know
>your point of reference here. Although I won't buy a SFCD1 myself and
>I certainly don't encourage others to go for that anymore after
>reading the infavourable comments (and I count myself and Ricky both
>very lucky on this account), but I think the SFCD1 with stock tube is
>a pretty decent CD player for normal audiophiles. I might not have the
>"wetness" in vocal and overtune to please SETA users, but it does
>offer balanced sound, accurate playback, and sweet tonal balance. The
>contrast is very good also but it might sound very HiFi because of
>that.
>
The "bad" I used carried two meaning. First is that it relatively bad
compare to if the Sovtek 6922 in the SFCD1 are replaced by better tubes.
Second is that I do not like the sound particualrly for the tonal balance
which I do not think is correct or sweet. But of course, this depend on
personal perference. Like Nic, I much prefer the sound from Micromega
digital gear at a fraction of the ocst of the SFCD1.
Tim
Andy KONG
I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
still hear the different.
Andy KONG
>
>Andy KONG wrote in message <35d432b2...@news.netvigator.com>...
>>On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:44:21 GMT, tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>>
>>>No, the SFCD1 sound "bad" with its own stock Sovtek. You have to use the
>>>vinatge early 80's black top Sovtek to get good result. And the resolution
>is
>>>still much lower compare to the earliest Siemens CCa.
>>>
>>>Tim
>>
>>I noticed you use quotation mark to single out the word BAD in the
>>sentence. I suppose you mean the word has special meaning.
>>
>>If you means they are really really bad, that I would like to know
>>your point of reference here. Although I won't buy a SFCD1 myself and
>>I certainly don't encourage others to go for that anymore after
>>reading the infavourable comments (and I count myself and Ricky both
>>very lucky on this account), but I think the SFCD1 with stock tube is
>>a pretty decent CD player for normal audiophiles. I might not have the
>>"wetness" in vocal and overtune to please SETA users, but it does
>>offer balanced sound, accurate playback, and sweet tonal balance. The
>>contrast is very good also but it might sound very HiFi because of
>>that.
>>
>
>
>The "bad" I used carried two meaning. First is that it relatively bad
>compare to if the Sovtek 6922 in the SFCD1 are replaced by better tubes.
I must say you are very innovative in description. I'll never
associate with the word "bad" after hearing the different in Capt
Lo's SFCD1.
>Second is that I do not like the sound particualrly for the tonal balance
>which I do not think is correct or sweet. But of course, this depend on
>personal perference. Like Nic, I much prefer the sound from Micromega
>digital gear at a fraction of the ocst of the SFCD1.
>
>Tim
How much is your Micromega setup if purchased brand new?
john...@cuhk.edu.hk
"Lee HC" <le...@glink.net.hk> wrote:
>
> As far as I know great metal don't reproduce music alone.>
> Environment is much more important.
> Matching of gears & environment is equally important as the great metal.
No argument on that.
King
Andy KONG wrote in message <35ced714...@news.netvigator.com>...
I don't think Tim is going to stop. Using the analogy of cars, what Tim got
now is the Rolls Royce version of a Skoda. When he progresses to better
cars, he will start to collect the Rolls Royce version of those cars. :-)
Regards
King
Felix M.C. Li
>
> Felix M.C. Li wrote in message <35C5E970...@techie.com>...
> >tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
>
> >Will you buy a better tube if you find one and sell the old one ?
> >
>
> You see, that is the main difference. I am 99% SURE that there would not
be
> a better 6DJ8 compare to the earliest Siemens CCa, TFK E188CC, Amperex
> pinched waist 6922, 10M 6DJ8 and GEC CV2492, which I already have. So my
> collection for the 6DJ8 is COMPLETED and there is no need for me to buy
a
> better tube because it is not likely to exist. I will only buy them if
they
> are at a cheap price so that I can swap tubes with other collectors.
>
How about the other tubes ? You only use 6DJ8 for the whole set ?
> But I am almost 100% sure that there will be a better interconnect and
cable
> compare to any thing in the market today in the next 3 years.
>
I don't see a problem here, not just the cables, the components will
have newer improved version any day any time. Say you won't upgrade
in the following years.
> I will not sell my best collection but may swap them for other vinatge
> tubes. And I will and am selling tubes that I do not consider best of
the
> best.
>
You are keeping a COLLECTION of your best of the best, I am not keeping
a COLLECTION of assorted cables for best of the best, I am enjoying
the music with the expanded possibilities from them.
Felix
N C Ong
>
> Andy KONG wrote:
> >
> >
> > So, what happen to someone who get a Audiolab with SL600 from second
> > hand shop? Fairly cheap for sure but can still sound good, definitely
> > typical example of entry level audiophile setup in my book.
> >
> Go and cut some $20/ft power cords from Chee Kee, 3/F Tuck Fatt Centre.
> Go get some Audioquest Topaz Hyperlitz from Ap Liu St. DIY yourself. I
> did.
>
terminated 1m pair they cost ~$600.
Nic
docto...@my-dejanews.com
"King" <drw...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think Tim is going to stop. Using the analogy of cars, what Tim got
> now is the Rolls Royce version of a Skoda. When he progresses to better
> cars, he will start to collect the Rolls Royce version of those cars. :-)
I think Tim can be formally declared to be "ON THE TABLE".
docto...@my-dejanews.com
andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>
> I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
> audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
> end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
> improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
> still hear the different.
In a way I agree with you. There's no such thing as getting the perfect woman.
Even if I do get one, I will probable still fol around...
See, there's no perfection...
I hear angry footsteps. Sound like Andy and Tim's wives.
R.Mui
King 撰寫於文章 <6q8m33$die$1...@unix2.glink.net.hk>...
:
:Andy KONG wrote in message <35ced714...@news.netvigator.com>...
:|On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:15:43 +0800, "Tim" <tyy...@hkstar.com> wrote:
:|
:|>
:|>Felix M.C. Li wrote in message <35C5E970...@techie.com>...
:|>>tyy...@hkstar.com wrote:
:|>
:|>>Will you buy a better tube if you find one and sell the old one ?
:|>>
:|>
:|>You see, that is the main difference. I am 99% SURE that there would not
:be
:|>a better 6DJ8 compare to the earliest Siemens CCa, TFK E188CC, Amperex
:|>pinched waist 6922, 10M 6DJ8 and GEC CV2492, which I already have. So my
:|>collection for the 6DJ8 is COMPLETED and there is no need for me to buy a
:|>better tube because it is not likely to exist. I will only buy them if
:they
:|>are at a cheap price so that I can swap tubes with other collectors.
:|>
:|>But I am almost 100% sure that there will be a better interconnect and
:cable
:|>compare to any thing in the market today in the next 3 years.
:|>
:|>I will not sell my best collection but may swap them for other vinatge
:|>tubes. And I will and am selling tubes that I do not consider best of the
:|>best.
:|>
:|>Tim
:|>
:|>
:|
:|I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
:|audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
:|end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
:|improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
:|still hear the different.
:|
:
:
:I don't think Tim is going to stop. Using the analogy of cars, what Tim got
:now is the Rolls Royce version of a Skoda. When he progresses to better
:cars, he will start to collect the Rolls Royce version of those cars. :-)
:Regards
:King
I would be most interested to know how anyone can make a Rolls Royce out of
a Skoda!! It might make it more likable but a "fully loaded" Skoda is still
a Skoda, right? (^_^)
Richard
N C Ong
>
>
> I would be most interested to know how anyone can make a Rolls Royce out of
> a Skoda!! It might make it more likable but a "fully loaded" Skoda is still
> a Skoda, right? (^_^)
>
How do Skoda owners warm their windscreen during winter? Ans: they put
their hands on to the darn thing.
Nic
tyy...@hkstar.com
> I don't think Tim is going to stop. Using the analogy of cars, what Tim got
> now is the Rolls Royce version of a Skoda. When he progresses to better
> cars, he will start to collect the Rolls Royce version of those cars. :-)
> Regards
> King
>
Exactly. Hay King, when can I get that Raythen 5842Q?
Tim
Business Development
> I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
> audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
> end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
> improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
> still hear the different.
>
Couldn't resist to write this but ...
Not trying to challenge anyone or make enemy ... but how can you
determine you have reach the "ultimate" & what's the definitely of
ultimate ? Money can buy ? What's available in the industry ?
Most of the time when you swap things, you will hear difference, big
difference
perhaps from what you use to every now and then but they are far from
"ultimate". Of my thirty some years of hi-fi fun, I can only
offer one idea. There are no best of anything, the fun about Hi-end
is the ability to trail and experience various components working
together. In the course of doing so, you will experience difference
in sound and illusion. That's the enjoyment. Oh, some may apply
pratical knowledge, both in electrical and mechnical to enhance that
"fun" process. That's why we call it a hobby. But nothing is
accomplishing the "ultimate" and what is the "ultimate" ?
What is the purpose of a hi-fi system in the first place ?
The answer you provide determine you direction. For myself, I put
together systems that are balance (in terms of sonic comfort), musical
(again in terms of getting the message of what the performers trying
to send), and high fidelity (in terms of being as real as possible).
I do not talk about extended high and low frequency, sweetness of femal
vocal, etc. They are being use to describe characteristic but far from
the purpose of hi-fi.
I would love to be able to continue this thread of disscussion from
fellow audiophile.
Happy Hi-end.
Creevy
docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In a way I agree with you. There's no such thing as getting the perfect woman.
> Even if I do get one, I will probable still fol around...
>
> See, there's no perfection...
>
> I hear angry footsteps. Sound like Andy and Tim's wives.
>
Hey, we are never satisfied with our woman, as others are always better!
Creevy
Andy KONG
<nico...@2001netvigator.com> wrote:
>R.Mui wrote:
>>
>>
>> I would be most interested to know how anyone can make a Rolls Royce out of
>> a Skoda!! It might make it more likable but a "fully loaded" Skoda is still
>> a Skoda, right? (^_^)
>>
>How do you double the price of a Skoda? Ans: you fill it up with petrol.
I think double the "value" is more appropriate.
>
>How do Skoda owners warm their windscreen during winter? Ans: they put
>their hands on to the darn thing.
>
>Nic
No, they take the windscreen down
Andy KONG
>In article <6q8m33$die$1...@unix2.glink.net.hk>,
> "King" <drw...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think Tim is going to stop. Using the analogy of cars, what Tim got
>> now is the Rolls Royce version of a Skoda. When he progresses to better
>> cars, he will start to collect the Rolls Royce version of those cars. :-)
>
>I think Tim can be formally declared to be "ON THE TABLE".
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
it is about time.
Andy KONG
>In article <35ced714...@news.netvigator.com>,
> andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>>
>> I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
>> audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
>> end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
>> improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
>> still hear the different.
>
>In a way I agree with you. There's no such thing as getting the perfect woman.
>Even if I do get one, I will probable still fol around...
>
>See, there's no perfection...
>
>I hear angry footsteps. Sound like Andy and Tim's wives.
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
You really are good at turning whatever topic into woman related.
John, may I introduce you to a news group called hk.talk.love, and if
this is not specific enough, there is always the famous hk.talk.sex.
Bet you'll find yourself home over there. Just hope that they won't
keep you completely as we still need you around --- you promised to
host party at your place 3 weeks later.
docto...@my-dejanews.com
andy...@net.vigator.com (Andy KONG) wrote:
>
> John, may I introduce you to a news group called hk.talk.love, and if
> this is not specific enough, there is always the famous hk.talk.sex.
> Bet you'll find yourself home over there.
I don't like to just talk...
Just hope that they won't
> keep you completely as we still need you around --- you promised to
> host party at your place 3 weeks later.
You are NOT going to ruin my 3/5A with those discs...
Lee HC
Business Development <b...@netvigator.com> wrote in article
<35C93C...@netvigator.com>...
>
> Couldn't resist to write this but ...
> Not trying to challenge anyone or make enemy ... but how can you
> determine you have reach the "ultimate" & what's the definitely of
> ultimate ? Money can buy ? What's available in the industry ?
> Most of the time when you swap things, you will hear difference, big
> difference
> perhaps from what you use to every now and then but they are far from
> "ultimate". Of my thirty some years of hi-fi fun, I can only
> offer one idea. There are no best of anything, the fun about Hi-end
> is the ability to trail and experience various components working
> together. In the course of doing so, you will experience difference
> in sound and illusion. That's the enjoyment. Oh, some may apply
> pratical knowledge, both in electrical and mechnical to enhance that
> "fun" process. That's why we call it a hobby. But nothing is
> accomplishing the "ultimate" and what is the "ultimate" ?
I agree there is still a long way to explore, no matter how good a system
sound.
In the case of tube, I also hope that you are right.
I can only bless for the further improvement of new tubes from
manufacturer, instead of getting worse & worse as the case of Sovtek 6922
that Tim mentioned.
> What is the purpose of a hi-fi system in the first place ?
>
> Happy Hi-end.
Make the user happy is already good. No need for High-end.
Sometime, I just wonder what we have been doing here?
We are not aiming at changing the other to the same way, ain't we?
Happy HiFi life.
Lee HC
Andy KONG
wrote:
>
>
>docto...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> In a way I agree with you. There's no such thing as getting the perfect woman.
>> Even if I do get one, I will probable still fol around...
>>
>> See, there's no perfection...
>>
>> I hear angry footsteps. Sound like Andy and Tim's wives.
>>
>
>Hey, we are never satisfied with our woman, as others are always better!
>
>Creevy
>
Not really. In some case, the male are just INTERESTED in other
female, not necessarily think it is better overall.
Andy KONG
Well, don't you know that everyone in HKRAV is good at putting othes
on table.
Andy KONG
<b...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> I know you probably will disagree but I still want to say this. As a
>> audiophile, this is very sad indeed. We reach the ultimte (i.e., dead
>> end) when we are so young in the journey. I much rather unexpected
>> improvement somehow, somewhere, down the next 10~20 years when I can
>> still hear the different.
>>
>> Andy KONG (Remove "." in "netvigator.com" to response with email)
>
>Couldn't resist to write this but ...
>Not trying to challenge anyone or make enemy ... but how can you
>determine you have reach the "ultimate" & what's the definitely of
>ultimate ? Money can buy ? What's available in the industry ?
>Most of the time when you swap things, you will hear difference, big
>difference
>perhaps from what you use to every now and then but they are far from
>"ultimate". Of my thirty some years of hi-fi fun, I can only
>offer one idea. There are no best of anything, the fun about Hi-end
>is the ability to trail and experience various components working
>together. In the course of doing so, you will experience difference
>in sound and illusion. That's the enjoyment. Oh, some may apply
>pratical knowledge, both in electrical and mechnical to enhance that
>"fun" process. That's why we call it a hobby. But nothing is
>accomplishing the "ultimate" and what is the "ultimate" ?
>
>What is the purpose of a hi-fi system in the first place ?
>
>The answer you provide determine you direction. For myself, I put
>together systems that are balance (in terms of sonic comfort), musical
>(again in terms of getting the message of what the performers trying
>to send), and high fidelity (in terms of being as real as possible).
>I do not talk about extended high and low frequency, sweetness of femal
>vocal, etc. They are being use to describe characteristic but far from
>the purpose of hi-fi.
>
>I would love to be able to continue this thread of disscussion from
>fellow audiophile.
>
>Happy Hi-end.
I said this because Tim said:
"I am 99% SURE that there would not be a better 6DJ8 compare to the
earliest Siemens CCa, TFK E188CC, Amperex pinched waist 6922, 10M 6DJ8
and GEC CV2492, which I already have. So my collection for the 6DJ8 is
COMPLETED and there is no need for me to buy a better tube because it
is not likely to exist. I will only buy them if they are at a cheap
price so that I can swap tubes with other collectors."
Probably quite different from what you perceive if you have missed
this part of my post (should be quoted in my previous post).
tyy...@hkstar.com
Tube collection is very different from HiFi. But as King said, when I
"completed" my collection on the common tubes, I will move to the uncommon
tubes and this will take a long time as the real old 'pre-war" tubes are
extremely difficult to find.
Tim
N C Ong
>
> >
> >How do Skoda owners warm their windscreen during winter? Ans: they put
> >their hands on to the darn thing.
> >
> >Nic
>
> No, they take the windscreen down
>
it?
Nic
Andy KONG
<nico...@2001netvigator.com> wrote:
So you need to warm it AFTER you take the windscreen down?