Late starting yurt

[Todd Reed]

Hi all,

I'm contemplating building a yurt for this burn and getting a late start. Anyone have any caveats about getting this done by playa-time? As far as I can tell, I would be building a Julie Danger's 12 sheet semi- folding model with a rope halo and taped up tarp around the bottom.

I'm not totally clear on the amount of tape needed. I'm thinking I need 2 6" rolls and 2 3" rolls plus a roll of aluminum tape to cover the bi-fi tape. I've been reading about also covering the edges of the boards using gorilla tape but have no source for getting this.

I've got a fallback position if this is an untenable project. Just wondering if it seems doable to the folks on the list.

Thanks.

Todd

[Elliot]

I think you have plenty of time :)

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[Dawn Flury]

I'm doing the same thing.  Three of us are trying to finish yurts this weekend but are having problems finding supplies.  I ordered the 6-inch tape and have it and the foil tape but the only insulation boards we can find in Atlanta are the 1-inch thick poly shield.  We're just hoping that with a lot of tape and a little rebar reinforcement we can make this work.

Dawn

[Steve Upstill]

Hi Todd,

Are you in the Bay Area? There's some loose talk of a yurt-building bee on the 20th.

...but if you do it yourself, my experience last year indicates you should be able to do it in a day, or at most two, if you have some basic tools: jigsaw, sawhorses, large, level surface to work on, long-ass straight-edge, something to clamp the straight-edge down with, and most of all, an assistant to help with moving panels, taping edges, etc. There are many parts of the job that will go three times as fast with two people.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Steve
--
Thinking is a momentary dismissal of irrelevancies.
-- Buckminster Fuller

[Alyssa Royse]

I built my first one as a test for this year. I had no idea what I was doing, but am generally crafty / handy  etc....  It took me barely an hour and was incredibly easy. You have enough time to build about 300 yurts between now and the burn. :)

You even have time to make an "A/C" for it, and maybe some furniture. 

____________________

Not So Secret http://notsosecret.com
Personal Pontifications @ Alyssa Royse.com
Tiny Tidbits on Twitter @alyssaroyse 

On Aug 4, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Todd Reed wrote:

[William Ozier]

Yes you have PLENTY of time!
I didn't bother much with the folding hexayurt design. I took two with me. I just made the diagonal cuts at home and then strapped the panels to the truck and went. That took me all of like 2 hours of time to get down. The single hardest part about assembly there was when winds would kick up...that and I was drinking alot of beer at the same time. Assembly at BM took me like an hour each with some help. The single hardest part was taping the roof panels. Attached is the picture of how I did it. What you can't see is that there is someone underneath the roof supporting it from the inside. In another camp I saw they pulled two trucks parallel and layed a lader across the them and taped the roof panels hanging down from the ladder.

In short though I cannot recommend a hexayurt enough!!!! It was awesome for BM!!!!

--
William Ozier,
Director of the Camassia Institute at Lost Valley
www.lostvalley.org
(541) 937-3351

[Steve Upstill]

That's a good datapoint. Consider my 1-day time to be for the bells-and-whistles (bevelled, taped up the wazoo, ventilation, door) version, a good portion of which was (for me) time spent convincing myself that I was making the right cut. Either way, you're sweet.

Cheers,

Steve

--

You must be present to win.

[Todd Reed]

Okay, this is pretty amusing.

Thanks for the info. I'll be sure and drink plenty of beer, build 2-300 yurts this weekend and not sweat it.

Now if I can just get the tape.

Todd

[Richard Ginn]

Yeah, finding materials is the fail point if the materials are hard to find during normal times.  In an emergency this would probably not be easier.  Alternate materials would be great to figure out.

[Pete Baker]

Todd,

I built mine back in 2008 on my own 2 days before leaving for the playa.   As long as you have your tape, the boards and a decent knife, all you need is the best part of a day and you can make it happen!   Doing the cuts and getting the edges taped up is the hard part... once you've got that done the rest is easy.

Remember, get more tape than you think you need!

-P

[Cheese]

You should think about attaching 1/4" wall board to give it strength.
It adds cost of another $8 a board but it will last.

On Aug 4, 4:39 pm, Dawn Flury <saharas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm doing the same thing.  Three of us are trying to finish yurts this
> weekend but are having problems finding supplies.  I ordered the 6-inch tape
> and have it and the foil tape but the only insulation boards we can find in
> Atlanta are the 1-inch thick poly shield.  We're just hoping that with a lot
> of tape and a little rebar reinforcement we can make this work.
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Elliot <kryp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think you have plenty of time :)
>

[Dawn Flury]

How would you recommend attaching it? I'm seriously considering buying the wall board and using liquid nails to bond it to the insulation board.
My boyfriend & I were also considering extra rebar on the corners for added strength.  Any advice greatly appreciated.
Dawn

On Aug 5, 2011 4:06 PM, "Cheese" <jpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

You should think about attaching 1/4" wall board to give it strength.
It adds cost of another $8 a board but it will last.

On Aug 4, 4:39 pm, Dawn Flury <saharas...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm doing the same thing.  Three of u...

> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Elliot <kryp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think you have plenty of t...

> > On 4 August 2011 16:39, Todd Reed <tlxr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> Hi all, > > >> I'm contempla...

[Cheese]

I used liquid nails and it worked great, but I also used the
Thermasheath with the foil backing. It should work fine.

On Aug 5, 1:13 pm, Dawn Flury <saharas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How would you recommend attaching it? I'm seriously considering buying the
> wall board and using liquid nails to bond it to the insulation board.
> My boyfriend & I were also considering extra rebar on the corners for added
> strength.  Any advice greatly appreciated.
> Dawn
>

[Cheese]

I made about quarter sized blobs every 12" with the liquid nails.

On Aug 5, 1:13 pm, Dawn Flury <saharas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How would you recommend attaching it? I'm seriously considering buying the
> wall board and using liquid nails to bond it to the insulation board.
> My boyfriend & I were also considering extra rebar on the corners for added
> strength.  Any advice greatly appreciated.
> Dawn
>

[Cheese]

Once the wallboard is on, you will see a huge increase in strength.
You can also buy "hurricane straps" from home depot. They are just
thin metal braces with holes in them you can bend to same angle as
your walls and screw together on the inside. It also gives a cool
wood wall finish and you wont kick a hole in your wall.

On Aug 5, 1:13 pm, Dawn Flury <saharas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How would you recommend attaching it? I'm seriously considering buying the
> wall board and using liquid nails to bond it to the insulation board.
> My boyfriend & I were also considering extra rebar on the corners for added
> strength.  Any advice greatly appreciated.
> Dawn
>

[ken winston caine]

ONLY the tubes marked "Interior and Exterior Heavy Duty Construction
Adhesive" work well with foam and other many other poly surfaces.

They have a gold and blue label.

There are a BUNCH of different varieties of Liquid Nails.

Cooly enough, the one that works with foam is one of the lesser expensive
varieties.

-- ken winston caine

--

[Dawn Flury]

Thanks for the tip about Liquid Nails. We began construction yesterday on our H13 and a 6 ft stretch for a friend. We purchased 1/4 inch thich underlying/sheathing boards and used Liquid Nails & edge tape to bond them to the 1 inch insulation boards. I'm very impressed with how sturdy the resulting walls are. We plan to finish up taping the dreaded Danger hinges tonight and the whole thing leaves on the container truck this coming Monday for the Playa. I hope to see many of you there. I'll be at 4:30 & Coming Out camped with Alchemy C.O.R.E. group stop by and say hello.
Thanks again,
Dawn Flury

[Alejandro]

Hi Dawn,

Yes, very late start here but I've found all the materials locally and
am getting started today on the H13. You mentioned that you built the
H13. That's what I'm doing.

My question is about tape - how many rolls, or I guess the real
question is, how many feet/yards do you need for the H13?

I ask because the bidirectional filament tape from goodbuyguys.com is
$30/roll, and at this point I'd have to do at least 2nd day air to
have it in time. I'm guessing 4 rolls, 2nd day air is expensive. I'm
also not thrilled about the flammability of that stuff, it's like
gasoline. I'd rather not have that kind of volatility present. I
know the regular 8' yurt needs 700 feet as per Vinay Gupta's
spreadsheet:

Instead of the bidirectional filament, I'm thinking of a combo of
gorilla tape (but scrubbing the panel edges first with an alcohol-
soaked rag apparently does the trick), supplemented with some 2" foil
tape, both I can get locally and are still in stock.

2nd question is I'm wondering if you already have it set up and wind-
tested it on the playa (of course if you're at the playa now I'm
guessing you won't be able to check your email).

And if anyone else has suggestions as to what tape is best and how
much, I'd GREATLY appreciate it. I'm gonna do 1" panels, 13 of them,
and probably a combo tape-down/rope/rebar anchor with carabiners from
the rope to rebar so as to prevent fraying.

MUCH THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!

-Alejandro

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/hexayurt?hl=en.

[Ian]

I'm getting as late a start as you. You can get tape from people with
extra, I've seen postings here, and also on Craig's List in the past
day.
Well, okay, it's in the SF Bay Area so not sure if you are.

[Alejandro Moreno]

Yes, I found a burner on Treasure Island who bought tape but didn't build a yurt.  I'm in Marin so we'll connect hopefully today.  Went and bought just about everything aside from the bidi fil tape for the H13 last night at Home Despot in San Rafael, I got 13 of their last 14 polyiso panels ($18 each, ouch), all they have left there are the polystyrene and some of that bendy pink and blue stuff, at least as of last night.  Hopefully they'll have more than that at your locale.  

Thanks Ian!

(I'll share my buying experience, loading strategy to get home from Home Despot, and costs below for those of you who care to read on)...

Even though I got lucky and found an employee there who used to be a contractor (with real working knowledge and knew where everything was), it still took me over 2 hours to get everything (by myself), and another 1/2 hour to load the panels on top of my wagon's roof rack (again, by myself).  I'm sure you know Home Despot is not famous for its customer service and given how ginormous those warehouses are and having to navigate abandoned carts filled with everything from doors to wood beams, you get the picture.  Go with someone else if you can.

  Bungy cords made it a whole lot easier, plus I didn't have to get on the freeway to get home, ergo I did not test the bungy/panel combo at high speeds, I got no higher than 35mph on the way home last night for 1/2 hr. I intend to do 65-70mph up I80 on Sunday. They have plastic jugs of bungy cords for $10, so I got 2.  If you already have lots of bungy cords in good condition, use them instead.  I also bought four 6' split pipe insulation sections for my rebar (so no one hurts themselves if they walk into it at night), and used that to cushion the bungy cords against the panel edges on the way home, so as to not indent the panels too severely.  It worked pretty well, though you should buy 6 just to be safe, as I was short 2 on the front end of the panels (as you can see in the pics).  I think once they're taped and loaded, I'll also wrap a moving blanket at least around the front end (probably the rear too) of the panel pile so the wind can't get in between each panel individually.  It's a fairly thick stack on top of the car and will certainly increase wind drag but, I'm not about to rent a vehicle or trailer just for the yurt.  Everything at Home Depot, including materials for tie/anchor-down, cost me $393 last night (if you apply for a credit card they'll give you another $50 off but I didn't though the lady helping me gave me $20 off), I already have a mallet so that wasn't included.  I did get a 16x20 tarp with grommets - $40, and 2 rolls of 100' rope @ $10 each (included in the $393). You only need 100' of rope supposedly but,  I figured for $10 extra better to be safe and have a backup. I got 8 rebars, not 6 (3/8" x 3' should be plenty), I didn't already have a good blade ($9), nor did I have a 48" drywall straight metal edge ($10), so if any of you do, you can maybe save some money on a few of these things, maybe only get 6 rebars not 8, only get 100' of rope not 200', it's some savings but not a lot. I bought 2 furnace filters for windows but the guy that helped me said he's camped up there once and said that those filters won't work, the dust will still get in because it's so super-fine, granted though he's never tried to actually build a yurt and use filters for windows.  They even had the foil tape (Nashua brand) there to cover up the bidi fil tape.  They have a 2" foil tape, and a 3" foil tape, the 3" is significantly more expensive, though I was tempted because it listed the actual "high temperature" testing on the cover, whereas the 2" didn't.  All the hexayurt instructions say the 2" is fine, but the temp listing not listed on the 2" tape concerned me, but that helpful employee told me that I'm good with either one, so I went with the less expensive 2" foil tape, got 3 rolls at 50 yards each, should be enough to tape just the parts that need foil tape.  Again, this is to cover certain portions of the highly flammable bidi filament tape. I also got one big roll of gorilla tape to tape the tarp floor to the panels.  I may get one more tarp to give the roof extra resistance to rain, not sure yet.  

     Add the bidi fil tape to this cost (I'm getting approx 1260 ft), at $179 (not including shipping for the tape) and the total so far is $572.  

     So these postings that mention doing a yurt "all for under $300", even without the "frills", horse dookie! I simply see NO way of achieving that kind of low cost, especially from some mom n pop store as they can't beat Despot prices, not if you do it right, and get the real polyiso foam panels and not the polystyrene crap, and get enough of the real bidi fil tape.  Bitching aside, some people add carabiners and/or ratchet straps to their tie down (carabiners to the rebar so the rope doesn't fray, ratchet straps to easily tighten the tie-down as it loosens throughout the week).  I don't know what those cost off the top of my head but figure 6 carabiners and 6 ratchet-straps, though there may be a way to use fewer ratchet straps, this is just theory though, I have not actually built it yet to see.  I think I'd rather learn how to do a water knot instead of buying more shit.  Consume consume consume...

As for wallboard, liquid nails, hurricane straps and what not, I could not envision adding more costs onto what this already cost, as if I go with another tarp, or carabiners, or ratchet straps, any one of these will put me over the $600 mark.  And with the right panels, the right tape, the right tie-down anchor system, I don't think hurricane straps and wallboard are necessary.  And I don't need the inside to look pretty, although that would be nice.  I plan to be ogling the sights on the playa, not staring at my walls.  

Vamos a la playa !

Alejandro

[Phil Dirt]

Please! Do not use bungee cord to tie down your panels for transport!
That's not what it's made for, and not surprisingly, not what it's
good for. Bungee cord tie downs will put you at high risk of having
your panels take off and self-destruct along the highway, and maybe
cause an accident in the traffic behind you. I use 1" cam straps
available from NRS.com. Less well designed straps can be found at REI.
They have a load strength of about 1600 lbs, can be adjusted easily,
and can be used as part of your tie down system once the yurt has been
assembled. Most hardware and auto supply stores have ratcheting tie
down straps, which can be used as well for securing your load and tie
down in camp. Or just use the rope you're bringing to make a halo or
guy lines and learn how to tie a trucker's hitch. (Google it) To
protect the edges of your load you can get 90º angled corner
protectors made out of heavy cardboard at any lumber yard. They throw
away hundreds of them, so it's not difficult to get them to provide
you with an ample supply. Barring that, you can make your own from
scrap sheet metal flashing.

I think sheet rock with liquid nails is unnecessary and way too much
weight to add to your load. Your hexayurt is designed to transfer the
weight of the roof (static and dynamic) down from the roof and through
the walls to the ground. Don't get lazy and build it with straight
cuts and tape. The beveled edges are extremely important for the
weight distribution and overall stability of the structure. You don't
need an extra long straight edge to mark your cuts. I just used a
carpenter's chalk line. Measure the end points, stretch the line (you
can use a screw or nail to anchor the end if working alone), snap, and
you have your cut line. And cutting with a box cutter is way too
inefficient and hard work, especially when cutting your bebels. I used
a Skilsaw (with dust mask) and laid the panels out on 8' 2x4s on my
deck. The section cuts go quickly. Then mark your cut line on the
inside of the panels 3/4" from the edge, set the blade angle to 30º
and let the saw do the work. I worked outside because this cutting
produces a lot of dust.

The dust must be removed for any tape to stick. I used a leaf blower
for the loose dust, then paint thinner on a rag to wipe down the fine
dust off the panels. I just used regular duct tape or Gorilla tape on
the edges. Even 3" tape is difficult to span the beveled edges, so I
just laid down a strip on one side then repeated with a strip on the
other.

The aluminum tape is just to prevent the expensive 6" bi-di structural
tape from fire wherever you use it to tape on the inside seams. The
roll I got is a pain in the butt to use because it has a paper backing
that must be removed as the tape is applied. Wherever possible I made
my structural tape seams on the outside of the HY so I wouldn't have
to mess with the foil tape.

I won't be using the bi-di tape to create tape anchors either. I made
gussets out of scrap valley flashing to distribute the pressure of my
tie downs. May add more flashing where the roof line meets the wall.
Will also use scrap flashing on the door to reinforce the hinge and
latch areas. Plan to use 2" toggle bolts with fender washers to
sandwich the wall between the sheet metal at the hinge and latch
stress points.

If you're building a stretch hexayurt you will have four 2'x4'
triangles as scrap. These I have taped together to create two shelves
to hold my small items inside the yurt.

Bill

> 2" is fine, but the temp listing *not* listed on the 2" tape concerned me,

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[Alejandro Moreno]

@Phil Dirt et al,  I appreciate your concern and tips.  Bungees were only to make it home at 10pm at night at 35mph for 1/2 an hour by myself.  I will not be driving up to BM that way.  What I was thinking of doing was taking the 16 x 20 ft tarp with grommets that I purchased, wrapping the stack of panels in that, then tying that to my roof rack with one of the 100' ropes that I purchased.  Then setting our tandem bike down on top of that, with some kind of layer of protection in between the tarp-wrapped panels and the tandem, and also tying the tandem down. Worst case scenario I'll go to my local REI as it's too late to order anything at this point from NRS.com, which is entirely my fault of course.  Good to know though that they can be used as part of the tie-down system.  I'll google trucker's hitch. I'll look for those corner protectors at my local lumber yard too.  

I've never done construction-type work before (regretfully), so I've never "beveled" anything either.  I do have a skilsaw.  Does setting it at 30º automatically take care beveling the edges? 

It seems you would have to alternate the angles, or at least the sides of the panels that you cut your panel on, so as to have one beveled edge wedge tightly and properly against another, like 2 cheese wedges facing each other but then being slid into place tightly, "right cheek to right cheek" so as to have them fit closely and snugly (forgive the kindergarten visual, just don't know of any other way at the moment to explain how to cut and wedge the beveled edges together).  Or am I overthinking this, and simply cut the inside side of the panel edges at 30º, and they'll all fit together nicely? 

"gussets out of scrap valley flashing"  ?  I'll google gussets.  What is scrap valley flashing?

It also sounds like you're using actual hardware to make some kind of metal latch mechanism to close your door.  I haven't seen any mention of this in any of the H13 instruction sheets I've found online, but of course it makes sense.  I'll look for pics of this on other yurt designs to get an idea of what to do.  I was just thinking of using tape to connect the door to the yurt like a catflap, but have it swing inwards  so that the wind won't rip it off.  Sound crazy or could this work as a door hinge?  

Gratefully,

-Alejandro

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Alejandro

[Steve Upstill]

--

One of the very nicest things about life is the way we must regularly stop whatever it is we are doing and devote our attention to eating.

-- Luciano Pavarotti

On Aug 24, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Alejandro Moreno wrote:

@Phil Dirt et al,  I appreciate your concern and tips.  Bungees were only to make it home at 10pm at night at 35mph for 1/2 an hour by myself.  I will not be driving up to BM that way.  What I was thinking of doing was taking the 16 x 20 ft tarp with grommets that I purchased, wrapping the stack of panels in that, then tying that to my roof rack with one of the 100' ropes that I purchased.  Then setting our tandem bike down on top of that, with some kind of layer of protection in between the tarp-wrapped panels and the tandem, and also tying the tandem down. Worst case scenario I'll go to my local REI as it's too late to order anything at this point from NRS.com, which is entirely my fault of course.  Good to know though that they can be used as part of the tie-down system.  I'll google trucker's hitch. I'll look for those corner protectors at my local lumber yard too.  

I've never done construction-type work before (regretfully), so I've never "beveled" anything either.  I do have a skilsaw.  Does setting it at 30º automatically take care beveling the edges? 

The joints between walls, and the joints between wall and ceiling, require a bevel of 30°. The angle between the ceiling triangles requires a bevel of 14 or 15°. yes, setting the saw to those angles does the bevelling nicely. Remember that the long sides of the panels you cut in half to make the roof from should NOT be bevelled, as those butt together to form the triangles. Also, if you're bevelling, it's critical to cut three roof panels on a left-to-right diagonal and the other three on a right-to-left diagonal. Doesn't matter how you interpret that, as long as you wind up with six right triangles of one kind and six of the other. It's the bevelling that makes this matter.

It seems you would have to alternate the angles, or at least the sides of the panels that you cut your panel on, so as to have one beveled edge wedge tightly and properly against another, like 2 cheese wedges facing each other but then being slid into place tightly, "right cheek to right cheek" so as to have them fit closely and snugly (forgive the kindergarten visual, just don't know of any other way at the moment to explain how to cut and wedge the beveled edges together).  Or am I overthinking this, and simply cut the inside side of the panel edges at 30º, and they'll all fit together nicely? 

If you imagine the OUTSIDE of your panels to be the ideal surface (exactly 4x8 walls, 8x8 triangles in the ceilings) with the INSIDE surfaces somewhat smaller, then you should do all bevels taking the absolute minimum of material off the outside surface and all of it off the inside. Do that, and tape the edges well, and your yurt will fit together beautifully.

[Phil Dirt]

Wrapping your panels with a tarp should protect them from the wind and
using your rope for a tie down will work as long as you check your
load and knots every time you stop for a break.

You can remove one of the pedals from your bike with a crescent wrench
so it doesn't poke into the panels, but still a good idea to have at
least 1/4" of plywood or OSB to prevent gouging. Also, find a set of
Allen wrenches an loosen the bolt that holds your handlebar in place.
Then you can turn it sideways so it won't poke your panels in transit.
Then simply realign and tighten the handlebar when you arrive.

Beveling the edges makes the yurt much stronger because there is more
surface area to distribute the wind load. The sum of all angles always
has to add up to 360º, so for a hexayurt you have two 90º angles where
the walls meet the ground, then three 60º angles at the peak and edges
of the roof. When two panels meet to form a 60º angle each is cut at a
bevel of 30º. All bevel cuts are from the inside (paper side) of the
panels. If you mark a line 3/4" from the edge you want to bevel and
set your saw at a 30º angle, your cut will remove just enough foam to
create the bevel without changing the outside dimensions of the panel,
i.e., all the bevel cut is removed from the inside edge. Remember to
wear a dust mask when using a saw. Polyisocyanurate is not something
you want in your lungs.

> ...
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[Spiral Syzygy]

Ratchet-straps! Really, they can't be beat. After using them for
transport, you can use them for tie-downs for the yurt. As things
settle through the week, you can just give the ratchets a pull or two
to snug it back up. It's so much easier than dealing with rope ime.

Spiral

[Steve Upstill]

I've done the math. The roof triangles meet at an angle of about 28°, or 14+ on each bevel, as measured perpendicular to the joint, which is the reference the saw will be working on. The reason it's not 360/6=60 has to do with the tilt of the roof. If the roof triangles were each horizontal in a plane there would be no bevelling at all. If the roof panels were lined up with the wall panels the bevel would be 30. The answer has got to be somewhere in between, right?

Believe me: I spent a significant amount of time working this out until I believed the solution. (You can also see for yourself in SketchUp.)

Cheers,
Steve
--
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
-- Anais Nin