Passengers face delays at Halifax airport
Ice Age
Might be a good idea for us all to make our own "No fly" list. A
simple one:
(1) USA
That would save a lot of grief for everyone.
Ice!
Best
"Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:016eb9e0$0$1776$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Richard Bonner
*** There'd still be cars, trucks, busses, ships, boats, trains...
Richard
Wayne Hines
But Brother Darrell has tied up the boat, the bus company is losing money
and wants to drop routes and there's only one train a day. How many
tourists can you get in a 53 foot trailer?
gwh
Best
"Richard Bonner" <ak...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:hh5ss7$njv$9...@Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca...
poor schedules. Ships - being quickly cancelled by the NDP government.
Boats - same thing. Trains - very difficult to get a train, only one per
day, and not every day.
Ice Age
> *You'd like to completely end the tourism business in Canada?
No, I'm just getting sick of being poked, prodded, X-rayed, asked
stupid questions like "Did some stranger pack your luggage?", felt up at
random (now always if you are traveling to the USA), knowing the next
step (already approved by Transport Canada)is full body scanners, etc.
I'm tired of taking a laptop out at airport security (why is a laptop a
threat?) I'm tired of not being able to take and liquids and gels with
me when I fly. I don't like people who have a poor understanding of
either of Canada's official languages rooting through my briefcase and
my wife's purse a airport security points.
I really am sorry that US foreign policy has caused a lot of nuts
to dislike them to the point of committing a terrorist act, but we
Canadians didn't have anything to do with it. I wish no one ill harm,
especially the USA. I am not a terrorist. I have been avoiding the USA
for over 5 years and will more than ever take the "long way around" to
continue to do so. If you want to feel unwelcome, fly into JFK, Logan
or Newark from Halifax. You don't have to have a name like "Umar Farouk
Abdulmutallab" or be dressed like an Arab. 80 year old, white haired
ladies named Ethel Smith get the same rude treatment.
Ice!
Al Smith
> Best wrote:
>> *You'd like to completely end the tourism business in Canada?
>
> No, I'm just getting sick of being poked, prodded, X-rayed, asked stupid
> questions like "Did some stranger pack your luggage?", felt up at random
> (now always if you are traveling to the USA), knowing the next step
> (already approved by Transport Canada)is full body scanners, etc. I'm
> tired of taking a laptop out at airport security (why is a laptop a
> threat?) I'm tired of not being able to take and liquids and gels with
> me when I fly. I don't like people who have a poor understanding of
> either of Canada's official languages rooting through my briefcase and
> my wife's purse a airport security points.
I was thinking about the subject of liquids on a plane the other day. It
wouldn't be difficult to take some flammable liquid into a passenger
plane, and improvise a Molotov cocktail. Just imagine the damage a
Molotov cocktail would do if it burst inside the passenger compartment
of a jetliner. Any really flammable liquid would do the trick, along
with a thin-walled glass vessel to hold it, and an improvised wick made
of a strip of cloth.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> I was thinking about the subject of liquids on a plane the other day. It
> wouldn't be difficult to take some flammable liquid into a passenger
> plane, and improvise a Molotov cocktail. Just imagine the damage a
> Molotov cocktail would do if it burst inside the passenger compartment
> of a jetliner. Any really flammable liquid would do the trick, along
> with a thin-walled glass vessel to hold it, and an improvised wick made
> of a strip of cloth.
>
> -Al-
>
You are only allowed 100 ml, Al. A 350 ml plastic bottle of maple
syrup that was a gift for an Ontario relative was taken from me in
Halifax because it was considered dangerous. I can't imagine how you
would get enough flammable liquid through security to make a "Molotov
cocktail." I'm sure the experts have thought of that.
I'm more interested in how Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab got some PETN
(pentaerythritol) through security. PETN is a high explosive and
nothing new, so one would think the airport sensors would detect that
and the airport screeners would be more concerned about it than maple syrup.
Ice!
demibee
> You are only allowed 100 ml, Al. A 350 ml plastic bottle of maple
> syrup that was a gift for an Ontario relative was taken from me in
> Halifax because it was considered dangerous. . .
Well, c'mon! You could get someone all sticky! ;)
> I can't imagine how you would get enough flammable liquid through
> security to make a "Molotov cocktail." I'm sure the experts have
> thought of that.
If four or five women (or men) brought on 100 mL bottles of facial toner
(essentially rubbing alcohol), that could add up to something dangerous.
Anything flammable really.
I think it comes down to the fact that people simply *can't* be as
protected as they'd like to be.
db
Al Smith
I wonder if there's a liquid that bursts into flame upon contact with
air? That would be a useful terrorist weapon. Throw it against a wall,
and whoosh!
-Al-
Al Smith
I bet there are chemicals more dangerous than alcohol, and probably not
that hard for a chemist to come up with. But massive, open flame in a
plane passenger section would certainly case an effect a terrorist would
relish. It would be just as effective as a bomb.
-Al-
JD
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:A5FZm.57424$Db2.5826@edtnps83...
I don't know of any that are hypergolic with air that are easily
transported. But there are a several liquids that are hypergolic with each
other. Most unpleasant to handle though.
James Warren
1. It would not likely bring down a plane. 2. You are now on the do not fly list.
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
Al Smith
Well, think about what would happen. The liquid would cover the wall of
the passenger cabin, the floor and some seats -- also several
passengers, probably. If it burned fiercely, it would fill the passenger
compartment with smoke. There may be some sort of automatic fire
suppressant ... I don't know about that. Maybe that would render such an
attack ineffectual. But if the fire was not put out, there would be
total panic -- screaming, fighting, running into first class of flaming
coach passengers, all the things the rich folk don't want when they fly.
I guess it would depend on the scope of the fire -- how large it was,
how long it burned -- as to how effective a technique it might be.
-Al-
demibee
> 1. It would not likely bring down a plane. 2. You are now on the do not
> fly list.
It'd work in a different way. CNN's been covering yet another "incident"
on a plane today. Seems some *cRaZy* passenger, who was sick, wanted to
go the the washroom during the new magic last hour of flight. He was
taken off as an unruly passenger and questioned by the FBI. They're just
now saying it was probably nothing. Plus, he was Nigerian, I think; so
that probably set off alarm bells right there. Some white guy from the
Midwest could probably have convinced the steward that he was just sick.
The terrorists, in this regard, HAVE WON. Plane travel is slowly becoming
an impossibly unpleasant thing to do.
db
James Warren
A few hundred ml of flammable liquid would certainly cause a panic but
it would not likely bring down a plane.
You are still on the no fly list.
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
Al Smith
Given the people who are actually committing the terrorist acts, I've be
a lot more concerned about a Nigerian than about a white guy from the
Midwest.
-Al-
Rob
> The terrorists, in this regard, HAVE WON.
I believe they'll slowly "bleed out" The West, financially.
Ice Age
>
> I believe they'll slowly "bleed out" The West, financially.
>
>
Tough being you then, isn't it?
Ice!
Rob
(I have a sneaking suspicion.) Why don't you tell me, Mr Age?
Ice Age
>
> (I have a sneaking suspicion.) Why don't you tell me, Mr Age?
Tell you what, Rob?
Ice!
Al Smith
> demibee wrote:
>
>> The terrorists, in this regard, HAVE WON.
>
>
> I believe they'll slowly "bleed out" The West, financially.
>
>
Only if the West continues to be run by evil retards.
-Al-
Rob
I thought you would offer at least a glimmer of hope.
JD
"Rob" <nos...@eastlink.ca> wrote in message
news:Ys%Zm.57517$Db2.54406@edtnps83...
When it comes to politics Al doesn't offer hope. He has said many times
that we are just trogs to be manipulated by the rich and powerful. There is
no hope; only servitude. It is all a grand conspiracy to keep us trogs in
line; from TV, to video games to the school system. We're doomed.
kozmo
elected by retards.
kozmo
so Al thinks we're mushrooms. kept in the dark and fed shit.
Brian Smith
Richard Bonner
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:49:11 +0000, Richard Bonner wrote:
> > Best (who...@noone.fr) wrote:
> >> "Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > Might be a good idea for us all to make our own "No fly" list. A
> >> > simple one:
> >> >
> >> > (1) USA
> >> > That would save a lot of grief for everyone.
> >> *You'd like to completely end the tourism business in Canada?
> >
> > *** There'd still be cars, trucks, busses, ships, boats, trains...
> >
> > Richard
> But Brother Darrell has tied up the boat, the bus company is losing money
> and wants to drop routes and there's only one train a day. How many
> tourists can you get in a 53 foot trailer?
> gwh
*** How many tourists come by car and cruise ship? It's obvious
that not enough are coming by The Cat or by bus if those services are
losing money.
Richard
Brian Smith
>
> *** How many tourists come by car and cruise ship? It's obvious
> that not enough are coming by The Cat or by bus if those services are
> losing money.
The Cat fare cost more than driving around the Bay of Fundy.
Ice Age
>
> elected by retards.
Only if they vote. I don't.
Ice!
Brian Smith
It sounds as if you are admitting to be a one of them.
James Warren
Hey. Keep an open mind. We can't dismiss any theory that just might be true. :)
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
kozmo
you're a retard would doesn't have the right to complain.
Ice Age
>
> It sounds as if you are admitting to be a one of them.
A politician? Never! Retarded. Who knows? Maybe. Does a crazy
man know he is crazy?
Ice!
Ice Age
>
> you're a retard would doesn't have the right to complain.
Whether or not I'm a retard is up for debate. Those who voted for
the politicians put them there. I had no hand in it. I have every
right to complain about them. The ones who put them there presumably
got what they wanted so ought not complain.
Ice!
kozmo
maybe the ones who voted for them aren't complaining in the first
place, you are.
Gordon
"Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00aa4cd4$0$8198$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
The right to complain because you voted, never did understand that
statement. What does it accomplish, did you vote for the right person, or
wrong, who got in, your guy our the other's. Just because you voted, do you
really have any more power after that, except whining like a little tootler?
What if you didn't vote and complained, does that mean you can't complain
with the same yum-yum's in this group? ;-)
Brian Smith
>
> A politician? Never! Retarded. Who knows? Maybe. Does a crazy
> man know he is crazy?
LOL! I wasn't referring to a politician. :^) I would say that a
crazy man would know that he is not all there.
Brian Smith
>
> Whether or not I'm a retard is up for debate. Those who voted for
> the politicians put them there. I had no hand in it. I have every
> right to complain about them. The ones who put them there presumably
> got what they wanted so ought not complain.
I am in full disagreement with you on this point. If you didn't care
enough to vote, you do not have any room to criticize or to complain.
Rick Walker
But if no one voted we'd have a dictatorship running the show. I'd rather
complain about something that I figure could be changed, rather than have a
dictatorship telling me "You have no choice, so stop complaining."
(I get enough of that at home!) :-)
Al Smith
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:32:10 GMT, Al Smith<inv...@address.com>
> wrote:
>
>> demibee wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:36:25 -0400, James Warren wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. It would not likely bring down a plane. 2. You are now on the do not
>>>> fly list.
>>>
>>> It'd work in a different way. CNN's been covering yet another "incident"
>>> on a plane today. Seems some *cRaZy* passenger, who was sick, wanted to
>>> go the the washroom during the new magic last hour of flight. He was
>>> taken off as an unruly passenger and questioned by the FBI. They're just
>>> now saying it was probably nothing. Plus, he was Nigerian, I think; so
>>> that probably set off alarm bells right there. Some white guy from the
>>> Midwest could probably have convinced the steward that he was just sick.
>>>
>>> The terrorists, in this regard, HAVE WON. Plane travel is slowly becoming
>>> an impossibly unpleasant thing to do.
>>>
>>>
>>> db
>>
>>
>> Given the people who are actually committing the terrorist acts, I've be
>> a lot more concerned about a Nigerian than about a white guy from the
>> Midwest.
>>
>> -Al-
>
>
> Hmmn and then there was Oklahoma City...
Sure, but be real ... the terrorists blowing up planes are Muslims. If
the authorities want to stop them, they have to target Muslims. And I'm
sure they are targeting them -- it would be insane not to. Most Muslims
are brown-skinned or black-skinned. They are the problem. Not the
millions of white Christians that fly. That's the reality, and to hell
with political correctness.
-Al-
Al Smith
I wish I could. I've reached the point in my thinking where I believe
only a revolution will put things right. If it happens in America, the
effects will spill over into Canada. It has to happen in the USA in
order to change the Western mentality. I want it to happen. I want the
rich bastards who are running America into the ground for the own
conceits and profit to be pulled off their thrones and brought low. It's
time. It's not about political parties, it's about the fundamental
underlying social structure. Terrorism is merely being used as an excuse
for greater control by the ruling elite over the general population.
Terrorism is not a real threat. It never was. It is a minor annoyance,
nothing more. The problem is the rich elite class that is running
things. They are exploiting us for their benefit. They've forgotten that
you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. It's time they were
reminded.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> maybe the ones who voted for them aren't complaining in the first
> place, you are.
Seems to me there are a lot of complaints about politicians at all
three levels. Too many to chalk up to us retards who didn't vote.
Maybe they ones who voted for them didn't like being lied to.
Ice!
Al Smith
I offer you revolution. Cast off your chains. Rise up and smite the
oppressors.
-Al-
Al Smith
That pretty much sums it up.
-Al-
Al Smith
When is an election not an election? When the elected official does not
even attempt to fulfill the will of the majority of those who elected
him. When the people never really had a meaningful choice in the
election, but were presented with two evils. When only one side of
important issues is presented in the media, so that election issues
never get fairly discussed.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> The right to complain because you voted, never did understand that
> statement. What does it accomplish, did you vote for the right person,
> or wrong, who got in, your guy our the other's. Just because you voted,
> do you really have any more power after that, except whining like a
> little tootler? What if you didn't vote and complained, does that mean
> you can't complain with the same yum-yum's in this group? ;-)
That was my point. If you voted for Stephen Harper, Darrell Dexter
or Peter Kelly, you helped put them there. More people voted for those
three than anyone else. They got who they wanted in power, so they have
no reason to complain (it's a free country, so they have a "right" to
complain if we want to split hairs.)
I, as I have said, didn't vote for any of them, so I can complain
all I want and I believe I have both the reason and right to do so. I
say it is backwards -- those who did vote have no reason to complain.
Those who did not vote can complain all they want. No one is going to
listen, but at least if I complain about one of those three, I am not
complaining about someone *I* helped get the job.
Ice!
Al Smith
I don't vote as much as I used to. The last few times I voted, I just
went through the motions. Last election, I didn't bother. I knew the
person I would have voted for would lose, and they did lose. In any
case, that person wasn't talking about the important issues that I feel
need to be discussed, so even if they had won, I would still have lost.
When there's no real choice, voting becomes a hollow farce.
-Al-
Al Smith
> shows that you at least tried to change things. A large part of the
> problem today is voter apathy, the bad politicians count on it working
> for them !
The very fact that someone complains and gets mad shows that they are
not apathetic.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> I am in full disagreement with you on this point. If you didn't care
> enough to vote, you do not have any room to criticize or to complain.
Why? I didn't care for any of the choices. I have a right to
vote, and a right not to. I decided not to. It does not mean those who
won are doing the right thing. You can be in complete disagreement all
you like. Stephen Harper is a liar and a control freak. Darrell Dexter
has decided socialism is good when you are in opposition, but when you
are in government, you need to cut services and raise taxes to make the
books balance. Peter Kelly has gotten us into a shitty (literally) and
expensive mess with the harbour cleanup.
Have I no right to say these things?
Ice!
Ice Age
>
> It's worse if you don't vote at all, half the problem is the politicos
> know they can do what they want and rarely are they voted out. If you
> don't vote, you can't complain about the government you receive.
I sure didn't vote, and I sure can complain. Where does it say I
can't? Maybe you think I should vote and should not complain, but there
is a big difference between shouldn't and can't.
Ice!
Al Smith
> know they can do what they want and rarely are they voted out. If you
> don't vote, you can't complain about the government you receive.
That makes no sense at all. Why should voting for some numb-nuts
politician entitle you to speak out? I didn't vote in the last election
because none of the people running for office were saying anything I
wanted to hear. Am I going to complain about the mess the ones who got
elected are making? Damn right I am! If the political process offers no
workable alternatives, than it only makes sense to opt out of the
process. To remain within it is hypocritical.
-Al-
Brian Smith
>
> Why? I didn't care for any of the choices. I have a right to vote,
> and a right not to. I decided not to. It does not mean those who won
> are doing the right thing. You can be in complete disagreement all you
> like.
That's good because I am.
> Stephen Harper is a liar and a control freak. Darrell Dexter has
> decided socialism is good when you are in opposition, but when you are
> in government, you need to cut services and raise taxes to make the
> books balance.
Did you expect the NDP to be truthful?
> Peter Kelly has gotten us into a shitty (literally) and
> expensive mess with the harbour cleanup.
It's difficult to believe that people still try to blame the mayor for
a power outage.
> Have I no right to say these things?
You didn't vote, you should be ashamed of yourself.
kozmo
cough,..cough...Peter McKay...cough...cough.
Halifax_Hooligan
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/12/26/ns-airport-dela...
>
> Might be a good idea for us all to make our own "No fly" list. A
> simple one:
>
> (1) USA
>
> That would save a lot of grief for everyone.
>
> Ice!
At this rate , you'll soon have to fly naked to enter the US. They are
rapidly shutting themselves off from the rest of the world.
Brian Smith
>
> At this rate , you'll soon have to fly naked to enter the US. They are
> rapidly shutting themselves off from the rest of the world.
A few years late in doing so, in my opinion.
Ice Age
>
> You didn't vote, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Why? If you want to vote, go ahead. Where does it say anyone has
to vote? Live with who you elect. If the person(s) you elect lie,
break their promises, give our tax dollars to their friends, I'll point
it out. You can't, because you hired them! :-)
Ice!
Ice Age
>
> Did you expect the NDP to be truthful?
>
I didn't expect any of them to be truthful, and thus I didn't vote
for any of them.
Why does this Rob guy call you Tubby all the time? I always
thought he was being mean spirited. Perhaps he knows something I do
not. :-)
Ice!
Wayne Hines
> Wayne Hines (w.d....@unspammed.ns.sympatico.ca) wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:49:11 +0000, Richard Bonner wrote:
>
>> > Best (who...@noone.fr) wrote:
>
>> >> "Ice Age" <ice_ag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > Might be a good idea for us all to make our own "No fly" list.
>> >> > A
>> >> > simple one:
>> >> >
>> >> > (1) USA
>
>> >> > That would save a lot of grief for everyone.
>> >> *You'd like to completely end the tourism business in Canada?
>> >
>> > *** There'd still be cars, trucks, busses, ships, boats, trains...
>> >
>> > Richard
>
>> But Brother Darrell has tied up the boat, the bus company is losing
>> money and wants to drop routes and there's only one train a day. How
>> many tourists can you get in a 53 foot trailer?
>
>> gwh
>
> *** How many tourists come by car and cruise ship? It's obvious that
> not enough are coming by The Cat or by bus if those services are losing
> money.
>
> Richard
I think the numbers were somewhere over 100,000 for The Cat until the
last couple of years. That corresponds to a general drop in the number of
American tourists visiting Canada. Most of them toured the province and
probably PEI and New Brunswick. They would drive one way and take the
ferry the other.
How many cruise ship passengers spend a few hours in Halifax each year?
They don't provide anywhere near the economic benefit as the tourists who
use The Cat.
gwh
Brian Smith
>
> Why?
Why? Because it is your duty as a citizen of this country.
> If you want to vote, go ahead. Where does it say anyone has
> to vote? Live with who you elect. If the person(s) you elect lie,
> break their promises, give our tax dollars to their friends, I'll point
> it out. You can't, because you hired them! :-)
You're incorrect.
Brian Smith
>
> I didn't expect any of them to be truthful, and thus I didn't vote
> for any of them.
Your loss.
> Why does this Rob guy call you Tubby all the time? I always thought
> he was being mean spirited. Perhaps he knows something I do not. :-)
I can't say why Rob is the way he is, you are probably on the mark with
the guesses you have made as to why he is so hateful.
Al Smith
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:12:36 GMT, Al Smith<inv...@address.com>
> you are of course, it would fit. Thanks but I will have a bit more
> faith in the average Muslim than many undesirable Christians I have
> met.
The majority of Muslims are not terrorists. However, the majority of
terrorists -- the vast majority -- are Muslims.
-Al-
Al Smith
My impression is that American tourism has really dropped over the past
decade or two. I just don't see as many American license plates in the
summer as I used to see. When I visited Cape Breton last summer, it was
almost deserted -- it used to be packed with Americans when I was a kid.
-Al-
Ice Age
>
> Why? Because it is your duty as a citizen of this country.
>
Where did you find that? In a law somewhere? Is it in the
constitution? Where did you find a reference that says it is my "duty"
to vote?
Ice!
James Warren
> Ice Age wrote:
>>
>> Whether or not I'm a retard is up for debate. Those who voted for
>> the politicians put them there. I had no hand in it. I have every
>> right to complain about them. The ones who put them there presumably
>> got what they wanted so ought not complain.
>
> enough to vote, you do not have any room to criticize or to complain.
The right to criticize and complain is guaranteed in the charter of right.
I suppose you meant moral right, but I disagree even with that.
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
James Warren
How do we recognize them if we should see them in the street. I want to
smite somebody real bad Al, but I don't know who. They are in disguise
and I can't see them. Damn, damn damn!
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
James Warren
All except you, Al. How did you manage to escape?
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
demibee
> Sure, but be real ... the terrorists blowing up planes are Muslims. If
> the authorities want to stop them, they have to target Muslims. And I'm
> sure they are targeting them -- it would be insane not to. Most Muslims
> are brown-skinned or black-skinned. They are the problem. Not the
> millions of white Christians that fly. That's the reality, and to hell
> with political correctness.
I dunno... *You're* the one thinking up easy ways to start a fire in a
plane ;)
But still, I agree with you on that point. If we start trying to weed out
every conceivable possibility, travel will eventually become so burdensome
that people will stick with their cars and avoid long-range public
transportation to the point that it may not be viable.
And speaking of all this last-hour washroom stuff, I wonder what a fire
*left unattended* in the the washroom would do?? I don't mean a
Molotov... just a plain old fire to, say, the paper towel, lit by a common
Bic lighter??
db
James Warren
Haven't you heard of the lessor of two evils or the least of the evils on
offer. Wouldn't that be better than no choice at all?
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
demibee
> I wish I could. I've reached the point in my thinking where I believe
> only a revolution will put things right. If it happens in America, the
> effects will spill over into Canada. It has to happen in the USA in
> order to change the Western mentality. I want it to happen. I want the
> rich bastards who are running America into the ground for the own
> conceits and profit to be pulled off their thrones and brought low. It's
> time. It's not about political parties, it's about the fundamental
> underlying social structure. Terrorism is merely being used as an excuse
> for greater control by the ruling elite over the general population.
> Terrorism is not a real threat. It never was. It is a minor annoyance,
> nothing more. The problem is the rich elite class that is running
> things. They are exploiting us for their benefit. They've forgotten that
> you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. It's time they were
> reminded.
OMG, I agree with a lot of that! ;)
George Carlin said much the same thing. He said anyone who watched the
news pretending to be "concerned" about complete strangers weren't really
being honest. People *want* to see something Big happen... and I think
it's not just because we like seeing stuff blown up on TV (there's
certainly enough of that), but deep down, we want to see the corruption --
and the corruptors -- brought down.
Sometimes, while watching CNN, I have to wonder if I'm not witnessing a
very slow version of the fall of the the USSR. The U.S. -- the West -- is
dying, I believe. Either that, or it's going through one hell of a
transition!
And the 'net is kind of "socializing" the world... Things we would have
paid thousands of dollars for in the '70s and '80s (e.g., a stereo) are
now free (e.g., Winamp). In the end, vendors will be selling food,
clothing, houses, and electronics... and, maybe, that's all. (And, of
course, it'll all be made in third-world countries.)
Sit back and enjoy the show... not sure there's much else we can do!
db
Al Smith
I think most of the really dangerous fires in planes start inside the
walls, in the wiring systems, where the fire extinguishers can't get at
them. A don't know about a cigarette fire in a toilet. Is there anything
to burn in a plane toilet? Other than toilet paper?
-Al-
Al Smith
We'll start with you, smart mouth.
-Al-
demibee
> When it comes to politics Al doesn't offer hope. He has said many times
> that we are just trogs to be manipulated by the rich and powerful. There
> is no hope; only servitude. It is all a grand conspiracy to keep us
> trogs in line; from TV, to video games to the school system. We're
> doomed.
If we don't stand up against those who corrupt our society, I think we are
doomed. Put another way, I think we're doomed ;)
Not doomed to die. (Maybe war??) But doomed to some kind of major
societal upheaval...
Consider employment... Most people in the '50s-'70s could afford houses;
now, for more and more, it takes two incomes to maintain an apartment.
Consider consumerism... We've sat by and watched while virtually *every*
kind of store/service has been limited to a one or two outlets run by
super-rich mega-corporations... doesn't even seem to faze anyone! The
older people in the crowd feel powerless to do anything; the younger have
never seen anything different.
Consider manufacturing... *What* manufacturing? ;) American and Canadian
soil are now almost devoid of it (dunno about Europe). It's done in
third-world countries; and those crazy enough to try it here at home can't
compete because the majority of people simply *won't* boycott the
mega-corps that are doing all this to us... It's too "convenient." Plus,
given their salaries, they feel they can't afford to boycott. Rather than
go without, rather than simplify, *most* people will continue to feed the
richest corporations on the planet while continuing to say (somewhat
insincerely) what a shame it is that their local downtown shops are
closing.
Halifax is a good example... The downtown is full of stores that are
about as impractical as impractical gets. The good ones that actually
sold stuff people need are gone.
We're a "service economy" now... and not a good one at that.
On top of all that, there's the Internet. I paid ~$1000 for my stereo in
the '80s. I still have it... I'll keep it till it dies. But why get
another?... I have a dozen free stereos to choose from online.
I remember when the malls were *always* crowded... much as they've been
over Christmas, but all year long. Now, aside from their food courts and
coffee shops, they're pretty dead. Remember Bayers Road Shopping Centre,
the two-level Scotia Square, Penhorn & Woodlawn Malls, etc?... essentially
gone.
I think, in the end, we'll be left with three major consumer categories:
(1) the basics (food, clothing, shelter); (2) electronics (and they're
cheap); and (3) "stuff" (miscellaneous items that a few people buy, but no
one needs).
Even the mega-corporations will run out of ways to separate the consumer
from his dollar.
db
Al Smith
> Sometimes, while watching CNN, I have to wonder if I'm not witnessing a
> very slow version of the fall of the the USSR. The U.S. -- the West -- is
> dying, I believe. Either that, or it's going through one hell of a
> transition!
> db
It will either fall into the condition of a second-rate power, or there
will be a social revolution. I can't guess which is more likely. A
revolution might revitalize the USA. Or it might not. I've observed the
decline of America since about 1970 -- that's approximately when the
decline started, although most people remained completely unaware of it
for a decade or two.
Most people would probably fix the beginning of the decline of America
at the end of the Vietnam War, or perhaps the first gasoline crisis. Or
Carter's "malaise" speech. It was evident to me when America pulled back
from space exploration -- when the final moon landings were canceled.
When Boeing declined to build a supersonic passenger jet. When there
were demonstrations against nuclear power. When the quality of American
cars began to decline radically.
There have been a whole series of indicators for those who cared to
look. But always you get the pundits saying that overall things have
improved. Head in the sand journalism. Real journalists, such as Hunter
S. Thompson, knew better:
[quote]
Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later?
Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era — the kind of peak
that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very
special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe
not, in the long run . . . but no explanation, no mix of words or music
or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and
alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant. . . .
History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit, but even
without being sure of “history” it seems entirely reasonable to think
that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head
in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the
time — and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened.
My central memory of that time seems to hang on one or five or maybe
forty nights — or very early mornings — when I left the Fillmore
half-crazy and, instead of going home, aimed the big 650 Lightning
across the Bay Bridge at a hundred miles an hour wearing L. L. Bean
shorts and a Butte sheepherder's jacket . . . booming through the
Treasure Island tunnel at the lights of Oakland and Berkeley and
Richmond, not quite sure which turn-off to take when I got to the other
end (always stalling at the toll-gate, too twisted to find neutral while
I fumbled for change) . . . but being absolutely certain that no matter
which way I went I would come to a place where people were just as high
and wild as I was: No doubt at all about that. . . .
There was madness in any direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay,
then up the Golden Gate or down 101 to Los Altos or La Honda. . . . You
could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that
whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. . . .
And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over
the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t
need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in
fighting — on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were
riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las
Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see
the high-water mark — that place where the wave finally broke and rolled
back.
-Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas-
[end quote]
Things have progressed so far, that the decline of America is no longer
a matter of doubt. Everyone can see it. It's unfortunate that it is
accompanied by a meanness of spirit, a petty viciousness and a
determination to get while the getting is still good. We have the
kidnapping and torture of human beings, many of whom are completely
innocent of any crime, and two completely unjustified invasions and
occupations of foreign countries, for no reason that any sane person can
pin down. We have Homeland Security and cops with tazers and attitudes.
Unless there is a general social revolution that turns out the ruling
elite, the large corporations, the major money firms and law firms, the
faculties of the universities, and those petty little gnats, the
politicians, America is is only going in one directions -- downhill.
-Al-
demibee
> How do we recognize them if we should see them in the street. I want to
> smite somebody real bad Al, but I don't know who. They are in disguise
> and I can't see them. Damn, damn damn!
You won't see them in the streets... They're all in their limos and
private jets ;)
db
Al Smith
No. I'm tired of the lesser of two evils. I want to kill both evils and
start fresh.
-Al-
demibee
> I sure didn't vote, and I sure can complain. Where does it say I
> can't? Maybe you think I should vote and should not complain, but there
> is a big difference between shouldn't and can't.
But isn't a vote the best *form* of complaint?
db
demibee
> That was my point. If you voted for Stephen Harper, Darrell Dexter
> or Peter Kelly, you helped put them there. . .
I agree that politics is a game... full of lies and corruption. But
what's the alternative?
And the U.S. sometimes seems precariously balanced. If one party ever
keeled over, they'd be a de-facto dictatorship -- a one-party democracy.
May never happen, but they could use a third party badly!
db
demibee
> The very fact that someone complains and gets mad shows that they are
> not apathetic.
But who notices that?
db
JD
"demibee" <dem...@post.com> wrote in message
news:408o07-...@news.dal.ca...
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:34:00 +0000, JD wrote:
>
>> When it comes to politics Al doesn't offer hope. He has said many times
>> that we are just trogs to be manipulated by the rich and powerful. There
>> is no hope; only servitude. It is all a grand conspiracy to keep us
>> trogs in line; from TV, to video games to the school system. We're
>> doomed.
>
I was being snide when I made the comment but...
> If we don't stand up against those who corrupt our society, I think we are
> doomed. Put another way, I think we're doomed ;)
>
Our society has always been corrupted by someone. We seem to continue
surviving and continue to try and make things better; not always
successfully.
> Not doomed to die. (Maybe war??) But doomed to some kind of major
> societal upheaval...
>
Seems to happen about every second generation.
> Consider employment... Most people in the '50s-'70s could afford houses;
> now, for more and more, it takes two incomes to maintain an apartment.
>
I have heard that argument many times. I also think it is a crock. Part of
the reason why things are different is because of consumer attitudes. In
the 50-70s, two-car households were rare. People kept furniture for 20
years. The average house for a family of five was 1100 sq ft, and two girls
or two boys in a household frequently shared a bedroom. People ate
leftovers, and Mom made jams, pickles, etc. Life was simpler and relatively
cheaper because people didn't have our current consumer attitude. Kids got
a bike ever three or four years, and the next kid in line got the
hand-me-down. Same with clothes. You wouldn't dare do that today; the kids
would rebel.
> Consider consumerism... We've sat by and watched while virtually *every*
> kind of store/service has been limited to a one or two outlets run by
> super-rich mega-corporations... doesn't even seem to faze anyone! The
> older people in the crowd feel powerless to do anything; the younger have
> never seen anything different.
>
We encourage it with buying power. I rarely shop at a big-box store and
will pay a bit more to support our local businesses. However, I am the
power of one. People fill WallyWorld chasing cheaper prices; no revenue, no
business. The small guys go under because we allow it to happen; encourage
it in fact.
> Consider manufacturing... *What* manufacturing? ;) American and Canadian
> soil are now almost devoid of it (dunno about Europe). It's done in
> third-world countries; and those crazy enough to try it here at home can't
> compete because the majority of people simply *won't* boycott the
> mega-corps that are doing all this to us... It's too "convenient." Plus,
> given their salaries, they feel they can't afford to boycott. Rather than
> go without, rather than simplify, *most* people will continue to feed the
> richest corporations on the planet while continuing to say (somewhat
> insincerely) what a shame it is that their local downtown shops are
> closing.
>
Again, we are to blame. Third world countries produce the goods far more
cheaply than we can. We look for the cheapest goods rather than something
made here.
> Halifax is a good example... The downtown is full of stores that are
> about as impractical as impractical gets. The good ones that actually
> sold stuff people need are gone.
>
Because you can get it at WallyWorld, COSTCO, etc. They can't make a go of
it. Downtown Halifax is a pain to get to, expensive to park in, and no one
will do it when they don;t have to. They go for the free parking and
highway access to Bayers Lake or Dartmouth Crossing.
> We're a "service economy" now... and not a good one at that.
>
WE have made it that way.
> On top of all that, there's the Internet. I paid ~$1000 for my stereo in
> the '80s. I still have it... I'll keep it till it dies. But why get
> another?... I have a dozen free stereos to choose from online.
>
I still have mine from that era too. However, $1000 in 1980 was a whole lot
of money; a month's salary from some families. $1000 today is a car repair.
>
> I remember when the malls were *always* crowded... much as they've been
> over Christmas, but all year long. Now, aside from their food courts and
> coffee shops, they're pretty dead. Remember Bayers Road Shopping Centre,
> the two-level Scotia Square, Penhorn & Woodlawn Malls, etc?... essentially
> gone.
>
Yup. But have a look at Bayers Lake or Dartmouth Crossing. People have
just moved their business; its about convenience nowadays.
> I think, in the end, we'll be left with three major consumer categories:
> (1) the basics (food, clothing, shelter); (2) electronics (and they're
> cheap); and (3) "stuff" (miscellaneous items that a few people buy, but no
> one needs).
>
There will always be someone to buy stuff; always.
> Even the mega-corporations will run out of ways to separate the consumer
> from his dollar.
>
Not in our lifetime. As long as there is a dollar and someone to spend it,
there will be someone to sell something for it.
JD
Especially in Canada. I once heard a political scientist state that we
don't so much elect governments as defeat them.
demibee
> Most people would probably fix the beginning of the decline of America
> at the end of the Vietnam War, or perhaps the first gasoline crisis. Or
> Carter's "malaise" speech. It was evident to me when America pulled back
> from space exploration -- when the final moon landings were canceled.
> When Boeing declined to build a supersonic passenger jet. When there
> were demonstrations against nuclear power. When the quality of American
> cars began to decline radically.
Sometimes, when I watch reruns of '60s or '70s shows, I hear the same
things said about malls then ("They're killing local businesses!") as I
hear about mega-stores now ("They're killing local malls!") Back then, I
was too young to have really noticed what was being said.
> There have been a whole series of indicators for those who cared to
> look. But always you get the pundits saying that overall things have
> improved. Head in the sand journalism. Real journalists, such as Hunter
> S. Thompson, knew better:
<snipped>
Interesting... I kind of wish I'd been there then :) Given the way
things are going, you never know... something may spark another social
revolution.
> Things have progressed so far, that the decline of America is no longer
> a matter of doubt. Everyone can see it. It's unfortunate that it is
> accompanied by a meanness of spirit, a petty viciousness and a
> determination to get while the getting is still good. . .
The U.S. banks come to mind... the bonuses they gave after the bailout.
> We have the kidnapping and torture of human beings, many of whom are
> completely innocent of any crime, and two completely unjustified
> invasions and occupations of foreign countries, for no reason that any
> sane person can pin down. We have Homeland Security and cops with tazers
> and attitudes.
And this new twist on airline travel will only make that even weirder!
db
demibee
> I have heard that argument many times. I also think it is a crock. Part
> of the reason why things are different is because of consumer attitudes.
> In the 50-70s, two-car households were rare. People kept furniture for
> 20 years. The average house for a family of five was 1100 sq ft, and
> two girls or two boys in a household frequently shared a bedroom. People
> ate leftovers, and Mom made jams, pickles, etc. Life was simpler and
> relatively cheaper because people didn't have our current consumer
> attitude. Kids got a bike ever three or four years, and the next kid in
> line got the hand-me-down. Same with clothes. You wouldn't dare do
> that today; the kids would rebel.
All that's true... but there seems to be a larger number of people just
getting by. I know a few people who make great salaries... and a *lot*
who make ~$20K... often after years of service to the companies they work
for.
> WE have made it that way.
No argument there... It takes two to tango: a mega-corp to take the
money, a consumer to give it.
How do we get the consumer to give it to the local business? And how do
we convince the consumer to do with less -- to practice what you wrote in
that first paragraph above? That's the hard part. It'll take a shift in
attitude.
> Yup. But have a look at Bayers Lake or Dartmouth Crossing. People have
> just moved their business; its about convenience nowadays.
Never been there. But the *variety* of businesses has diminished, as have
the number of stores dealing the same product. Grocery stores, department
stores, pharmacies, stationery stores, etc... I recall when there were a
half dozen of each, many of them local. Now, it's one, two... rarely
three of any particular kind of store. And some, like stationery stores,
are gone completely. Sears doesn't even have a proper stationery
section... "You mean gift cards?" No, stationery! "Oh, school
supplies!... [which we carry only during the fall and new year]" No...
writing paper, envelopes, file folders, staplers, paper cutters, etc.
Today, if you want quality stationery, you have to go to the one computer/
software/stationery store -- Staples. (And that's just one example.)
db
James Warren
Geez Al. I don't want to smite myself. I'm no masochist. I want to smite one
of the bad guys. Help me out here.
--
jw (a.k.a. Nagilum)
demibee
> Geez Al. I don't want to smite myself. I'm no masochist. I want to smite
> one of the bad guys. Help me out here.
If you ever run into a terrorist who'd like to take down an economic
American target, mention Microsoft... or Wal*Mart ;)
(Meh... on second thought, they've probably already considered those.)
db
Al Smith
> gone.
>
> I think, in the end, we'll be left with three major consumer categories:
> (1) the basics (food, clothing, shelter); (2) electronics (and they're
> cheap); and (3) "stuff" (miscellaneous items that a few people buy, but no
> one needs).
>
> Even the mega-corporations will run out of ways to separate the consumer
> from his dollar.
>
>
> db
The entire mind-set of our culture is sick. We are trained from birth to
think of ourselves as "consumers" and to want things we cannot afford to
buy, so that we will seek credit and get ourselves deeply into debt, so
that we will never dare to give up the shitty jobs we hate.
Most of the things we buy, we don't need. Some of them are even making
us physically ill. The message of the media is ceaseless -- conform,
conform, conform; buy, buy, buy; work, work, work; obey, obey, obey. We
are in servitude to a small elite class that has all the wealth and
power, and tells us not only what to do, but what to say and even what
to think. Our situation is little different from the serfdom of the Dark
Ages. We are brainwashed into striving for impossible goals, and then
scolded for not achieving them, and for feeling bad about our failure.
I think what we need is revolution, but not just a military or political
revolution. We need a revolution in the way we think, the way we look at
the world. It may involve a new religion, of a kind we can't even
imagine right now. It won't be any of the major faiths. They are all of
the past. Communism arose out of the same need we have now, but it was
flawed -- it was incapable of meeting the needs and aspirations of
humanity. It failed. Something else is needed, something new.
-Al-
Al Smith
You're the problem, James, not the solution.
-Al-
Al Smith
I'm ready to see the whole house of cards fall down. I really, sincerely
want the major corporations to fail, particularly those that are built
on bullshit and legal constraints and manipulations, such as the music
and television and movie industries, the big newspapers, the banks and
insurance corps, the drug companies, the software giants, the large
legal firms, the advertising industry, the credit card companies. I want
all of those bastards down in the mud.
-Al-
Wayne Hines
>
> My impression is that American tourism has really dropped over the past
> decade or two. I just don't see as many American license plates in the
> summer as I used to see. When I visited Cape Breton last summer, it was
> almost deserted -- it used to be packed with Americans when I was a kid.
>
> -Al-
Aside from fewer Americans visiting us, the "tourist season" has become
longer with many people touring the province in September and October,
and some in May and June. That tends to dilute the concentration of
tourists in July and August.
gwh
Wayne Hines
> Today, if you want quality stationery, you have to go to the one
> computer/ software/stationery store -- Staples. (And that's just one
> example.)
>
>
> db
The quality of brand-name items at Staples is the same as at independent
stores, which often are part of a chain or buying group. The quality of
Staples branded goods is often not as good as similar items at those
other shops.
gwh
demibee
> The quality of brand-name items at Staples is the same as at independent
> stores, which often are part of a chain or buying group. The quality of
> Staples branded goods is often not as good as similar items at those
> other shops.
Probably true... I miss Mahon's -- a bit expensive, but what you bought
lasted. I still have items I bought there (in the Scotia Square outlet)
in the early '80s... and no signs of wear either.
db
Al Smith
I never thought of that. Good point.
-Al-
Rob
> Why does this Rob guy call you Tubby all the time? I always thought
> he was being mean spirited. Perhaps he knows something I do not. :-)
Well Me Age, for the same reason I call you a drunk, a womanizer, lazy,
and an oil dumping fool. If the shoe fits...
Rob
> When it comes to politics Al doesn't offer hope. He has said many times
> that we are just trogs to be manipulated by the rich and powerful.
> There is no hope; only servitude. It is all a grand conspiracy to keep
> us trogs in line; from TV, to video games to the school system. We're
> doomed.
That's why I run to the hills. You wouldn't believe how quiet it is
there, and the scenery is awesome.