Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? - Construction Permit Required ?

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

What is the situation of the Hexayurt in relation to legal matters ?

Does it require a construction permit ?

///

In case some answers have already been given online, feel free to redirect me :)

///

I notice, for example in France ( although I personally live in Belgium ), 

that government agencies gave a lot of legal hardship to people choosing to live in a Mongolian yurt.

A more recent legal proceeding at a court of appeal in Toulouse concluded that a Yurt is a tent and not a housing requiring a construction permit :

http://yurtao.canalblog.com/

Although I am curious to see if this will be accepted by other court cases in France.

I have the impression that the recent french Loppsi2 legislation may still give yurt inhabitants some more hard times.

Apparently, Loppsi2 can give all powers to a bureaucrat ( the "prefet" ) , without the possibility to go to court :

http://yourtes.net/LOPPSI2.html

excerpt : "Cette nouvelle procédure exclut le recours à la justice, donc toute possibilité de défense, la décision appartenant au seul Préfet."

I wonder if the recent ( May 2011 ° decision of the court of appeal of Toulouse means that a Yurt is not considered a construction as defined in the recent Loppsi2 law...

[Ray Kornele]

In the US, it depends on local building code. E.g., where I am, any building less than 120sf, without utilities does not require a permit. However, if you put in gas, electric or sewer, those have to be permitted.

However, if you run a propane stove using bottled propane, no permit required.

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

[Bill Wiltschko]

The typical hexayurt is 166 sq ft.

 

Bill

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[Ray Kornele]

If you do the math you may find that is not the case.
It actually figures out to 41.56928 square feet for the one mane of 5 sheets of plywood. Where the 166 figure came from, but it's WAY off.


KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

[ken winston caine]

How can that be?

 

Please work out the math for us in a message so we can see it.

 

If you just had an 8-footx8-foot floor area you would have 64 square feet. And with the hexagon made up of SIX (not five) 8-foot walls, you have substantially more than an 8-footx8-foot floor area.

 

Am sure I must have missed an earlier message in this thread, but the square-footage number leaped out at me in this message. For year's I've accepted Vinay's calculation that the traditional hexayurt provides 166 square feet of floor area. I'm pretty sure he's calculated that correctly. But I'm not a math whiz and need to see how you are working out these numbers, if you don't mind.

 

Thanks,

ken

----- Original Message -----

From: Ray Kornele

To: hexa...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:41 AM

Subject: Re: [hexayurt] Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? - Construction Permit Required ?

[Bill Wiltschko]

166 is based on the known dimensions and angle of the roof.  The roof consists of half sections of 4x8 foot panels set at a 30 degree angle from horizontal.  So, the 8ft long roof triangles trace a distance of 8 times cos(30) along the ground, or 6.93 ft.  Each wall is 8 ft wide, so the area of the triangle made by a wall’s intersection with the ground and the center point of the hexayurt is 8 times 6.93 divided by 2 (base times height divided by 2).  Multiple by 6 to get the total area of the hexayurt.

 

Bill

[ken winston caine]

Thanks for expositing this, Bill. I was pretty sure that 166 was a good number. It just seems right when you stand inside and look.

 

But I DIDN'T know how to calculate it for myself when considering a hexagon. (Been more than 40 years since I took geometry and I don't use calculations like that regularly in my work or life. So, sorry Mr. Harvey. Most of your sometimes less than patient efforts with me have been lost to time. I may have passed the tests, but I didn't retain.)

 

Best,

ken winston caine

[Steve Upstill]

Or, forget the roof: the walls form a hexagon 8' on a side. A hexagon is six equilateral triangles, each 8' on a side. The height of an equilateral triangle is sqrt(8*8-4*4) = 6.92, so its area is 6.92*8/2 = 27.7. Six such triangles will thus be 166.28 square feet. Good job, Vinay!

Just looking at it another way...

Cheers,

Steve Upstill

--

Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice.

-- H. L. Mencken

[Milt Fisher]

The area of a hexagon is determined from the formula 

 

where t is the length of the side.

With an 8 ft side, the area works out to 166 sq. ft.

Milt

[Ray Kornele]

Ah, yes, that is interior VOLUME. The 120 sft I spoke of is FLOOR AREA! Now, are we on the same page?

No, our code does not care how high the building is. They require inspection after FOOTPRINT reaches over 120 sf, or the building has gas or electric installed.

The standard hexayurt has walls 4x4, not 8x8,

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

[Ray Kornele]

166 is NOT the area of a hexagon w/4'edges. I have NOT forgot my math.

The area of an equilateral triangle, 4' on a side is 4*4*sin(60)/2 =
6.92820323
six of those have an area of
6.92820323*6 =
41.56921938.

The 166 figure is simply WRONG!

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

[Elliot]

Actaully my understanding is that the 166 figure comes from the fact that the footprint of a hexayurt is a hexagon.

The area of a hexagon is 3^(3/2)*(Edge Length)/2

Therefore for an edge length of 8' you have a hexagon with area ~166.28 square feet.

I'm not sure how you were calculating it, but I'm fairly certain that your calculation of 41.57 feet of floor space is wrong.  As Ken said, you know that the area must be greater than a square with 8' edges, so at the very least you must have a footprint greater than 64 square feet.

[Lucas González]

I think we only want to consider the roof when looking at standing room.
I looked at "average human height" in wikipedia, and the not-entirely-unreasonable figures give us 5-6 feet depending on, well, I suppose a mix of ancestors and food etc. (And age and male-femaleity, of course.)
The walls start at 4 feet and the highest point is 8 feet, so standing room is not the full hexagon floor, but a smaller hexagon at the height of the (adult) heads.

I looked at this visually for the H13 http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_H13 and even for the H14 (never built yet, AFAIK), and standing room is substantially larger, like 66% more, cos you start with 6 small triangles and H13 adds 4 more such triangles (if you look at that page), for a single extra panel (even more for the H14).

I haven't been able to figure out how to make an H13 out of plywood, tho'. you know, with 120º and 150º blocks and all that. Just a minor challenge here, I'm sure. <grin>
http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_Plywood (much of the documentation is at the Discussion subpage, cos I don't feel confident enough that I understand how it works yet).

Lucas

2011/6/18 Steve Upstill <ups...@gmail.com>

[Ray Kornele]

The floor is six equilateral triangles, 4x?
One equilateral triangle is
4*(4*sin(60))/2 =
6.92820323
six such triangles are
ANS*6 =
41.56921938

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:02 AM, ken winston caine <k...@mindbodyspiritjournal.com> wrote:

How can that be?

 

Please work out the math for us in a message so we can see it.

 

If you just had an 8-footx8-foot floor area you would have 64 square feet. And with the hexagon made up of SIX (not five) 8-foot walls, you have substantially more than an 8-footx8-foot floor area.

 

Am sure I must have missed an earlier message in this thread, but the square-footage number leaped out at me in this message. For year's I've accepted Vinay's calculation that the traditional hexayurt provides 166 square feet of floor area. I'm pretty sure he's calculated that correctly. But I'm not a math whiz and need to see how you are working out these numbers, if you don't mind.

 

Thanks,

ken

----- Original Message -----

From: Ray Kornele

To: hexa...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:41 AM

Subject: Re: [hexayurt] Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? - Construction Permit Required ?

If you do the math you may find that is not the case.

It actually figures out to 41.56928 square feet for the one made of 5 sheets of plywood. Where the 166 figure came from, but it's WAY off.

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Bill Wiltschko <bi...@wiltschko.org> wrote:

The typical hexayurt is 166 sq ft.

 

Bill

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[et...@elitemail.org]

Sorry I've got no drawing here, but try to visualize a hexagon from
above, sides all 8' in length. If you divide it out that hexagon is
made up of 6 equilateral triangles each with a base of 8'. The area of
each triangle is what, one half base times height? A little Pythagoras
tells me the "height" would be the square root of 48. Multiply that all
out: Root(48)*4*6 =166.28 square feet.

Man I loved geometry problems back in middle school =)

-Ethan

[ken winston caine]

I see where Ray is getting his 41.5 square foot floor area figure. He is mistakenly believing that a standard hexayurt is using 4x4 walls instead of 4x8 or 8x8 or 6x8 as introduced by Vinay, and in which the 8-foot length is the width of each wall of the hexagon.

 

So we're ALL right. Ray is just building a much smaller model of hexayurt that the rest of us.

 

-- ken winston caine

[Charles Fillinger]

The rest of us are working on a hexagon with 8' edges, the plywood
laying on the 8' edge and standing 4' high. AKA the original hexayurt.
Floor area is 166 sq ft regardless of your capital letters, your math
is correct, but your assumption of a 4' side is invalid.

On Jun 17, 3:43 pm, Ray Kornele <krazykyngeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 166 is NOT the area of a hexagon w/4'edges. I have NOT forgot my math.
>
> The area of an equilateral triangle, 4' on a side is 4*4*sin(60)/2 =
> 6.92820323
> six of those have an area of
> 6.92820323*6 =
> 41.56921938.
>
> The 166 figure is simply WRONG!
>
> KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 1:36 PM, ken winston caine <k...@mindbodyspiritjournal.com> wrote:
> >  Thanks for expositing this, Bill. I was pretty sure that 166 was a good
> > number. It just seems right when you stand inside and look.
>
> > But I DIDN'T know how to calculate it for myself when considering a
> > hexagon. (Been more than 40 years since I took geometry and I don't use
> > calculations like that regularly in my work or life. So, sorry Mr. Harvey.
> > Most of your sometimes less than patient efforts with me have been lost to
> > time. I may have passed the tests, but I didn't retain.)
>
> > Best,
> > ken winston caine
>
> > ----- Original Message -----

> > *From:* Bill Wiltschko <b...@wiltschko.org>
> > *To:* hexa...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Friday, June 17, 2011 1:32 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [hexayurt] Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? -

> > Construction Permit Required ?
>
> >  166 is based on the known dimensions and angle of the roof.  The roof
> > consists of half sections of 4x8 foot panels set at a 30 degree angle from
> > horizontal.  So, the 8ft long roof triangles trace a distance of 8 times
> > cos(30) along the ground, or 6.93 ft.  Each wall is 8 ft wide, so the area
> > of the triangle made by a wall’s intersection with the ground and the center
> > point of the hexayurt is 8 times 6.93 divided by 2 (base times height
> > divided by 2).  Multiple by 6 to get the total area of the hexayurt.
>
> > Bill
>

> > *From:* hexa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hexa...@googlegroups.com] *On
> > Behalf Of *ken winston caine
> > *Sent:* Friday, June 17, 2011 11:02 AM
> > *To:* hexa...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [hexayurt] Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? -

> > Construction Permit Required ?
>
> > How can that be?
>
> > Please work out the math for us in a message so we can see it.
>
> > If you just had an 8-footx8-foot floor area you would have 64 square feet.
> > And with the hexagon made up of SIX (not five) 8-foot walls, you have
> > substantially more than an 8-footx8-foot floor area.
>
> > Am sure I must have missed an earlier message in this thread, but the
> > square-footage number leaped out at me in this message. For year's I've
> > accepted Vinay's calculation that the traditional hexayurt provides 166
> > square feet of floor area. I'm pretty sure he's calculated that correctly.
> > But I'm not a math whiz and need to see how you are working out these
> > numbers, if you don't mind.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > ken
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>

> > *From:* Ray Kornele <krazykyngeko...@gmail.com>
>
> > *To:* hexa...@googlegroups.com
>
> > *Sent:* Friday, June 17, 2011 11:41 AM
>
> > *Subject:* Re: [hexayurt] Legal Status for Hexayurt Constructions ? -

> > Construction Permit Required ?
>
> > If you do the math you may find that is not the case.
> > It actually figures out to 41.56928 square feet for the one mane of 5
> > sheets of plywood. Where the 166 figure came from, but it's WAY off.
>
> > KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)
>

> >  On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Bill Wiltschko <b...@wiltschko.org>

[Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)]

We really, really need to sort out the naming scheme for various kinds of hexayurts to stop misunderstandings like this arising.

One more thing on the to-do list, maybe somebody will have a great idea and figure it out!

V>

[Lucas González]

What would be the concepts? Number of panels, symmetry and height?

A 12-panel, round-symmetric, 4-foot-walled one ...
A 13-panel, elongated-symmetric, mostly-4-foot-walled one ...

?

Seems hard-ish. Because, well, on top of the variables of the space, there's the "common name". Which might even be internationally pronounceable.

:-/

Lucas

2011/6/22 Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) <hexa...@gmail.com>

We really, really need to sort out the naming scheme for various kinds of hexayurts to stop misunderstandings like this arising.

One more thing on the to-do list, maybe somebody will have a great idea and figure it out!

V>

--

[Ray Kornele]

How about
hexayurt is normal
HY8 is with eight walls
HY9 is with 9 walls
etc.

12-panel, round-symmetric, 4-foot-walled with 6' center height
HY12x4x6

KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)

[Joshua Keroes]

Proposal 1: if we say that the Hn represents the minimum number of material sheets to make the base model in that design, then the compact notation Hn+m can represent additional sheets of material to increase wall height. 

Examples:

H12: the canonical hexayurt (12 sheets)

H12+3: hexayurt with 6' tall walls (15 sheets total)

H12+6: a hexayurt with 8' walls (18 sheets total)

H7: a stretch hexayurt (7 sheets total)

H13: http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_H13 (13 sheets total)

H13+3: an H13 with 6' walls.

Proposal 2: Same definition of Hn as above. Instead of focusing on material usage, let's tell people how tall the beast is.

H12: the canonical hexayurt

10' H12: a hexayurt with 6' tall walls

12' H12: a hexayurt with 8' tall walls

10' H13: an h13 with 6' tall walls.

 

Pragmatically, using "Hn" instead of "HYn" is preferable for two reasons: it's already in use and Google searches for "hexayurt h13" already work.

-Joshua

PS This assumes that providing both the wall height and center height is redundant. Can't we derive one from the other?

PPS I'm explicitly not using n to represent the number of walls. That's already indicated by the name: a hexayurt has six walls, a pentayurt five, and below, that would be an octoyurt and a nonayurt, I think. I believe the non-six sided shapes are rare and therefore don't need a shorthand notation at this time.

PPPS I'm also not using n to represent the number of faces. A stretch hexayurt would then be an h10 instead of an h7. Someone else can argue in favor of that if you're so inclined.

[Lucas González]

The larger yurts, tridome and quaddome, are not even yurts. No problem in naming those. They share the origin (rectangular panels) and the zero-waste-ness.

Lucas

2011/6/22 Joshua Keroes <jos...@keroes.com>

[Chasomatic]

I'm calling mine (6' vertical panels 2 each side, & 10' center) the
Mark ll. Because it's my second hexayurt and I like the name.

chasomatic

On Jun 22, 10:09 am, Ray Kornele <krazykyngeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about
> hexayurt is normal
> HY8 is with eight walls
> HY9 is with 9 walls
> etc.
>
> 12-panel, round-symmetric, 4-foot-walled with 6' center height
> HY12x4x6
>
> KrazyKyngeKorny (Krazy, not stupid)
>

> 2011/6/22 Lucas González <lucas.gonzalez...@gmail.com>> What would be the concepts? Number of panels, symmetry and height?

>
> > A 12-panel, round-symmetric, 4-foot-walled one ...
> > A 13-panel, elongated-symmetric, mostly-4-foot-walled one ...
>
> > ?
>
> > Seems hard-ish. Because, well, on top of the variables of the space,
> > there's the "common name". Which might even be internationally
> > pronounceable.
>
> > :-/
>
> > Lucas
>

> > 2011/6/22 Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) <hexay...@gmail.com>

[Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150289815967754&set=a.10150289815847754.392502.685202753&type=1

This is an interesting approach. I wonder if doing it by panel count is the right approach, vs. doing it by panel *area*?

Thoughts?

V>

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--
Vinay Gupta
Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest

http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering
http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision

"In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus

Twitter/Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk/AIM: hexayurt
UK Cell : +44 (0) 7500 895568 / USA VOIP (+1) 775-743-1851

[Joshua Keroes]

Does this facebook link for for anyone else?

[Keith Brown]

Doesn't work for me, and I am logged into Facebook.

-Keith

[D.V.Rogers]

vinay posted a link to a facebook image of a naming schematic for the hexayurt.

it is attached...

/dvr

=====================
http://disastr.urbanaction.org
=====================

[Lucas González]

Looked at the picture shared by D.V. Rogers - thanks! (I wonder what the license of that picture is - it's a cool picture).

Panel count vs panel area?  I get panel count, but I don't understand how you'd name with panel area? An example or two?

Lucas

2011/6/24 Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) <hexa...@gmail.com>

[D.V.Rogers]

license of the image is ©© so feel free to use and publish wherever..

2011/6/24 Lucas González <lucas.go...@gmail.com>:

[Cody Firestone]

Vinay, can you get it into the wiki for hexayurt on wikipedia?!  Really illustrates the concept

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 6:35 AM, D.V.Rogers <d...@allshookup.org> wrote:

license of the image is ©© so feel free to use and publish wherever..

[ken winston caine]

I get "content not available" when I click on the photo link.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Joshua Keroes

To: hexa...@googlegroups.com

[jeff harrison]

two versions posted.  make sure you use the one in this post that includes the entire url.  you will need to be logged in to your facebook account to see it.  also available here (last entry on the page)

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[ken winston caine]

Thanks. Got it.

 

Question:  The H18 and H12 and 13 models all have the same floor area, don't they? Yet the photo of the sandbox models gives the illusion that the H18 is smaller in diameter. Interesting, isn't it? Camera angle? Height illusion? Both?

 

-- kwc

[Lucas González]

http://www.makerfairekc.com/meet-the-makers/2011/6/15/meet-the-maker-matthew-hawkins.html

"fish hexayurt"?

nice oportunity for art and naming?

[Lucas González]

Ok, so 3 things:

= 1. EDIT WIKI =
The reference page starts at http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt

Anyone can click on the top-right corner ("log in / create an account"), create a username/password pair, which you'll use in every session, and then just edit away.

Just like in wikipedia, if you type something wrong, the next person can roll back to how things were before you messed it up - so really there's no harm in trying.

= 2. WHICH HEXAYURT =

That said, I'm not sure where we'd put that photo. There's http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_playa#Which_Hexayurt.3F but it's already pretty crowded.

= AND 3. HELP WITH PLYWOOD HEXAYURT PAGE =

The http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_Plywood and http://www.appropedia.org/Talk:Hexayurt_Plywood pages are about the plywood hexayurt.

Is anyone trying these at the Playa? It would be cool to document this further.

Lucas

2011/6/24 Cody Firestone <4x4...@gmail.com>