Durable, weatherproof OSB Hexayurt?

[Christopher Fraser]

Hello,

I'm part of a group developing an permaculture / Open Source Ecology project in
Extremadura, Spain.

http://openeland.org/en/

We're organising a two week summer camp where we will have a number of workshops
etc and I'm planning on moving to the site for a few months to get the site ready.

So, I'm wanting to build a structure which will be quick to build which I can
live in for a while. It it works out I may be some more for the camp. I want to
use sustainable (or least recyclable) materials as much as possible and want to
structure to be durable enough to last a few years and be usable all year around
- which I think means it needs to be insulated.

The site is fairly hot during summer (30 degree centigrade plus), but gets cold
over the winter (down to -3 in February when we were camping there!). It's
general fairly dry, with most of the 750mm of annual rainfall happening in
winter and days of 30mm+ rain not uncommon.

I've also been looking at small building designs like these:

http://www.countryplans.com/jshow.com/y2k/listings/3.html
http://www.simplesolarhomes.com/steps-for-building-a-small-solar-home/

I'm also thinking about a Hexyurt, but concerned about getting the weather
proofing and insulation right.

One options is to build insulated panels for the roof and walls. Help, wood, or
cellulose is probably the preferred insulation to be sandwitched between the OSB
on the outside and some other interior board (probably more OSB), but rockwool
is currently about 10% the cost here at the moment (and is apparently partially
made from recycled materials and itself recyclable).

I can visualise how the panel construction for the walls, with vertical 60
degree wedges between the panels sealed with silicone. I'm not completely sure
how the roof would work and would be interested to hear ideas.

One thought is that a good quality of seal between the top of the walls and the
roof could be achieved by a layer of foam that compresses when the roof is put on.

My main concern is water getting in the roof seams. I was thinking I could cover
the whole structure in tar paper, but I don't seem to be able to source it in
the UK or Spain. The plastic membrane equivalents are only UV stable for a few
months.

My next idea is the membrane could go under the OSB. It would be quite a
complicated construction but the only way I can see it working is there's a
strip of plastic under each edge seam, which is allowed to fold into a bit of a
valley and is secured on the inside by two pieces of batten (which would also
form the cavity for the insulation - will be complete pain to cut and fill with
rockwool type insulation).

I'm not sure if a H13 form roof construction would make this easier by only
having two angled roof edges or harder by introducing a horizontal seam.

Compressible foam could also be used between the roof triangles to improve air
tightness. I am thinking about passive heating and cooling ventilation like this:

http://www.simplesolarhomes.com/category/passive-cooling-and-heating/

Anyway, I'm interested to hear ideas. I realise polyisocyanurate insulation
boards would be much more straight forward, but I am keen to avoid it as it's
not widely used or recycled (in Europe at least, as far as I know).

Christopher.

[Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)]

Ah, yes, I've been reading your web site with some interest!

Could I persuade you to permanence? 

We *think* that polyiso + ferrocement is the way to go - extremely durable, multi-decade buildings for very little money, fully insulated, long-term waterproof, rotentproof, sun-proof, bug-proof etc. so rather than building a temporary thing and recycling it, you build a permanent thing which is *very* light on materials (the cement is only 1cm thick or so!) while we evolve a good soy-based insulation foam (it's coming, lots of people are working on it.)

Have you seen the "hexayurt for haiti" doc which describes how to lap the pieces for waterproofness, and seen Dylan Toymaker's insulated panel H13?

Vinay

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http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering
http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision

"In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus

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[Al Razi Masri]

Also a google sketchup model to help you visualise the overlaps http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=ab1e2b545e05ba6919cdfa1d5f3e3e8a&ct=mdsa

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[Lucas González]

Hexayurts in Spain. Hadn't seen that on the email subject!

>two week summer camp where we will have a number of workshops etc

>and I'm planning on moving to the site for a few months to get the site ready.

>quick to build which I can live in for a while.

>sustainable (or least recyclable) materials

>durable enough to last a few years and be usable all year around - which I think means it needs to be insulated.

>summer (30 degree centigrade plus), winter (down to -3 in February

>fairly dry, with most of the 750mm of annual rainfall happening in winter and days of 30mm+ rain not uncommon. 

I've never built a real size hexayurt, just small models. http://imagina-canarias.blogspot.com/search?q=hexayurt

And helped with documentation. http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_H13_Plywood

See if some of that helps?

Maybe the "ferro" part can be cloth? http://www.ferrocement.com/bioFiber/y5-1x2/biofiber_y5.1.es.html

My experience with supplies in the Canaries is not that good.

Managed to find marine plywood, but not the poli-iso panels.

Maybe I don't know what to look for, or where. So if you find them, I'd love to know the Spanish name for it.

Gracias.

Lucas

2012/3/13 Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) <hexa...@gmail.com>

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[Alejandro Moreno]

Chris,

Polyiso boards are indeed "recyclable" in a sense.  You simply repurpose them, i.e. after you break down your yurt, you can use those very same panels in another construction project, like a home, a toolshed, or a chicken coop perhaps, whatever you can think of.  You can even sell it to someone else after you're done with it (I did). 

Many people get stuck in the "it has to be shreddable" thinking mode, thinking that in order to be recyclable, there would need to be some kind of recycling service out there that will somehow pulverize and repurpose the transformed materials. That's not the case.  The polyiso boards are worth more intact than they are shredded or pulverized.

I was going to use my H13 eventually for insulating a chicken coop here at my home that we want to build.  I would've done that but, someone ended up buying my H13 from me to use at Burning Man this year (I can't go).  They said they intend to reuse it many times.  Of course, their idea is to reuse it as a yurt several times. Though there's no reason it can't eventually end up being part of a permanent construction project some day. 

If you do choose to go with polyiso, taking into account your temperature extremes and the length of time your yurt will be used, I would recommend at the very least 1.5" thick panels.  I used 1" thick which was fine for BM, and/or for any short term stay.  For you, definitely 1.5" at the very least.  Of course over there they might get measured in centimeters, though since they're produced in the USA, they may come in inches anyway.

I used the alternative H13 design which uses the Camp Danger Hinge technique for taping the panels together (instead of having to mitre the panels).  I can't honestly say whether the bidirectional filament tape would suffice for your purposes long-term with rain, cold, UV, heat etc., but my gut says it's better to err on the safe side and go with Vinay's suggestions, and use more time-consuming, solid measures to hold your panels together.

And if you can't get a hold of polyiso over there, just go with plywood, Vinay has a video for this too:  http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/plywood-hexayurt-construction-details-1573

Suerte,

-Alejandro

2012/3/13 Lucas González <lucas.go...@gmail.com>

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-Alejandro Moreno S.

GreenMBA, Dominican University of California

Cell (415) 578-8731 

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[Lucas González]

More on ferrocement http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Ferrocement

How light is light? Kilograms per sq meter?

[Morten H. D. Fuglsang]

Hey Chris,

Great project!

Also check out Chads hexayurt/milkbarn here. I believe it's been standing for 3 years (may be wrong). He used roof coating and rolled roof.
http://yurtbuilder.blogspot.com/2012/03/osb-hexayurt-aka-milk-barn.html 

Looking forward to follow your progress. I'd love to hear both the solutions you come up with, and the challenges you overcome (and how you overcome them).

Thanks!
Morten

[chakra/david from golden cafe]

90 degree angles are a heck of a lot easier to work with from a
construction/weatherproofing perspective, and the inside space
although not optimized for surface area to volume seems somehow more
liveable in the long haul.

For a temporary, nomadic and very festival-like week in the windiest
of dusty climates the HY and its variants make really great choices.
Note: I personally have an insulated/reflective canvas yurt-like pole
tent, since I wasn't into the fully polyiso thing.

Otherwise, well, maybe not. If portability and wind tolerance aren't
the highest items on your list I would take everything discussed in
this thread from the perspective of building materials and insulation,
and consider applying it to a more cube-like structure with a wooden
frame.

[Christopher Fraser]

On 13/03/12 15:39, hexa...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> We*think* that polyiso + ferrocement is the way to go - extremely durable,

> multi-decade buildings for very little money, fully insulated, long-term
> waterproof, rotentproof, sun-proof, bug-proof etc. so rather than building
> a temporary thing and recycling it, you build a permanent thing which is
> *very* light on materials (the cement is only 1cm thick or so!) while we
> evolve a good soy-based insulation foam (it's coming, lots of people are
> working on it.)

Soy insulation foam looks very interesting.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure I would want to live in a polyiso + ferrocement building.
I have friend who lived in a concrete flat and hated it - problems with mould,
needing to have windows open in winter etc. I guess if you get the ventilation
right these aren't too much of a problem.

Somme other material issues are I'm not sure where to get polyiso in Spain (OSB
is hard enough!) and secondly I believe in parts of Spain and Portugal wooden
buildings are more easily classified as temporary (though I haven't looked into
the Extremadura building regs).

Anyway, thanks for all the replies everyone! A lot to think about. I'm still not
sure what to build. Because of the waterproofing and water harvesting issues I
think I'm leaning towards square-ish OSB insulated panel hut with an A-frame
roof, rather than a yurt, but need to look at costings and construction details.

Christopher.

PS: We've started announcing details of the summer camp we're organising. If
someone wanted to come and run something about hexayurts you'd be most welcome.

http://openeland.org/open-e-land-camp-2012/

[Christopher Fraser]

On 19/03/12 23:56, Christopher Fraser wrote:
> On 13/03/12 15:39, hexa...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>> We*think* that polyiso + ferrocement is the way to go - extremely durable,
>> multi-decade buildings for very little money, fully insulated, long-term
>> waterproof, rotentproof, sun-proof, bug-proof etc. so rather than building
>> a temporary thing and recycling it, you build a permanent thing which is
>> *very* light on materials (the cement is only 1cm thick or so!) while we
>> evolve a good soy-based insulation foam (it's coming, lots of people are
>> working on it.)

A variation on the above idea without the use of polyiso or cement is an OSB
hexayurt, covered in insulation (shredded newspaper, rockwool etc) and then a
layer of lime and aggregate to seal it.

I came across a material called Secil ecoCORK Lime, which is a Natural Hydraulic
lime mixed with cork aggregate. It's made by Secil Argamassas over the border in
Portugal so not so far from where our project is. It's cheaper and more
insulating than straight lime, so might be an ideal choice.

Christopher.

[Lucas González]

Searched for "insulation" at appropedia, and found http://www.appropedia.org/Thermal_insulation and http://www.appropedia.org/House_insulation

I know nothing about this subject, but if someone collects links etc I can then add them to appropedia.

Unless someone does it faster, of course.

("some play the music, some scrible to catch up" - a non-written booklet on the art of documentation)

Lucas

2012/3/26 Christopher Fraser <chr...@goop.org>

[fsim]

Dear Chris,

May I suggest you use Insulation Cork Board.
Further information can be found on: http://www.bcork.amorim.com/en/constructive-solutions

    Sustainability:       Raw material….just cork,       Natural industrial process….no additives,       Practically unlimited durability….keeping their technical characteristics,       Totally  recyclable,       Free of VOCs

 

     Technical characteristics:     Thermal efficiency ( lambda 0,038 / 0,040 W/mk),      Very good acoustical insulation,      Resistance at 10% compression: 100 Kpa,      Resistance perpendicular to the faces 50 Kpa,      Working temperature between – 180ºC and 120ºC,      Fire resistance Euroclass “E”…..in case of fire no toxic gases emission

 

Quality as per European Norm EN 13170 and other International certifications.

That is why we are proud to say that “Cork is different, naturally!”, we produce sustainable building materials for sustainable construction.

 

Cork is an environmentally friendly raw material, 100% natural, renewable, recyclable and endogenous with a high application potential in the construction industry. Among the many technical advantages of using cork, its thermal and acoustic insulation performance is worth a special mention.


Kind regards,
Francisco

fsimoe...@amorim.com

[Chita Jing]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 7:12 AM, fsim <mori...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Chris,

May I suggest you use Insulation Cork Board.
Further information can be found on: http://www.bcork.amorim.com/en/constructive-solutions

     I don't want to single out this company because so very very VERY many companies do it -- I just want to say that I usually don't read most ads any more when they are coy about the cost of what they are selling. It's the same reason I buy so much online: my time and money are precious. I can't go through 123 pages of bragging to get to a Form that basically collects ALL my data - so they can spam me with phone calls and emails. Most companies who are (or want to be in) the alternative-construction business really don't care about small users and their pricing reflects this focus.

    I've been into alternative building for more than thirty years now (I graduated from Shelter Institute in 1978) and I've seen that MOST of the things being touted in the 70s did not work out as planned. Especially the highest tech, leading edge, pioneering hardware. (Active solar is a bust, in my opinion.) Technology in general has not made much of a dent in most of the fundamental issues - and so many towns have institutionalized these mistakes, there won't be a "cure" for the energy waste in our lifetime. Cities are built for cars. Houses face the wrong way. Families are growing in size again, as the economy fails to provide enough living for each generation to have a private home. 

    Soooo... cork attached to layers of insulation attached to walls made of Unobtainium - isn't as interesting as a single photo essay starring a pudgy guy who basically takes the camera away from his girlfriend as he shoots with poor lighting, all the while blabbing a pile of run-on sentences -- well, I'll watch THAT a few times on YouTube and try to follow up the links. 

   Insulation cork board - AND EVERY OTHER THING TO DO WITH MAKING THESE HEXAYURTS  OR ANY ALTERNATIVE BUILDING - must pass the single pivotal threshold test: is it affordable? Until that question is answered, nothing else really matters. 

   Whetting our appetites has been a pasttime of the alternative building movement for decades now and it's time to take a step back and check out buildability for real people whose economic security is circling the drain. 

   How about showing us some videos of a hexayurt built using your product? Surely a large company can afford examples? How much do you spend on trade shows? R&D? Sales reps?

[Francisco Simões]

Dear Chita,

I'll explain the idea when I read Chris email:
1- Project is in Extremadura - Spain. Cork forest exists there and is extremly important there.
2- I read he was thinking of mortar with cork granules in order to insulate the building as it would need to last a while longer than initially planned...
3- He also refers mineral wool so the suggestion to cork seemed natural to me. It is required less thickness despite similar lamda values, because cork has a higher inertia.
4- Cork is really not unobtanium, it really works great, it is tested for more than 50 years and does not loose its insulation properties during the time.

For your pivotal question about price you are right at some level. Cork is not a free product and is more expensive than EPS for instance. However it fullfils his requirements on his initial request: sustainable (or least recyclable) and durable. So, at the end, the material will be local! Sustainable! and not from outer space like the great unobtanium that makes wonders...

Excuse me if by anyhow I misinterpreted the request. For an alternative in terms of building there are many "new" trends in alternative building: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Y_ctwhNso

Regards,
Francisco

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