FLORES Informal Post #1: Demons

[Jasmine]

(reposting w/my last name, sorry!)

I'm wondering if anyone was as fascinated as I was reading Brown, pp. 65-66 regarding demons. Let me quote:

"In polytheist belief, the lower ranks of gods had been treated as ambivalent, moody creatures, capable of being spiteful and manipulable on some occasions and generous and powerful on others. Christians developed this division of the gods in a more radical direction. They ascribed to all gods without exception the unreliable qualities of the lowest gods.

"These lower gods had usually been spoken of by polytheists as daimones, as invisible, intermediary beings. To Christians, all gods were "demons," in the sense with which we still use the word "demon." They were not just touchy. They were evil. Christians never denied the existence of the gods. Rather, they treated all gods, even the highest, as malevolent and unreliable."

And then he goes on to talk about how exorcisms were a common practice in the early church. Later he talks about how most early Christians worshiped God as the 'highest' God, but still held onto superstitions about the demons/lower gods. They simply lumped God together with the gods. 

I think I have two questions:

1. Regarding what I bolded: Is it right theology or right evangelism to not dispute the existence of other gods, but simply present God as being above them all? Or is it important to establish God as being the one only true God? 

Even the apostle Paul, when he entered a certain city and saw a tribute to an unknown god among the other tributes to gods never bothered to deny their existence, but simply sought to teach the people about the God they did not yet know. I'm thinking specifically now of India. I've studied Indian History and Hinduism religion as well as gone on a missions trip to India. For the most part, many Christians there do exactly this - put God together with their gods (but on a higher level) and it takes many exorcisms and smashing of idols before God is set apart as unique. 

2. Regarding exorcisms: although the early church took it for granted that this would be an important function for them, why is it that the American church today doesn't engage in or train their congregation to perform exorcisms? (At least, not the mainstream.) Unless you come from a church which does normally do this type of ministry, I think the average Christian American would look on it as strange or at least suspicious. Where is the disconnect? I do not believe that the early church did such an amazing work of exorcism that there are no longer demons possessing people. (Just come to New York City! I'll show you a few possessed people right here!) So, why does the church at large no longer engage in this work? (Personally I believe it's important we do.) Is it because of the Enlightenment and the elevation of rationalist thought that we now relegate demon possession to psychosis? 

What do you all think? 

[Chris Schlect]

Hi Jasmine,

A few thoughts on this, which is more of a theological question than a historical one. (But it bears upon how we read some history, certainly.)

The Scriptures affirm the reality of many pagan deities. Though they may possess a splendor that, in some instances, exceeds that of humans, they are nonetheless created beings just as you, me, and the fly on the wall are created beings. As created beings they are subject to and even owe their sustenance and ongoing existence to the One True God. Compared to the God of Abraham, they are nothing. Compared to you and me, they are pretty impressive. Christ overcame them in the cross, and you and I have been raised in Christ far above "all principality and power and might and dominion," so we need not worry about them at all (cf. Ephesians 1:20-21 and 2:6).

One of the most interesting passages on topic is this: "⁴ Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. ⁵ For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), ⁶ yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (I Cor 8:4-6)

Here Paul acknowledges the existence of gods "in heaven or on earth", all the while ardently emphasizing the uniqueness of the true God: there is only one of Him; He has no rival, none compares with Him.

I have always thought of Jesus calming the storm as an example not of Jesus practicing hydrophysics; rather, Jesus is giving a stern command to Poseidon (or someone like that), who is bound to obey.

CR Schlect

[Jasmine]

Oooh! I like this: "I have always thought of Jesus calming the storm as an example not of Jesus practicing hydrophysics; rather, Jesus is giving a stern command to Poseidon (or someone like that), who is bound to obey." Very awesome!

Why don't Christians engage in this kind of warfare today?? =(

[Brian & Cara Bergeron]

Jasmine,

I think you would have had a lot more "fun" with this question last summer in our history of American Proteatantism class, where we had some in-depth chapters on witchcraft in colonial North America. My personal opinion is this: Bede and Boniface and Willibrord took it for granted that the demons would fly before the name of Jesus, and they did. We only read the deliciousness of the conquering narrative now. We don't see the sweat on Boniface's brow as he, perhaps with fear and trembling and certainly by gallons of real sweat and countless blisters, cut down the great oak. We no longer hear their groans as the demons attacked the missionaries' minds with fits of anxiety, in vengeance which was "small" in that it was only temporary. It did not feel small to them. But,compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ, they might have gritted their teeth and said with Bede's English peasant returned from the dead, "I have known it colder." Ultimately the European missionaries were gloriously victorious, and that is all we want to remember. It is all that they themselves supply because, as in the case of Bede, their goal was to exalt Christ and not their own personal experience of demons or deliverance. In a similar way, witchcraft in America died out and/or was forced underground, which, to our unaccustomed ears, makes the witch trials seem "made up" in the minds of overly conscientious Puritans without a solid grip on reality. We read the accounts with disbelief because we do not see such paranormal danger in our own day. But, as I mentioned in another post, Jim Jordan reminded me recently that we take too much for granted. Where Christ has conquered and Satan has been driven to less obvious tactics, historians and the rest of us rationalists tend to scoff. We cannot fathom that an event which would never seem possible in our own day may have been theologically and historically real and necessary in the 7th century, or the 17th century. The narratives of several personal friends who serve in India reminds me often of the reality of demonic activities in lands not yet penetrated and conquered by the gospel. One particularly close friend--a Christian sister, missionary, and doctrinal powerhouse of a brain and heart--was held "hostage" by an Indian goddess/demon for months. She was kept under a cloud of depression, experienced humiliating physical attacks of choking and demonic voices speaking through her during Christian worship services, and was physically sickened almost to the point of death so that she and her family have returned to the U.S. temporarily. She is not even remotely psychotic; in fact, she would easily fit into these class discussions, but the modern American religious establishment, on the whole, does not know what to make of her. Fortunately, our pastor does, and he was able to recommend a fellow Presbyterian pastor in this country who still believes in the power of Jesus Christ to address all sorts of demonic oppression and possession. There are a few people, usually the ones in the toughest "trenches," who have retained this vital knowledge of navigating the painful baby steps historically and theologically from Old Saxon paganism to orthodox Christianity, or from the cult of Sheva to Christendom. The rest of us are just relieved to accept the happy narrative as we find it written by the triumphalist historian or hagiographer, purged of most of its doubt, uncertainty, and "almost didn'ts."

Cara

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 14, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Jasmine <kupe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oooh! I like this: "I have always thought of Jesus calming the storm as an example not of Jesus practicing hydrophysics; rather, Jesus is giving a stern command to Poseidon (or someone like that), who is bound to obey." Very awesome!

Why don't Christians engage in this kind of warfare today?? =(

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[Jasmine]

Agreed. I feel like too many Christians in America have lost the sense/knowledge of the true power of Christ to defeat the Kingdom of satan. Sigh.

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[Cara Bergeron]

What doesn't become part of the liturgy of our day, our week, our year (think of Bede's emphasis on the importance of a Christian way of marking time) no longer seems real to us. That said, I don't believe that Christ's triumph over demons should necessarily become a part of our liturgies. That seems like giving too much importance to demons and not enough importance to Christ. Ultimately, Mr. Schlect is right that demons, gods, goddesses, fairies, and aliens are all bound to obey the proven power of Christ. In that way they're "inconsequential." I'm not sure what I think about liturgizing the conquering of something inconsequential. Anyone else?

[Chris Schlect]

Liturgizing Christ's triumph over spiritual powers? Asaph wrote Psalm 82, which would seem to be liturgizing. Perhaps you're getting at something different than this? How about St. Patrick's breastplate:

 http://openhymnal.org/Pdf/I_Bind_Unto_Myself_Today-St_Patricks_Breastplate.pdf

CRS

[Jasmine]

I strongly disagree they're inconsequential if they hold the hearts & minds of people captive. I think it should be a regular part of our ministry. It was for Christ.

[Cara Bergeron]

Okay, that is too weird. Because, no sooner did I press "send" on that post than I thought to myself, "Isn't your favorite hymn the Lorica?" I guess I just meant that we shouldn't focus on the demon question too long, or it could take our focus off of Christ. But that's true of just about anything. Now I'm inspired to pray Psalm 82 for my friend who has been so tormented this past year.

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[Cara Bergeron]

I don't mean "inconsequential" in the short run. Those whose hearts and minds are captive to demons have enormous hurdles which prevent all positive movement. It's just that the kingdom of God is so near. Just over the hurdle. I should have watched my words more carefully and said "powerless"--in the face of Christ, who reaches over the hurdle when we are powerless to even to see over it. Not for those still under the power of demons, but for those who've been delivered from the power of demons, the forces of darkness become inconsequential in their lives because Christ banishes them entirely. They no longer have sway.They're left behind the hurdle because God has limited them. They must obey the One who is greater. Other practices, beliefs, and liturgies can and must gain in importance. Ridding someone of demons, such as the Roman missionaries did for the Saxons, was foremost and fundamental to the Christianization of that people, but it was not the goal. Growth in grace became the new goal. Once they worked past demons, other issues (literacy, eucharistic teaching, Christian disciplines such as prayer and worship, building churches) became the consequential items. They could then pray the full complement of the Psalms and liturgize other practices. I'm not implying that, once we're delivered from darkness, we ought to skip Psalm 82 or to stop singing St. Patrick's Breastplate (the Lorica), but just that those become an admixture with a host of additional necessary liturgies so that we can grow up into Christ.

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[Jasmine]

I wonder though if they really "worked past demons" and basically just moved on to what they thought was important or if there was a sudden shift in thinking that made them leave it all behind? I don't see our work with demons being done til Christ returns because satan is still the 'ruler of the air.' I wonder if demons went the way of charismatic gifts: philosophized and psychoanalyzed to death - literally - until believers became convinced neither were real. 

But, thanks for clearing up what you meant!

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