Fwd: FW: [HighPlainsDrafters] Residual Alkalinity in Amarillo Water

[DnBu...@aol.com]

I didn't originally get Nick's response to this so I wanted to forward this in case the rest of the group failed to receive it as well. If you already seen this, my apology.

 

Michael, could you add Nick's email address to the group? Thanks.

Dennis

 

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From: nfl...@mail.wtamu.edu
To: DnBu...@aol.com
Sent: 10/17/2013 8:44:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: FW: [HighPlainsDrafters] Residual Alkalinity in Amarillo Water

 

________________________________________
From: Flynn, Nick E.
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:19 PM
To: high-plain...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [HighPlainsDrafters] Residual Alkalinity in Amarillo Water

Hello,

I would be a little hesitant to use alkalinity values from a database because that assumes that all things are equal with regard to water source. If you are using well water or, like many brewers do, a mix of distilled/well/municipal your alkalinity could be different. It’s best to have your water source(s) tested or use a test kit to determine it.

Ions, including metal, polyatomic, etc. can definitely affect pH as well as the flavor of beer once it is brewed.

Undesirable tannin extraction is actually due to a combination of both pH and temperature. Technically speaking, both of these will have an effect on the solubility of the tannins in your beer.

If your beer tastes like you forgot to rinse after gargling with mouthwash you have managed to come up with a pH/temperature combo that resulted in tannin extraction. For that reason I would suggest the 170 sparge temperature unless you are working with water that you know the actual RA and pH of, but even then the lower temperature is better in my opinion.

Finally, you want to avoid making generalizations about the effect of crystal malts, etc. on pH since every beer formulation is going to be different.

Nick

PS On a totally different subject, did you all know that at one time Anheuser Busch was producing enough spent grains to feed ~5% of the dairy cows in the US. Beer, it does a body good.

From: DnBu...@aol.com [mailto:DnBu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:04 PM
To: high-plain...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Flynn, Nick E.
Subject: Re: [HighPlainsDrafters] Residual Alkalinity in Amarillo Water

You sound like you have read more into it than I have. What I understand is that there is "stranger/danger" with temps above 170 (which could be your 180). I understand that grain husks interacting with different minerals in the water [normally] bring the mash into the proper range. Whether crystal/carmel malts do this more significantly, I have no idea. I have a friend who is a chemist who can probably answer this much better than me. I will forward this to him. He recently joined the homebrew club so he needs to get these emails any way. What says you, Nick?

In a message dated 10/16/2013 4:21:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, colinth...@gmail.com<mailto:colinth...@gmail.com> writes:
Dennis, two notes to your reply:

1) I have read that sparge water temps above 180 are the danger zone for tannin extraction, not above 170, which is the temp I target for sparging.
2) From what I've read, crystal malts have a more significant effect on lowering PH when interacting with Ca and Mg; that is, per pound of crystal VS roasted malts, the crystal malts will work with Ca and Mg to lower the PH more significantly.  The process is not linear in other words.

Anybody else use the Bru'n Water spreadsheet tool for water adjustments?

Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:13 PM, <DnBu...@aol.com<mailto:DnBu...@aol.com>> wrote:
Usually grains will bring  Ph into the proper range for a mash (5.2 to 5.4). What I pay attention to is my sparge water which I correct with Phosphoric Acid and bring down to 5.8 or lower. According to "Brewing Better Beer" we risk stripping tannins from the grain if our sparge Ph is higher than 6.0 or the temperature is above 170. I normally dilute my well water with Water Still distilled water about 50/50 for beer with roasted malts and 70% distilled/ 30% well water for beers without roasted malt. I will also add calcium chloride to the mash to add additional calcium due to the loss of calcium from diluting.

In a message dated 10/16/2013 1:54:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, soto...@gmail.com<mailto:soto...@gmail.com> writes:

Heh. Hoppy beers.  Autocorrect always gets me on that one.
On Oct 16, 2013 1:51 PM, "Colin Cummings" <colinth...@gmail.com<mailto:colinth...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Happy beers?  Aren't they all happy?

Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:50 PM, John Soto <soto...@gmail.com<mailto:soto...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This is why I use half city water and half RO water for my pales or happy beers.
On Oct 16, 2013 1:34 PM, "Colin Cummings" <colinth...@gmail.com<mailto:colinth...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Anyone familiar with the concept of residual alkalinity (RA) in brewing water chemistry?  I have a spreadsheet from Bru'n Water with all kinds of info and handy calculators for adjusting water chemistry, and the concept of RA is specific to brewing and refers to a kind of adjusted alkalinity that takes into account cations that affect PH (calcium, magnesium) and Bicarbonate.  There is a formula to figure RA, and basically some RA ranges are better for pale beers (-50 to +50) and anything above +50 is better for dark beers.  So for example, the RA of Dublin's water (where dry Irish stout was born) is 170.  The RA for Pilsen (where Pilsner was born) is 5.

As it happens, Amarillo's calculated RA according to Bru'n Water is -1.  Go figure, right?  I've assumed that our water is way too hard to brew pale beers, but if you just add a little crystal malt you can hit the right PH pretty easily.  The problem with our water is actually Na and Cl, which combined with high sulfates produce harsh flavors.

I find all of this fascinating as a brewer.

Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX
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[Colin Cummings]

But the effect of crystal malts on the pH when compared to the effect of roasted malts on pH is a generalization anyway, one that happens to be accurate.  Everything I've read indicates that crystal malts have a greater effect on lowering pH in conjunction with Ca and Mg than roasted malts per pound of grain.  That's the only point I'm making.  Obviously each recipe affects this differently, which is why I use a program like Bru'n Water, which has built in formulas for these variances.

Cheers,

Colin Cummings
Amarillo, TX

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