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James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 9:10:42 AM12/5/22
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Krister Sundelin

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What are some good arguments against atheism?


Q: What are some good arguments against atheism?


A: First, consider the definition of “atheism”:


atheism (noun) the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of
God or gods


– Oxford English Dictionary


Now, present that instead of saying “I am an atheist”, I expand on
the word using the definition above and say “I do not believe in gods,
including the capital G God.”


How do you argue against that statement?


Let me illustrate your difficulty with an analogy – and please note
that I do not make this analogy to insult your religion, but to illustrate
the difficulty of using arguments against atheism. Are we totally
clear about that? Good. Remember that before you spit your coffee
and hammer an all-caps reply of how much I insulted your religion
when you read the analogy below.


Now go watch a Christmas movie. Anyone will do, except Die Hard, Home
Alone and Lethal Weapon. Think about the message and then come back.

Did you get the message?


No, it is not about the holiday spirit, keeping the family together,
believing will make your wishes come true, or anything like that.
The message is simply this:


It takes seeing a bearded, red-dressed, chimney-jumping jolly fat
man going ho-ho-ho from a flying sleigh pulled by magic reindeer to
make a sane adult person believe in Santa.


Arguments will not work. Books about Santa will not work. “Where did
the presents come from, hmm?” doesn’t work. The disappearance of milk
and cookies will not work. The only thing that works is actually seeing
a Santa.


Atheism is the same. Arguments from cosmology and ontology are basically
word salads trying to define gods into existence. Arguments from beauty,
intelligence, design, morality etc are just inability to think outside
the box. Holy books are just unsubstantiated claims. And so on. So
the only thing which will work is actually showing us a god.

It doesn’t have to be yours.

HRM Resident

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Dec 5, 2022, 10:05:05 AM12/5/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Arguments will not work. Books about Santa will not work.

>snip<

> Holy books are just unsubstantiated claims. And so on. So
> the only thing which will work is actually showing us a god.
>
> It doesn’t have to be yours.
>

Something wrong with you? When did anyone on here try to tell you
there was a god, to give up atheism, or the like? Seems to me you are
arguing against something that hasn't been done to you! Who tried to
get you to join some religion? Not me. I don't give a darn what you
believe. :-)

--
HRM Resident

James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 10:42:09 AM12/5/22
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So you agree with my post. Great! :)
Yes it doesn't matter much but it is an interesting thing to discuss.

But you did imply that you believe in souls, spirits or ghosts (holy ones). :)
And you aren't sure about gods. You didn't say whether your "not knowing"
was at the 50/50 level or the .999999999/.000000001 level. Curious minds
want to know. :)

>
> --
> HRM Resident

Mike Spencer

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Dec 5, 2022, 11:59:46 AM12/5/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

> Now go watch a Christmas movie. Anyone will do, except Die Hard, Home
> Alone and Lethal Weapon. Think about the message and then come back.

Poor selection. I recommend y'all watch Hogfather (2-part, made for
Brit TV) movies this year.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 12:07:00 PM12/5/22
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Sounds like fun.

This two-part adaptation of Terry Pratcfhett's novel of the same name is set in the semimedieval, but strangely familiar, Discworld. The titular Hogfather, the jolly fat man who delivers Christmas presents to kids at the midwinter festival of Hogswatch, has gone missing. But the presents must still be delivered, or else the sun won't rise tomorrow. Another supernatural entity who can be everywhere at once and knows where everybody lives decides to fill in for the Hogfather - Death, who thinks it may work with a false beard and some cushions. While he's climbing down chimneys, his granddaughter, Susan, must find out what has happened to the real Hogfather.
Initial release: December 17, 2006
Director: Vadim Jean
Narrated by: Ian Richardson
Network: Sky One
Distributed by: Nikkatsu
Adapted from: Hogfather

HRM Resident

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Dec 5, 2022, 12:42:29 PM12/5/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> So you agree with my post. Great! :)
> Yes it doesn't matter much but it is an interesting thing to discuss.
>
> But you did imply that you believe in souls, spirits or ghosts (holy ones). :)
> And you aren't sure about gods. You didn't say whether your "not knowing"
> was at the 50/50 level or the .999999999/.000000001 level. Curious minds
> want to know. :)
>

I implied nothing. You inferred a lot. Look up imply and infer in
your dictionary. They are different.

What post did I agree with? I am curious.

Now you want a number on "I don't know." Like those polls that are
always wrong, but say stupid things like "This is right 19 times out of
20 plus or minus 5%. Unless we really blow it. Then it's rigged."

Not everything runs on probability and statistics, old boy! :-)

--
HRM Resident

James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 1:27:33 PM12/5/22
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On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 13:42:29 UTC-4, HRM Resident wrote:
> James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > So you agree with my post. Great! :)
> > Yes it doesn't matter much but it is an interesting thing to discuss.
> >
> > But you did imply that you believe in souls, spirits or ghosts (holy ones). :)
> > And you aren't sure about gods. You didn't say whether your "not knowing"
> > was at the 50/50 level or the .999999999/.000000001 level. Curious minds
> > want to know. :)
> >
> I implied nothing. You inferred a lot. Look up imply and infer in
> your dictionary. They are different.
>
> What post did I agree with? I am curious.
>
> Now you want a number on "I don't know."

Yeah, it's a reasonable ask.

> Like those polls that are
> always wrong, but say stupid things like "This is right 19 times out of
> 20 plus or minus 5%.

Not stupid. Things you do not understand are not stupid.

> Unless we really blow it. Then it's rigged."
>
> Not everything runs on probability and statistics, old boy! :-)

Actually it does, pal. :)

>
> --
> HRM Resident

HRM Resident

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Dec 5, 2022, 2:39:54 PM12/5/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Yeah, it's a reasonable ask.
>

Just like it's reasonable to ask where did the BB spec come from.
The answer is the same. "I don't know." I an even say I 100%
don't know. Not a clue, and not even a guess.

>
> Not stupid. Things you do not understand are not stupid.
>

It's stupid to keep doing somehting that gives the wrong answer.
It's smart to put a sentence at the end as an exit ramp when it
never works.

>> Not everything runs on probability and statistics, old boy! :-)
>
> Actually it does, pal. :)
>

They brainwashed you at Dal! Oh well . . . it's what they do well. :-)

--
HRM Resident

James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 2:46:08 PM12/5/22
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On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 15:39:54 UTC-4, HRM Resident wrote:
> James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Yeah, it's a reasonable ask.
> >
> Just like it's reasonable to ask where did the BB spec come from.

Yes it is.

> The answer is the same. "I don't know."

That is true.

> I an even say I 100%
> don't know. Not a clue, and not even a guess.

Not quite true. There are hypotheses.

> >
> > Not stupid. Things you do not understand are not stupid.
> >
> It's stupid to keep doing somehting that gives the wrong answer.

Like what, for example?

> It's smart to put a sentence at the end as an exit ramp when it
> never works.

Eh?

> >> Not everything runs on probability and statistics, old boy! :-)
> >
> > Actually it does, pal. :)
> >
> They brainwashed you at Dal! Oh well . . . it's what they do well. :-)

I learned my lessons well! BTW I kept learning even when
classes were over. :)

>
> --
> HRM Resident

HRM Resident

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Dec 5, 2022, 3:20:11 PM12/5/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Not quite true. There are hypotheses.
>

There are lots of hypotheses about many things. Some might be
right and some might be wrong. I'm 100% sure the BB spec didn't
appear out of nothing and create everything. That's as stupid as
saying God created the universe in 6 days, and then took a day off
to drink beer and watch his creations. What a bunch of nonsense. :-)

>
> I learned my lessons well! BTW I kept learning even when
> classes were over. :)
>

It's hard to unlearn things that have been beat into you. Like all
cult members. You might escape. :-)

--
HRM Resident

James Warren

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Dec 5, 2022, 4:41:15 PM12/5/22
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On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 16:20:11 UTC-4, HRM Resident wrote:
> James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Not quite true. There are hypotheses.
> >
> There are lots of hypotheses about many things. Some might be
> right and some might be wrong. I'm 100% sure the BB spec didn't
> appear out of nothing and create everything.

I'm not sure. IN Quantum theory "specs" a[[ear and disappear out
of nothing all the time. The uncertainty principle in one form
states that deltaE*deltaT > hbar. In an infinite universe a deltaE
large enough to create a universe in certain to occur. Also, a
universe and anti-universe with deltaE=0 can result in an
infinite duration universe and anti-universe. Another idea is
that the universe is cyclic with each BB being the result of
the collapse of a preceding universe. There are other ideas to.

BTW you can be certain of this but not of god or no god. What
singles out the "spec" for certainty. :)

> That's as stupid as
> saying God created the universe in 6 days, and then took a day off
> to drink beer and watch his creations. What a bunch of nonsense. :-)

I agree! But you don't know, do you? :)

> >
> > I learned my lessons well! BTW I kept learning even when
> > classes were over. :)
> >
> It's hard to unlearn things that have been beat into you. Like all
> cult members. You might escape. :-)

Escape would be a great error. I would be escaping in foolishness,
mysticism and delusions. :)

>
> --
> HRM Resident

HRM Resident

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Dec 6, 2022, 9:39:52 AM12/6/22
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James Warren <jwwar...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> What singles out the "spec" for certainty. :)
>

It's the backbone of your religion. According to your church of
perpetual motion, one day nothing was bored and decide to turn into
a spec. But, by golly, this tiny speck got bored after awhile and
decided to blow up. So it did. And everything that exists,
including the 95% we can't detect in any way but claim is there,
came from the spec. So the solution to everything (according to
your church of perpetual motion) is:

nothing ==> spec ==> everything

What an elegant scientist you are! :-) Why didn't Einstein or
Hawking thing of this? :-)

--
HRM Resident

James Warren

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Dec 6, 2022, 10:02:11 AM12/6/22
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LOL They did! :)
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