Thought experiment

[HRM Resident]

In the 1990s the RCMP told me they could read data on magnetic disks
that had been overwritten up to 6-7 times by mathematical analysis of the
platters because there are residual “bits” of ever decreasing strength
magnetic flux from previous files. Likely now they could go farther back,
as algorithms and electronic sensors improve.

This started me pondering sound. Off and on over the years, I would
wonder, “As sounds fade in intensity, does every minuscule portion
disappear forever?” If not, with a sensitive enough “microphone” and
complex algorithms, could we detect sound from a second ago? A minute ago?
Yesterday? Last month? 25 years ago?

Is there a law in physics that says we can’t “hear” the past, and if
not, might it be possible to hear ourselves (or anyone else) talking from
our youth? It’s not time travel, but hearing our parents talking in 1960
would be astonishing.

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

Sound waves dissipate by an inverse square law with distance. Eventually
it will fall below the noise level of atoms jostling with each other.
Also, once a sound wave passes by it won't be coming back so that you
could hear it again. Sorry, it's physics. :)

[Mike Spencer]

James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

> Sound waves dissipate by an inverse square law with
> distance. Eventually it will fall below the noise level of atoms
> jostling with each other. Also, once a sound wave passes by it
> won't be coming back so that you could hear it again. Sorry, it's
> physics. :)

Yes. To address the original thought, sound is an *event*, not a
thing. It's similar in that way to a candle flame or a mind -- an
event. The bits on a platter, OTOH, are embodied as the enduring
physical state of a (constellation of miniscule) physical object(s).

Of course, if you're a believer in homeopathic remedies, you believe
that water has memory of substances that were formerly dissolve in
(some of) it. It's a promising notion that one might be able to
extend to an even less rational one: stuff upon which sound has at one
time impinged "remembers" the sounds -- carries an enduring
representation of past sound events. You just have to detect, decode
and amplify it.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[HRM Resident]

Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>


>snip<

>
> Of course, if you're a believer in homeopathic remedies, you believe
> that water has memory of substances that were formerly dissolve in
> (some of) it. It's a promising notion that one might be able to
> extend to an even less rational one: stuff upon which sound has at one
> time impinged "remembers" the sounds -- carries an enduring
> representation of past sound events. You just have to detect, decode
> and amplify it.
>

No, I don’t think melted ice (water) remembers its solid form! :-) And
I too dismissed the sound exists for decades idea many times, but I
constantly revisit it. No doubt Einstein had a lot of weird thought
experiments he never vocalized because he realized they didn’t make sense
after careful consideration.

I, too, considered that a sound is an event, whilst magnetic fields on
platters are things that get weaker and weaker as they are overwritten
multiple times until they fade into the noise. That said, since I was told
in the 1990s technology could read data overwritten 6-7 times, all of my
discarded disks are wiped by software that overwrites them 10 times. Then
I drive a chisel through them in 3-4 places before taking them to the
recycling depot. I don’t want someone reconstructing these crazy
conversations I am part of! :-)

Let’s assume a sound is an event that causes a wave to propagate and
dissipate, as James says- inverse square. Does it leave a trace of
vibration on objects? Can this be detected? Maybe only for a second, or
even a millisecond or microsecond. If it can, then is whatever detects it
“hearing” the past? James opined that it dissipates to the point where
even at the molecular level and/or the atomic/subatomic level, there’s
nothing left. I don’t disagree.

However, might there be something left behind that technology we do not
have today would detect sometime in the future? Reconstruction of a
conversation had yesterday from such residual traces of something would be
a huge breakthrough. Maybe I have weird ideas, but so did Galileo, Newton,
Einstein, etc. I am not one-millionth as bright as those guys, but most
scientific breakthroughs come from oddball ideas initially dismissed as
nonsense. That’s why I called this thread a thought experiment.

No, I am not in the same category as Al Smith, James! :-)

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

LOL. Good luck with than. Entropy is not on your side. Eventually
the whole universe will fade into chaos.

[HRM Resident]

James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> wrote:


>snip<

>
> LOL. Good luck with than. Entropy is not on your side. Eventually
> the whole universe will fade into chaos.
>

Entropy suggests you and I ought not to exist, but here we are! :-)

That’s the current theory (the universe will come to an equilibrium of
nothing but random particles bouncing around chaotically for infinity.)

Whenever you figure out what DM/DE is, maybe another theory will
replace the current “end of everything will be chaos” theory. :-)

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

Perhaps this is good idea for a sci-fi movie. Try pitching it to
a film maker in Hollywood. :)

[James Warren]

On 2022-01-19 10:19 AM, HRM Resident wrote:
> James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >snip<
>
>
>>
>> LOL. Good luck with than. Entropy is not on your side. Eventually
>> the whole universe will fade into chaos.
>>
>
> Entropy suggests you and I ought not to exist, but here we are! :-)

No it doesn't. The earth is not a closed system. It receives energy
from the sun. But eventually the sun will decay and the earth with it.

>
> That’s the current theory (the universe will come to an equilibrium of
> nothing but random particles bouncing around chaotically for infinity.)

There won't be much bouncing. Particles will be too far apart to
interact very much if particles will still exist. Perhaps all
particles will decay into photons whose wavelength will increase to
infinity,
and their energy decrease to 0 as the universe expands to infinity.

>
> Whenever you figure out what DM/DE is, maybe another theory will
> replace the current “end of everything will be chaos” theory. :-)
>

DM/DE will not change the law of entropy.

[HRM Resident]

On 2022-01-19 11:24 a.m., James Warren wrote:


>snip<

>
> DM/DE will not change the law of entropy.

Light waves travel through ether, too. Even though there is no
ether, it doesn't change the believe of some that it must because the
KNOW waves need a medium to propagate through. Do you believe ether
exists (not the chemical kind, the 1800s kind.)

Unrelated, I ran across another anti-vaxxer a few days ago. A dude
almost 80. A Trump supporter who's hiding from the IRS in NS as a
Permanent Resident. Anyhow, he said they'd need to send two big apes to
hold he and his wife down to get ANY vaccine into him (even the flu.)

I used your idea and asked him what happened to polio and smallpox.
I'm awaiting a reply. But he's originally from New Jersey with a
Grade 11 education, so I suspect I'll get a hateful blast of nonsense. :-)

Maybe I'll take up mocking fools like him if I run out of other
things to do. Not a lot of interest in arguing with idiots, but maybe
boredom will help me see the light in that venue of entertainment. My
instinct is to ignore him and his ilk.

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

On 2022-01-19 11:45 AM, HRM Resident wrote:
> On 2022-01-19 11:24 a.m., James Warren wrote:
>
>
>       >snip<
>
>
>>
>> DM/DE will not change the law of entropy.
>
>     Light waves travel through ether, too.  Even though there is no
> ether, it doesn't change the believe of some that it must because the
> KNOW waves need a medium to propagate through.  Do you believe ether
> exists (not the chemical kind, the 1800s kind.)

It's comforting to "know" things even without evidence. :)

>
>     Unrelated, I ran across another anti-vaxxer a few days ago.  A dude
> almost 80.  A Trump supporter who's hiding from the IRS in NS as a
> Permanent Resident.  Anyhow, he said they'd need to send two big apes to
> hold he and his wife down to get ANY vaccine into him (even the flu.)
>
>     I used your idea and asked him what happened to polio and smallpox.
>  I'm awaiting a reply.  But he's originally from New Jersey with a
> Grade 11 education, so I suspect I'll get a hateful blast of nonsense. :-)
>
>     Maybe I'll take up mocking fools like him if I run out of other
> things to do.  Not a lot of interest in arguing with idiots, but maybe
> boredom will help me see the light in that venue of entertainment.  My
> instinct is to ignore him and his ilk.
>

Only mock from a safe distance. We still value your contributions
to hfx.general. :)

[HRM Resident]

On 2022-01-19 12:15 p.m., James Warren wrote:

>
> It's comforting to "know" things even without evidence. :)
>

I know nothing about ether other than we used it as a solvent and
~ pre-1960 it was used as an anesthetic. At least my mother told me her
surgery in the late 1940s was performed using ether, and she said that
was worse than the operation!

Do you know anything about the kind of ether science claimed was
necessary to propagate light waves in the 1800s? When did they decide
light was both a particle and a wave, and therefore delete ether? Where
did it go? In the recycle bin? Can we get it back? :-) It might be
useful someday.

>
> Only mock from a safe distance. We still value your contributions
> to hfx.general. :)
>

He's 80, and lately, he's afraid to go outside because "they" are
watching. Sends his wife for groceries. All he has is email and some way
of stealing FOX "news" with a satellite. He doesn't know what Usenet is.
His wife bought him a smartphone 5-6 years ago, and he can't be taught
how to use it. I know how to get him going if I want, but why push
buttons when it does no good? We were friends for 20+ years until he
sent me endless pro-Trump propaganda in 2014-2015.

I told him to cut out the politics, and he upped the quantity. His
mistake was bragging about his brand new MADE IN DETROIT Ford truck. I
asked him for the serial and model number. He stupidly gave it to me,
and I found out in 5 minutes it was assembled in Mexico. He really
didn't like that, especially since I told him it would be hard to get
parts across the wall. He and I now exchange emails about once a year.
Getting his upset is sort of like pulling the wings off of houseflies! :-)

You'd have a ball with him! :-)

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

On 2022-01-19 1:45 PM, HRM Resident wrote:
> On 2022-01-19 12:15 p.m., James Warren wrote:
>
>>
>> It's comforting to "know" things even without evidence. :)
>>
>
>      I know nothing about ether other than we used it as a solvent and
> ~ pre-1960 it was used as an anesthetic. At least my mother told me her
> surgery in the late 1940s was performed using ether, and she said that
> was worse than the operation!
>
>     Do you know anything about the kind of ether science claimed was
> necessary to propagate light waves in the 1800s?  When did they decide
> light was both a particle and a wave, and therefore delete ether?  Where
> did it go?  In the recycle bin?  Can we get it back? :-)  It might be
> useful someday.

If virtual particles exist then the sea of them might function as
the ether.

>
>>
>> Only mock from a safe distance. We still value your contributions
>> to hfx.general. :)
>>
>
>
>    He's 80, and lately, he's afraid to go outside because "they" are
> watching. Sends his wife for groceries. All he has is email and some way
> of stealing FOX "news" with a satellite. He doesn't know what Usenet is.
> His wife bought him a smartphone 5-6 years ago, and he can't be taught
> how to use it. I know how to get him going if I want, but why push
> buttons when it does no good? We were friends for 20+ years until he
> sent me endless pro-Trump propaganda in 2014-2015.
>
>    I told him to cut out the politics, and he upped the quantity. His
> mistake was bragging about his brand new MADE IN DETROIT Ford truck. I
> asked him for the serial and model number. He stupidly gave it to me,
> and I found out in 5 minutes it was assembled in Mexico. He really
> didn't like that, especially since I told him it would be hard to get
> parts across the wall. He and I now exchange emails about once a year.
> Getting his upset is sort of like pulling the wings off of houseflies! :-)

I remember that. :)

it's probably best to leave poor dumb buggers alone if they're harmless.

>
>    You'd have a ball with him! :-)
>

No fun. He can't fight back. :)

[HRM Resident]

On 2022-01-19 3:25 p.m., James Warren wrote:

>
> No fun. He can't fight back. :)
>

True. He's pathetic. I had my yearly fun with him. You'd have
him on the floor as a babbling idiot in a day or two. And, I don't know
if one can glue wings back on flies! Never tried. :-)

--
HRM Resident

[HRM Resident]

On 2022-01-19 3:25 p.m., James Warren wrote:

>snip<

>> Getting him upset is sort of like pulling the wings off of houseflies!

>> :-)
>
> I remember that. :)
>
> it's probably best to leave poor dumb buggers alone if they're harmless.
>

House flies are supposed to be dirty things, and luckily we have
very few here now. As a kid I did "de-wing" a couple, but I felt sort
of bad afterwards, so I didn't anymore. We only whacked them with a
flyswatter or a rolled up newspaper if they got around the food. That's
the key. Keep the food in the fridge or in plastic containers and they
forage elsewhere.

On the other hand, those big flies (forget if they were the horse
or moose flies) used to bite me a lot. Especially when picking berries.
My revenge? Catch a few alive and stick them into spider's webs . . .
let the spiders take care of them. The spiders were my hit men! :-) I
never felt any guilt about that. :-)

--
HRM Resident

[James Warren]

We were all little devils, weren't we? :)