Core Business Sub-Committee

[Sara Thomas]

Evening all,

I'm Sara, & I'm chairing the Core Business Sub-Committee, for which
read (mostly) Catering & Bars. There will (initially) be some overlap
with Finance, as is the nature of the beast. Part of my role then
will be to ensure that we're working together profitably. (no pun
intended. well, ok, a little bit intended. anyway.)

MY RESPONSIBLITIES
As chair I'll arrange and run meetings of the sub-committee - see
below for how to get involved. I would prefer to have face to face
meetings, but discussion here will also be taken into account, so if
you're unable to attend these please be assured that I am listening.
Once I get an idea of numbers I'll look into an appropriate meeting
venue.

I'll also take responsibility (insofar as that is appropriate) for
final preparation of such documents as are described below, which I
believe should/could be presented to the University as supplements
to / part of the business plan.

I also hope, with other members of the Committee, to get a good idea
of what the state of the building is as soon as is reasonably
practical, as this will obviously have a bearing on the sub-
committee's work.

INITIAL INVOLVEMENT
The theme for initial discussions will be Best Practice.

In terms of and in addition to contributions to a finished business
plan, there are a few concrete items which need to be addressed: the
state of the licence, creating operational / best practice procedures,
creating staff training packs, addressing the scope of catering
provision, job descriptions for management positions.

As time goes on there will also be room for things like menu
suggestions, particular products you'd like to see, that kind of
thing. For the moment though I'd like to concentrate on the nuts &
bolts of running the operation, and to that end --->

PLEASE GET INVOLVED
If you have experience in licensing, catering or bar work/management
then I'd love to hear from you - please comment on this thread so I
can get an idea of who's interested. If you used the club on a
regular basis and want to tell me what you'd like to see / wouldn't
like to see then I'd also like to hear from you!

In line with the other committee chairs i'm going to upload a document
to this group in which I want to hear ideas - this is a bit of a
splattergun approach but trust me, there's method in't.

I'll also upload a nuts & bolts doc - anything anyone wants to add
under these headings please feel free.

These will be a way to guage areas of concern, let everyone have a
say, and from which to pull agendas for the face-to-face meetings.

Tak the care - hope to hear from you!

[Sara Thomas]

oh - and if you used the club on an irregular basis i'd also like to
hear from you! why didn't you use it more? etc etc.

[Sara Thomas]

I've set up the 2 documents on Google Docs - one for general comments,
one for nuts & bolts stuff.

Email me if you'd like access. (email address can be gotten by
hovering over my name in these messages.)

Cheers,
Sara

[Seumas Bates]

Thanks Sara.

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 19, 8:28 pm, Sara Thomas <sa.tho...@live.com> wrote:

[snip]

> INITIAL INVOLVEMENT
> The theme for initial discussions will be Best Practice.
>
> In terms of and in addition to contributions to a finished business
> plan, there are a few concrete items which need to be addressed: the
> state of the licence, creating operational / best practice procedures,
> creating staff training packs, addressing the scope of catering
> provision, job descriptions for management positions.

I would re-order the above. The licence should come first, but after
that I think you should address the scope of catering provision, as
that has an impact on the other areas.

As I have stated elsewhere, I think the idea of providing catering
from 9am to 9pm is not practical, and was one of the reasons for the
large debt. I think catering should be restricted to lunch-time, with
snacks in the early evening. That is something for various sub-
committees to look at. But if the Club does contract in this area, it
changes the staffing requirements, including management.

Frankly, I think that having a 'General Manager' and some other
managers is too grandiose for a wee place like the Club. We're not a
big place like QM or GUU where a large management structure is
required. (And, let's face it, it's not worked in the Club.) A simple
structure consisting of a Club Manager, a Catering Supervisor, a
Senior (Bar) Chargehand would do, with the addition of other
Chargehands depending on opening hours and licensing law requirements.
The Club Manager would have specific responsibilities for the bar, and
for cleaning staff. This would cut down on management costs.

Creating staff training packs - I think all that is required are those
required under licensing and hygiene legislation.

Creating operational / best practice procedures - 're-creating' the
procedures would probably be more accurate :-) as from what has been
said elsewhere, a lot of procedures have fallen into disuse.
Which leads me to a question, which I might as well ask here. It was
stated somewhere that one of the many things that was not being done
was recording the bar wastage. I assume that meant, inter alia, drink
poured off at opening time, drink poured off when the pipes were
cleaned, waste in the drip trays, staff drinks, duty drinks. Surely
the stocktaker had something to say about these figures not being
provided?

John

[Sara Thomas]

Hi John,

First thing's first, sorry for the late reply to your post.

Scope of the catering's certainly a priority, and I appreciate your
comments.

From my experience working in venues though I'd say that it is
important that we have a general manager, someone who takes overall
responsibility for those areas of day to day management. Just because
the club is small doesn't meant that you can cut down on management
responsibility - certain duties still need to be fulfilled. Certainly
a large and sprawling management structure isn't needed, and I would
reassure you that this is something that was discussed during the main
committee's first meeting, with particular reference to chargehand
positions etc.

Staff operating procedures / training / best practice - things like
wastage, line cleaning etc as I can see you're aware require
allowances for the purposes of accurate stocktaking. I plan to put
together, using the expertise and experience at hand, a form of
operational document which would encompass these things.

Cheers!
Sara

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 24, 9:04 pm, Sara Thomas <sa.tho...@live.com> wrote:

> From my experience working in venues though I'd say that it is
> important that we have a general manager, someone who takes overall
> responsibility for those areas of day to day management.  Just because
> the club is small doesn't meant that you can cut down on management
> responsibility - certain duties still need to be fulfilled.

I agree with the latter point; I'm just saying that the title of
general manager is more appropriate to a larger place than to a small
club. The title of club manager still implies overall responsibility.
Salary expectations of applicants will probably be different depending
on the title.

> Staff operating procedures / training / best practice - things like
> wastage, line cleaning etc as I can see you're aware require
> allowances for the purposes of accurate stocktaking.  I plan to put
> together, using the expertise and experience at hand, a form of
> operational document which would encompass these things.

Bits of such a document probably still exist in the Club. I've
probably still got the original 'ullage sheet' template - the form
that I created for recording wastage. If anyone's got an HP 9020 I
could print it :-) Seriously, I probably have copies that I could
scan and send to you. I'd also be interested in knowing what
information the last stocktaker provided.
Feel free to take this to e-mail.

John

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 19, 8:39 pm, Sara Thomas <sa.tho...@live.com> wrote:
> oh - and if you used the club on an irregular basis i'd also like to
> hear from you!  why didn't you use it more? etc etc.

No atmosphere owing to a severe lack of customers, unfriendly bar
staff, mediocre beer - though not a mediocre price.

John

[Chris Young]

I have to disagree about catering provision.

When I did use the club, more often than not it was so I could save time by working and eating in the same place. Without the catering, there is little point to the club from my perspective. I need somewhere I can work/write without having to take an hour out to go somewhere else (where else?) for a meal. And I wouldn't use the club for quizzing or socialising either unless I could get something to eat. I don't think the club is economically viable without evening catering of some type.

This does not mean an extensive menu is required, or even kitchen staff. It would be perfectly possible to have a smallish range of pre-cooked meals available in microwavable containers, like at Cookies carry-out on Hope Street, ready to be nuked in a matter of minutes. (This could include lunchtime leftovers. If necessary, a reserve could be kept in the freezer.)  (I would hope that the plastic containers could be re-used, or non-plastic alternatives such as waxed card could be sourced.)

Practically, I don't know where a microwave would be best sited, but I think there must be scope to have a small one in the bar area, maybe to the left of the dumb waiter.

Whatever is decided, I must repeat that I am extremely skeptical that any business plan which omits evening catering would be credible. When the club was busy, it was busy because people were ordering food and then staying on - or having a drink and staying on because they knew they could order food.

John

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[Norman Gray]

Sara, hello.

On 2010 Mar 19, at 13:39, Sara Thomas wrote:

> oh - and if you used the club on an irregular basis i'd also like to
> hear from you! why didn't you use it more? etc etc.

I use the sporadically during the day for work chats which for one reason or other (such as informality or the desire for coffee) seem more comfortable there rather than in my or someone else's office.

Most of the times I've been in the last few years has been in the evenings for drink with other from our group or department. Incidentally, this is about the only time I use the club's catering, since as Chris Young pointed out, the fact that folk know they can get some food there makes them more willing to go for a drink without blowing their evening.

See you,

Norman

--
Norman Gray : http://nxg.me.uk

[Omar Kooheji]

I use the club exclusively in the evening, and I partake in the catering pretty much every time I go there. In my experience the catering facility has been quite busy almost every evening I've used it. there is normally a rush for food at about 6ish which I try to avoid.

I think when we reopen someone should keep track of what is ordered when, probably using a log book system or something like that (Or this info could be taken from the till?) This will show when the club is busy and when it's not and allow whomever is in charge of catering to perform adequate work force management.

[Omar Kooheji]

I think we need to conduct some sort of survey of the membership to find out whether people need/want the facilities in the evening.

It is all well and good listening to people saying the place was mobbed at the evening or "I never saw anyone order food" but that data is inherently subjective. just because you and your mates never ordered food in the evening does not mean that it does not make good business sense to provide catering in the evening, and just because one person always comes in and orders curly fries every Friday after his 3pm lecture does not mean that the catering is booming. We can't only open when people are there, because that would require the ability to see the future, what we can do is look at cold hard figures and say yeah we make money in these hours. often enough to justify opening during them.

It would be fine to open catering during some off peak times, if they are offset by the peak times and we occasionally get in the odd person who covers our costs. We are there afterall to provide a service and not make a profit. however we can't be seen to be losing money. So we reduce the staff during those hours.

All this is stuff that a CATERING MANAGER would be able to figure out.

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 25, 3:21 pm, Chris Young <ch...@chrisyoung.org.uk> wrote:

> I have to disagree about catering provision.

[snip]

> This does not mean an extensive menu is required, or even kitchen staff. It
> would be perfectly possible to have a smallish range of pre-cooked meals
> available in microwavable containers, like at Cookies carry-out on Hope
> Street, ready to be nuked in a matter of minutes. (This could include
> lunchtime leftovers. If necessary, a reserve could be kept in the freezer.)
> (I would hope that the plastic containers could be re-used, or non-plastic
> alternatives such as waxed card could be sourced.)
>
> Practically, I don't know where a microwave would be best sited, but I think
> there must be scope to have a small one in the bar area, maybe to the left
> of the dumb waiter.

Some years ago we looked at providing catering in the evening by means
of pre-cooked meals in microwavable containers. At one of the licensed
trade exhibitions I attended (ScotHot, I forget which year), one
company had an extensive range of microwavable meals. Basically, you
took the meal out of the freezer, upturned it into a ceramic
microwavable dish, and cooked it in the microwave for a few minutes.
The ceramic dishes were re-usable; the plastic containers were not.
There was a range of about 30 meals, including IIRC 5 vegetarian
dishes, 3 or 4 fish dishes, and I can't remember what all the rest
were. I sampled some at the exhibition - they were, IMHO, very good.

The reason we didn't put them on was simple - whilst we had a
microwave behind the bar, we did not have a freezer, and we could not
find a small freezer that would fit behind the bar.

I don't know if the supplier is still in business, but I can probably
find out.

Another thing that comes to mind is when the Brewery Tap first opened,
it did provide evening meals. These were prepared at lunchtime, and
blast-frozen. They were then nuked in the evening as required. They
were very good, and thus very popular. No catering staff were required
in the evening.

Basically, I'm not arguing with Chris on this issue.

John

(ps - Chris - I'll see you in the Panopticon soon; we can discuss this
further face-to-face.)

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 25, 4:08 pm, Omar Kooheji <omarkooh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> I think when we reopen someone should keep track of what is ordered when,
> probably using a log book system or something like that (Or this info could
> be taken from the till?) This will show when the club is busy and when it's
> not and allow whomever is in charge of catering to perform adequate work
> force management.

As I said elsewhere, this information should be easily available from
the till. Maybe not what is ordered, but it is easy to keep track of
sales in different 'departments', if you like. An hourly till 'X'
reading would give the required information - the value of drinks,
food, crisps etc, cigarettes, and any other heading you like, per
hour, or per recording period. I suggested, regarding catering hours,
that such information should be recorded for the periods 0900 - 1200,
1200 - 1400, 1400 - 1700, 1700 - 1900, 1900 - 2100 (or something like
that).

John

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 25, 4:22 pm, Omar Kooheji <omarkooh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> what we can do is look at cold

> hard figures and say yeah we make money in these hours. often enough to
> justify opening during them.

I agree - we need the figures. Once access to the building is
regained, it will be interesting - and useful - to see what figures
are available - if any. I'm thinking of till rolls, and other factual
information.

John

[lynn.mcb]

John, re: catering 9-9.
As Omar suggests, a survey of the members to establish when they want
catering provision is something we intend to carry out along with
ongoing monitoring of what times the facility is being used/bringing
in the most revenue.
I think it's worth pointing out that having an operation that runs
from 9-9 does not necessarily entail having a dramatically higher
wages bill than one that operates from, say 12-3. The latter would
require a bigger team working from 9-4, and it makes sense to spread
out the work required for the busy period (ie 12-3) for a number of
reasons:

1. the longer your kitchen is open for business, the more money it can
pull in. (Seems kind of obvious)
2. operationally, you spread the demand on equipment, space and
manpower to make the quality of your products sustainable.
3. a team who frantically spend the morning on one goal ie getting
ready for a short, intensive service, do not have time to take care
properly of things like temperature control, stock management, proper
cleaning of equipment, menu development, menu costing and the quality
of the product. etc.etc.

At the end, the two cooks at HRC were both working from 9-3.30, which
is just daft. The reason evening catering wasn't successful may be
entirely down to the fact that KPs were left to run what should have
been a profitable, popular and reliable part of the business.

L

[Thomas Coles]

Hi all,

there have been some questioning on the Facebook page concerning Saturday and Sunday openings so I'm putting in a question here. I personally didn't use the Club at these times (so I am not even aware if it was open in the past). What is the history here, was / will it be viable to have weekend openings? It strikes me that Sunday especially would be a money sink.

In general, along side catering hours, what is the state-of-play concerning opening hours? Some places seem to go for 'as long as we're licenced', not sure this is the best approach.

Cheers,

Tom

[Chris Young]

I used to find it most inconvenient that the HRC wasn't open at weekends during the day. It would have been handy for post-gym refreshment. But there may not be a proven business case for it, at least in the first instance.

I think weekend opening may be a good idea at certain times, e.g. around graduation, and maybe see how it goes. Crucially, communication with the membership about opening hours would help. I never knew until I turned up that the building was closed, on so many occasions.

[Seumas Bates]

It is a great shame we don't have some form of large screen TV on
which we could show sports - an obvious way to get people in the door
at the weekend. That's a thought for the future however.

Having been around campus at the weekend many times it certainly feels
dead. That being said, I don't know how many other post-grads etc.
were also thinking the same thing. Chicken and egg perhaps?
Certainly I think opening around peak essay-writing / exam season
might be feasible but I would need some convincing about mid-term.

On 30 Mar, 18:11, Chris Young <ch...@chrisyoung.org.uk> wrote:
> I used to find it most inconvenient that the HRC wasn't open at weekends
> during the day. It would have been handy for post-gym refreshment. But there
> may not be a proven business case for it, at least in the first instance.
>
> I think weekend opening may be a good idea at certain times, e.g. around
> graduation, and maybe see how it goes. Crucially, communication with the
> membership about opening hours would help. I never knew until I turned up
> that the building was closed, on so many occasions.
>

> On 30 March 2010 18:03, Thomas Coles <tomco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > there have been some questioning on the Facebook page concerning Saturday
> > and Sunday openings so I'm putting in a question here. I personally didn't
> > use the Club at these times (so I am not even aware if it was open in the
> > past). What is the history here, was / will it be viable to have weekend
> > openings? It strikes me that Sunday especially would be a money sink.
>
> > In general, along side catering hours, what is the state-of-play concerning
> > opening hours? Some places seem to go for 'as long as we're licenced', not
> > sure this is the best approach.
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Tom
>

> >> hetheringtonclub-g...@googlegroups.com<hetheringtonclub-gene­ral%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> >> .
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>
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> Democrat), both at 126 Fulton Street, Glasgow G13 1ER.
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[Sarah]

So what happened to our big TV then? It used to be in the upstairs
bar, not that long ago. I think that it may have been moved when the
wallpaper was redone and not put back again. I bet it's still around
somewhere.

[Norman Gray]

Seumas, hello.

On 2010 Mar 30, at 21:03, Seumas Bates wrote:

> It is a great shame we don't have some form of large screen TV on
> which we could show sports

An excellent idea. As long as the TV's in the basement.

Norman

Hmm: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TV-B-Gone-universal-remote-control-television/dp/B0022Q8CIC/ref=sr_1_2/275-8167809-3601565?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1270028142&sr=1-2

[Seumas Bates]

Ha! And once we've got the TV sorted we can bring in a beer keg and
some hooting frat boys.

On 31 Mar, 10:38, Norman Gray <nor...@astro.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
> Seumas, hello.
>
> On 2010 Mar 30, at 21:03, Seumas Bates wrote:
>
> > It is a great shame we don't have some form of large screen TV on
> > which we could show sports
>
> An excellent idea.  As long as the TV's in the basement.
>
> Norman
>

> Hmm:http://www.amazon.co.uk/TV-B-Gone-universal-remote-control-television...

[Omar Kooheji]

I think it used to be open on Saturday evenings but it wasn't overly busy. this could be solved by having events on that people might want to go to. I know I used to go on a Saturday for a quiet pint.

Please please please don't show sports and if you do do so in on bar and not the other... It's good to have somewhere you can run away from the sports.  

> Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk

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[Seumas Bates]

Absolutely, but if showing sports in one bar makes it financially
viable to have the building open (and thus the ability to have a
quieter drink in the other bar) then I think that's the best of both
worlds.

On 1 Apr, 13:25, Omar Kooheji <omarkooh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I think it used to be open on Saturday evenings but it wasn't overly busy.
> this could be solved by having events on that people might want to go to. I
> know I used to go on a Saturday for a quiet pint.
>
> Please please please don't show sports and if you do do so in on bar and not
> the other... It's good to have somewhere you can run away from the sports.
>

> On 31 March 2010 11:19, Seumas Bates <seumas.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ha! And once we've got the TV sorted we can bring in a beer keg and
> > some hooting frat boys.
>
> > On 31 Mar, 10:38, Norman Gray <nor...@astro.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Seumas, hello.
>
> > > On 2010 Mar 30, at 21:03, Seumas Bates wrote:
>
> > > > It is a great shame we don't have some form of large screen TV on
> > > > which we could show sports
>
> > > An excellent idea.  As long as the TV's in the basement.
>
> > > Norman
>
> > > Hmm:
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/TV-B-Gone-universal-remote-control-television...
>
> > > --
> > > Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
>
> > --
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[Morag Hunter]

It was always open on Saturday nights. In the good old days (before
Subcity and the like) the CoM used to put on events that were for the
members, by the members. And these were very successful. Of course,
this was back in the good old days. Back in those wonderful days.

However, this fell away (mainly, it has to be said, as some of the
staff resented the fact that members of the CoM were doing for free
what said staff felt they should be paid for doing). Once this
happened, the Club became a quiet place. We did not go there. as the
staff were so unfriendly.

But I am not allowed to say this, am I - it is against what the new
CoM allows.

The problem is, though all of you are very well-meaning, you are doing
exactly what you accused the last CoM of.

That is - you are running away with your own agenda without letting
the membership know what you are doing.

Good for Tom for trying to open up a forum for all of us. I agree.

Seumas says that CoM meetings are open to all of us - but he does not
tell us when they are.

Well, the way you are proceeding, all discussions are moot.

RIP, HRC

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/hetheringtonclub-general?hl=en-GB.-Hide quoted text -

[Thomas Coles]

Hi Morag,

I appreciate the issues you've raised, but I do think you are being slightly unfair.

The great thing about this sort of forum is that you *can* say exactly what you like, and we can't stop you. You've just done it. Member/staff relationship will be an issue we raise, consider and manage. If what you're saying is true, then it is not the way the club should be arranged in the future.

I agree the CoM meetings haven't been well publicised, and should be more so. However we have continually made options available for people to interact and put their point across, and have had some great ideas put forward, but it is always going to be a small group of people who do most of the work. That's what they were elected to do, and what they committed to do.

We understand that a lot of people simply want somewhere pleasant, friendly, on campus with a postgrad feel to have a coffee/meal/drink, and don't really care about the practicalities beyond walking in and paying. Those are in fact our core market, the majority of our members, and good on them. Without the club's physical presence, the HRC doesn't matter to them, and it shouldn't. We're looking at ways to make causal and less casual involvement with the running of the club, so that the nostalgia people feel becomes practical and ongoing support: as you say, its the only way we'll guarantee that nothing like this will happen again.

We all understand the anger caused by the way the club has been managed in the past - and how much of that has passed onto the new CoM - I also understand that people never trust people in what is seen as a position of power. But in the end we have nothing to gain except getting the club back, we are working without any guarantees, we don't get any money or position, and we need all the help we can get.

I'm sorry your so downbeat, but its not over yet. We'd appreciate your input on all the committees' issues.

Anyway, off to work.

Tom

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[Seumas Bates]

Thanks for your reply Tom, however I entirely refute the allegations
you make Morag.

We are entirely committed to taking on board the suggestions and
wishes of the membership, and counter to what you accuse we have made
every effort to reach out and be inclusive. Both this forum and the
Facebook group have so far generated some very productive debate,
largely led by non-CoM members. We have also founded Sub-Committees
which ordinary members can choose to sit on directly should they so
choose. If publicity for the main CoM meetings is an issue then we can
certainly work on that, however we have so far only had two meetings
of that nature, and both of these meetings have had to be set up on a
rather ad-hoc nature due to necessity and circumstance.

As to your apparent annoyance with regard to the censorship of
personal attacks on former Staff members; I am without regret. Conduct
in the Club was expected to be civilized and mature, and this forum is
no different.

This being said, the forum is a place for debate and membership input,
and if you wish to propose a suggestion through which we can change in
order to conduct better practice I would be genuinely interested to
hear it.

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/hetheringtonclub-general?hl=en-GB.-Hidequoted text -

[JohnEwing]

On Apr 3, 7:21 am, Thomas Coles <tomco...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> I agree the CoM meetings haven't been well publicised, and should be more so.

A few minutes ago I found the document giving the agenda for a CoM
meeting today. The posting of the agenda was timed at 06:19 am -
timezone not mentioned. Two points:
Regardless of the timezone, that is not much notice.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the agenda did not state where
the meeting was going to take place.

John

[Morag Hunter]

<snip>

If publicity for the main CoM meetings is an issue then we can
> certainly work on that, however we have so far only had two meetings
> of that nature, and both of these meetings have had to be set up on a
> rather ad-hoc nature due to necessity and circumstance.

Well, it seems you should. Holding secret meetings (and what,ever you
say about "necessity and circumstance" this is what you have done), is
not satisfactory.

You talk a good talk, Seumas, but you are all talk. It's easy to come
in, as you have, and make big promises about the new HRC. But, so
far, you have been no more open than the old CoM. And, unlike them,
you are not allowing any cricticism of the bad points of the way the
Club was in the past. Yes, you will slate the old CoM and Management
on the Facebook page, but we are not allowed to talk about bad staff,
it seems. And there were bad staff. I am not being
uncivilized or immature to say this, and I resent the implication that
I was.

Do I come across as being annoyed? Well, that is because I am.

[MarionGilchrist]

Bravo Morag!

Someone must stand up for the membership, that membership bitter and
twisted by necessity and circumstance.

That same membership that were on and off the CoM over the years, that
membership who escaped being banned from the club on technicalities,
that membership who tried and failed to block democratic change at the
EGM, and ultimately that membership who contributed to the HRC being
the deflated bouncy castle it has become.

Why be constructive Morag, when you can be critical?

I call on the CoM for full transparency, they must advertise CoM
meetings better, they must engage the membership better, if only to
use that democratic validity to neutralise the poison weeping from the
HRC's wounds.

It would not have been like this in my day. See you at the next CoM
meeting Morag, if we get to know where and when it is?

Marion

[Paul Connor]

It was Xuan-Linh who first proposed that the boards not be spammed
when trying to sort out a date and venue for the next meeting. This
part looks to have been followed up successfully. The further point
that was made about posting those details here once sorted has been
less successful.

Might I suggest that the secretary takes ownership of this by creating
a DVNM thread, perhaps read-only, that is updated after each meeting,
and a corresponding systematic process applies to posting prior
minutes to either a dedicated read-only thread or as a file upload. I
think establishing a regular procedure such as this would help ensure
that it gets done, and does so in good time.

[Seumas Bates]

Thank you Paul for a more constructive tone. This topic was brought up
in the CoM, and we hope to have a regular meeting time and place
established before the next meeting; this way people will always be
aware of when and where a meeting will be without having to check the
forum.

John, to address your concern; the agenda went up as soon as we
established when the meeting was to be held. I take your point that
the location was missed from it in error. Naturally we are aware this
is not best practice but at times this cannot be helped.

As to this discussion generally, we seemed to have reached a
conclusion in that we have identified a particular problem and will
take immediate action to remedy it, additionally, this seems to have
little to do with 'Core Business', the topic of this thread. Therefore
I consider this matter closed. If there is more to be said on it then
I encourage whomever has any further points to make to create a new
thread so that our Core Business sub-committee can return to the task
at hand.

Morag, as you are clearly unsatisfied with my reply and solution I
encourage you to attend the next CoM meeting which I assure you will
be advertised on this forum well in advance. If you are unable to make
this meeting, or you wish to express your views sooner than this I
would be happy to meet with you in person to better understand your
point of view and the reasons behind your passionately held views.

Marion, suffice to say that comments such as this will not be
tolerated on this forum. I take an equally dim view on personal
attacks on our membership as I do with regard to personal attacks on
Staff members.

Constructive criticism based on past mistakes is essential to the
proper development of the club, that goes without saying. However the
tone of this discussion gets us nowhere. I hope we can re-focus back
onto the construction of a viable business plan, and the successful re-
opening of the Club.

[Thomas Coles]

I don't think we are ever likely to become a venue for watching live sports:

1. Sky subscription costs.

2. Outlay required for a proper big-screen set-up.

3. Detrimental effect on membership.

However people do seem to require some sort of relaxed form of sport viewership, a television in a non-central area, or in a division of the bar, which would never be loud or offensive enough to the normal functioning of the bar and tuned to free-to-air games. This seems suitable. I don't think anything that requires major financial or time investment is viable. The opportunity to check on a score out the corner of your eye is. Best of both worlds: people don't leave to watch a game if they want to, people don't leave because a game is being paid. If people want the 'full experience' (cinematic screen and screaming) there are venues nearby that we could never compete with - we are not a sports bar.

Though personally I find that my state of evolution means I will stare at anything that involves people passing around an object of desire, be it fruit or footballs. I require blinkers or the people I'm meant to be having a conversation with despair.

Tom

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[David Russell]

Seumas,

Statements of this nature are in my opinion symptomatic of the lack of
openness of which you and the new CoM have been accused (whether
fairly or not). Attempting to appoint yourself as the sole arbiter of
what criticism is 'constructive', and demanding that those who comment
on their club do so on your terms, will not attract more people to
participate in the efforts to get a viable HRC back up and running.

Regards

David R

PS: I should probably add that I have no knowledge of the specific
issues to which you, Morag and Marion have referred in this discussion
(other than the late and incomplete CoM agenda, which you have already
acknowledged should not be repeated) and thus have no personal stake
in them.

On Apr 4, 12:37 pm, Seumas Bates <seumas.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (...)

[Morag Hunter]

<snip>

> Why be constructive Morag, when you can be critical?

Well, Marion, sometimes being critical can also be constructive.

[Michael Comerford]

Right, I should have entered this debate earlier and taken the sting out of it, so apologies for that. 

As Secretary it's my job to ensure agendas and meetings are publicised properly, and I take full responsibility for the past three meetings not being properly accessible to the membership. 

I'll say a little about the most recent meeting - We weren't attempting a secret meeting; with it being the easter holiday a lot of the rooms across campus were locked (or at least the ones that members of the CoM have access too) holding a CoM wen you don't have a building is a tad more difficult, the venue was only confirmed on Saturday and was not ideal (it was one of lecture theatres in the Kelvin Building that I have access too), because to enter the building out of hours you need swipe card access - not just id card swipe access, the building has its own system.

Minutes for all 3 CoM Meetings were taken and as soon as they are ratified by the CoM, I will publish them to this forum.

You will see when you have access to CoM 3 Minutes that the issue of a regular CoM Meeting in a accessible location has been an agenda item. This is regular slot is likely to be a mid-week evening. I have information on the CoM's availability times and should have a suitable time pinned down in the next 48hrs.

So the difficulties with CoM meetings so far is mostly down to my getting to grips wit the job of Hon. Sec., struggling with venues and struggling to find a time when as many Committee Members can make it. We're three meetings and we'll have this situation sorted by the fourth. I hope you'll bear with me. 

Paul thanks for your suggestion I will create a DVNM thread (read-only as you advise) and make sure the details of CoM meetings are posted there.   

Also as Seumas indicated I think we've Hijacked the core-business sub-committee thread, so further comments should move to a new thread.

Michael 

[Norman Gray]

Morag, hello.

On 2010 Apr 4, at 01:12, Morag Hunter wrote:

> And, unlike them,
> you are not allowing any cricticism of the bad points of the way the
> Club was in the past. Yes, you will slate the old CoM and Management
> on the Facebook page, but we are not allowed to talk about bad staff,
> it seems. And there were bad staff.

And what possible utility would this criticism have?

The thing about 'the way the Club was in the past' is that ... it's in the past. If they were slaughtering virgins in the basement it wouldn't make any difference to the current _sole_ project, which is to create a sufficiently plausible business plan, with sufficiently plausible personnel in place, to persuade the university central management to resume its past support for the club.

We all of us have experience of how the club was run in the past, through multiple generations of committees, more and less effective, who faced greater and lesser challenges. That means that successive drafts of the forward-looking business plan will receive commentary from an experienced and articulate community of members.

We can all look forward to that, I think.

Best wishes,

Norman

[Thomas Coles]

I agree.

For some of the initial meething's agendas I tried to table a motion to declare that the meeting "is not a truth-and-reconciliation committee". Its never made it onto the bill, perhaps because its a little authoritarian (and therefore fairly not considered, and I have withdrawn the attempts, though I stand by the sentiment). But I agree completely with Norman's statement of pragmatism. When the stakes are so high (the future of the club) it seems silly to get waylaid by issues where the stakes are so low and unalterable (who to blame).

There is definitely questions that should be asked and learned from about the past. But the place for these is not the threads on business planning, where people are attempting to put together a viable future for the club.

This thread is a good idea for people with issues to raise about past and future issues of apportioning blame. However I hope we can all work with goodwill towards the practical work going on with building a business plan, in those places.

I will be as active in this thread as I am in the others.

Cheers.

Tom

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[JohnEwing]

On Apr 5, 4:13 pm, Thomas Coles <tomco...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> There is definitely questions that should be asked and learned from about

> the past. But the place for these is not the threads on business planning,
> where people are attempting to put together a viable future for the club.

This exactly the place for some of this discussion. The mistakes made
in the past must be identified, and learned from. Many of the lessons
learned - if they are - will affect the business plan.

For instance: The draft business plan lists a few things that went
wrong, in section 2. One of the main points listed there is 'Lack of a
clear outline of the responsibilities of staff and committee'. If the
Committee were to do things that they used to do, e.g. clear the
building at the end of the night and lock up, take memberships, police
the door, and many other things, then staff wages would be reduced,
with an effect on the business plan. However, in recent years the Club
has appeared to become some sort of benevolent society to employ more
staff. This has to be addressed in any future planning.

Also, the draft plan only identifies some mistakes and problems, most
of which are minor. I think that there are other, more fundamental,
mistakes and problems that are yet to be addressed.

John

[JohnEwing]

On Mar 28, 12:37 pm, "lynn.mcb" <lynn_mcbur...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> John, re: catering 9-9.
> As Omar suggests, a survey of the members to establish when they want
> catering provision is something we intend to carry out

Fair enough.

>along with
> ongoing monitoring of what times the facility is being used/bringing
> in the most revenue.

To do that requires having the facility available all the time - which
is a waste of money as far as I can see. That's why I suggested that
the information should be available in tills rolls, or in the bar day
book, if procedures were followed.

> I think it's worth pointing out that having an operation that runs
> from 9-9 does not necessarily entail having a dramatically higher
> wages bill than one that operates from, say 12-3.  The latter would
> require a bigger team working from 9-4,

What sort of operation was being run? When we ran on the basis of
providing meals at lunchtime (12 - 2) the catering staff started at 10
at the earliest. People were served fairly quickly - not the 40 minute
wait that someone mentioned.

> and it makes sense to spread
> out the work required for the busy period (ie 12-3) for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1. the longer your kitchen is open for business, the more money it can
> pull in. (Seems kind of obvious)

Obvious,yes, with the operative word being 'can'. If all you are doing
is losing money by being open for long hours, then get back to the
core profitable times.

> 3. a team who frantically spend the morning on one goal ie getting
> ready for a short, intensive service, do not have time to take care
> properly of things like temperature control, stock management, proper
> cleaning of equipment, menu development, menu costing and the quality
> of the product. etc.etc.

They used to manage fine.

> At the end, the two cooks at HRC were both working from 9-3.30, which
> is just daft.  The reason evening catering wasn't successful may be
> entirely down to the fact that KPs were left to run what should have
> been a profitable, popular and reliable part of the business.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has an explanation as to why
catering wages increased by £10k from June 2007 to June 2008, whilst
takings dropped by the same amount.

John

[JohnEwing]

On Apr 3, 5:31 am, Morag Hunter <biodynam...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> It was always open on Saturday nights.

And Sunday nights. (In fact we used to be open every day of the year,
or rather every evening.) Sunday nights tended to be quiet, but the
takings were still enough to justify opening.

John

[Morag Hunter]

I think this was in part because of a change in the way the wages were
accounted for. At one point catering losses were hidden by putting
some wages against bar wages instead. For example, at one point, no
costing was put in for the fact that staff behind the bar sold food as
well as drink. I think, though I am not 100% sure, that it was
2007-2008 when a more realistic way of accounting for this was
introduced.