Heron Genoa Jib Plebiscite is required

[Rhys Llewellyn]

So, you have been in the class for 1.5 seasons.
Have talked to those that were involved in the development of the Genoa?
Do you know why it was looked at as an option?
Have you studied the results at a National level?
Have you spoken to those that are still sailing Herons because the Genoa is an option?

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement or that maybe 2 divisions are needed for some clubs or regattas.
However, there did seem to be a demanding tone to you post.

Rhys Llewellyn
rall...@hotmail.com

[green heron]

Hi Brian

Its great that you are excited about the new genoa.

I sail with a genoa and even a bigger mainsail which is sanctioned by our club herons, but we weigh 114kgms.

You may feel that that more sail and waterline length is faster, but a bigger component is crew weight.

If you have a competitive crew weight of say 100kg and you have the same sailing ability as say someone sailing at say 140kgs and have the same rig, you are going to win.

If you were sailing with the larger genoa and your crew weight was not 135kgs or more you had an unfair advantage over the other sailors who did comply with the rules.

If you weigh 125kgs you could have placed 10kg of ballast into the boat to make it fairer.

We all come in all sorts of sizes and the lucky ones as far as sailing a heron are concerned are small and light.

If you want to exclude all others from being competitive in the heron class then let every boat have a genoa. The only problem you will find is that you will have less boats to sail against because the heavier crews will abandon the class to seek a fairer alternative. In fact you may not have a class as the critical mass of participants may be lost and new comers may not be interested.

I have been very involved in the weight and sail area issue at our club. We currently allow single hander's and 2 crewed boats to compete directly against each other for the championship and handicap events.

It is very clear that weight of the crew is the biggest influence on boat speed.

The single handers and the light weight 2 crews perform about the same when the crew weight is about the same.

heavier crews definitely improve with the genoa but they don't improve enough to be faster than the llighter crews. They only improve enough to have a chance against the lighter crews.

From my very personal experience when I sail single handed with the standard rig and I am carrying 108kg and I am the same speed as the best of our club boats which are also single handed.

When my son and I sail together at 114kg crew weight we cannot keep up and find ourselves at the back of the fleet even with the genoa.

When we sail with the genoa and bigger main which we have adopted for crews over 160kgs, then we can keep up with the top boats but we have to work extremely hard to do so and we just cannot beat them over the line. We have not won a race on scratch this season but we have been close.

So I am saying that don't suggest that we take away the fairness of the current rules. We want everyone to be pushing to cross that finishing line first. Not just to be the fooder at the back of the fleet.

If you want to use the genoa carry 135kg in crew weight and ballast.

Regards

Peter Connor


On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:09:24 AM UTC+11, hoppin...@gmail.com wrote:

Started sailing Herons late in 2013 in a well looked after 20yo glass Botterill hull heron with my son , I - re-rigged with a brand new mast etc  

and despite my skills and efforts at trimming etc  the boat simply was slower in a straight line than ALL the Genoa herons.

SO,

I purchased a new Redback Genoa which we used for the first time on the weekend for a TRUE ceteris paribus comparison.

and ...WOW - Instead of coming mid fleet as usual (behind the other Genoa users) we were placed in the top

positions at our club in both races and had very close racing with the other GENOA users.

I encountered a bit of grizzling from the other Jib users that we were not heavy enough.

Not so, I say, we now have the same ONE DESIGN as the top placegetters good enough for them,  good

enough for us thankyou.

I now put it to the group here, that more sail area a huge 1.2m2 more, in fact,

equals more boat speed and that all boats using small Jibs will generally always lose to genoa users.

as every experienced sailor knows it is Waterline length and Sail Area which are the prime determinants of boat speed

No other ONE DESIGN class I have ever been involved in has this crew weight/sail Penalty to RETARD one competitor

in favour of another. It is a joke.

We clearly need a resolution to be put to all national heron association members to vote in a plebiscite:

"That either the Jib OR Genoa may be used at any time at the sole discretion of the crew"

Brian Hopping

Adelaide SA (Somerton YC)

former:

National Rainbow Champion 86/7 (final score 0 after discard)

sailed:

Holdfast Trainer  

Mosquito Cat

J24 Keelboat

Adelaide - Port Lincoln Line Honours spinnaker trimmer

[green heron]

Hi Brian

Correction to my previous post.

Our combined crew weight is 214kgs not 114kgs.

[David Johnson]

Hi Brian

 

Congrats on getting in Herons -  a boat like no other.  I am sure you will have a great time playing around with these curious little boats as they are definitely not a one design boat.  There are many different combinations used in herons jib vs genoa and gaff vs Bermudan (not to mention any hull differences).  It is great to experiment with different combinations to see what effects they have on performance.  Although, despite such combinations we consistently see close racing with all the different combinations.  The last NSW States was a classic example.  I have experienced this at many regattas including the last nationals.  

 

To respond to your proposal about the jib or genoa being able to be used at any time at the sole discretion of the crew - that would not benefit the class or make for fair sailing.  If a 100kg crew could use the genoa clearly they would have a massive advantage against the same boat weighing 135kg plus.  Conversely, a 135kg plus crew using a jib would have a massive disadvantage against the same boat weighing 100kg.  The genoa was brought in to keep heavier crews competitive with lighter crews - and it has worked.  In fact I think it is amazing how well it achieves this purpose. The genoa is great for the class because it creates a more of a level playing field for heavier crew weights. 

 

While we are on the topic, I have also sailed with the small jib with crew weights from 95kg to 127kg and the genoa with crew weight of 135kg.  I was actually tossing up whether to sail with a small jib or genoa at the nationals because my crew weight with my two eldest kids was 127kg.  I chose the small jib and we experienced close racing against both small jibs and genoa boats.  I was very glad I had a small jib in anything above 17knots as there was simply more than enough power - not to mention my 10 year old probably would have struggled to pull on the genoa in windy conditions.  Obviously the lighter the wind became and whenever we needed more power - any advantage was reduced against genoas (and against lighter weight crews using the jib).  But that's sailing and you can't have it all your own way all the time.

 

I am not sure where the line is crossed when a small jib or genoa is the faster boat but overall I believe it is spot on and helps to keep boats competitive that would otherwise not be competitive solely due to weight differences.

 

I am not sure what crew weight you have been sailing with when you changed from the jib to genoa or what conditions you were sailing in.  If your crew weight was less than 135kg than the comparison probably was not that accurate as you need a minimum of 135kg crew weight to use the genoa in a race.  The conditions will also have an impact.  But I would be keen to hear what you discover if you keep experimenting.

 

Best of luck with your heron.

 

Regards,

 

David Johnson

0404 636 800

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[stingray]

Peter,

I agree 100% with what you say. My experience is identical .... weight is everything. 

What's this about you saying "we weigh 114kgs" .... you mean we weigh 214kg right?

Just aside, when we sail one up, we get penalised 3mins, even if your weight is more than the weight of boats with two up. it's a bit unfair ... particuraily if u don't have a self lainching pole. basically, no weight advantage, half the hands and you get a 3mins pen ... but that's a club issue. in effect, It encourages you to train a kid, whether yours or another. 

Mike. 

[bunabaroo]

Hi Brian, I'm very keen to know what crew weight you had in the boat when sailing with the genoa?

For the record the NSW States was won by a gaff riged boat sailing with a genoa, In the recent Tassie small jibs were 1st and 2nd.The genoa finished 3rd in the last 2 nationals and no-one has yet won a national title using it.. I don't see any great difference between the sails in performance when crew weight is optimised (which you would know it has to be to win anything).

[bunabaroo]

The area difference is approximately 0.5sqm.

[Jason groves]

Brian,

If the number of your boat is 9910 it would be more like 30+ years old not 20 (Note: boat 9957 was build in 1984). The hull shape, weight and rig setup plays a big factor in heron sailing like it does in all sailing dinghy's. i'm guessing the shape of your 32yo botterill hull is shaped like a banana compared to the newer flatter bottom boats?. With my 25+ years experience in the class i can tell you they are not the quickest boats.

With the Genoa, in the last 3 nationals I've attended only 1 or 2  boats using a Genoa (in each nationals) have made the top 6.

 

At the national in TAS 3 months ago Dave J won using a small jib and crew weight of 125kg??.  he also came 2nd at the NSW states at the same weight.??

I came 3rd at the NSW states with a crew weight of 124kg using the small jib.?? 

What is your crew weight?

Its easy to just blame the Genoa. but i would look at some other factors too.

Jason Groves

Fatty & Skinny

10274

[davisonhome]

Hi Brian,

The larger head sail was introduced over a period of several years, and while it does help with heavier skipper/crew weights it will not make an early glass boat into a current shape or stiffness.

While the Mk 1 is a good boat it tends to have hull flex that reduces performance in waves compared to the later stiffer designs (and many well built frame boats) and tends not to get up or stay on the plane as well too.  They are moulded from a winning boat back in the day, and are rarely symmetrical.  Still go alright though.

It can be easy to fixate on the gaff or the bigger sail.  I for one was not in favour of the single piece mast, certainly not in the beginning because there are decades of development in the gaff rig and it is very well tuned and understood.  A bermudan rig has simplicity and a small potential upwind advantage, but the gaff allows rotation off the wind that can also give an advantage over the single stick - frankly either rig can win on the day, there is no clear advantage except to the individual who perhaps understands one better than the other.  So you go with what you are comfortable with.  The bermudan rig is still being developed, and may eventually prove superior, but not yet.

The bigger area of the jib was got by more or less extending the jib up the strop to the mast and moving the leech back parallel all the way down to the deck, so the clew moves aft a similar amount.  As far as sheeting position is concerned it is possible to use the aft end of most standard tracks mounted along the carlin - in practice up to ten knots the bigger sail really helps, but at and over fifteen you find you generally lose height pointing when punching in order to keep the luff full and the smaller rigged boats get up and go off the wind so it helps you to keep up a bit rather than fly away...

I first tried a big jib at a nationals where my crew and I weighed in at a combined 157kg - there was a clear boost punching upwind in 25 knots, and we did enjoy it.  We passed a fair few boats and then turtled it by stuffing it into a wave in semi-submarine mode on the run, so of course eventually I bought one.  With my daughter as crew (combined 140kg) it allows us to argue with national champion boats crewed around 100kg combined - but we have to work quite hard for any win.  If I have a small crew I compete just fine with the small jib, and probably wouldn't bother fitting the big one unless closer to the 135kg cut off.

If you wish to truly compare your boat with "all others the same" then weigh your boat and yourselves, then your competition first - then put corrector weights in yours to equalise yourself as per the association rules and then go racing, like against like. 

The Heron is a very easy boat to sail, but it is a very hard boat to sail fast - that last ten percent will take you 90 percent of your effort, and you should not discount how well the faster boats are being sailed.  The Heron is NOT a one design class such as a Laser - it is a class that through much effort and diligence allows the latest boats to compete with decades old boats that have a reasonable chance of winning when on weight, with a good rig and handled skilfully.  There is actually a fair bit of latitude in measuring and quite a variety of boats and rigs which you will see if you compete in the upcoming States at Wallaroo and the Nationals next year in Port Lincoln.  Herons are an inclusive class that allows sailors from the very young right through to some in their 80's to sail together and against each other and I can tell you right now - demanding an instant change to the rules won't work - it takes patience, time and a well reasoned argument - and a reasonable consensus over possibly a few seasons before a major change occurs.  You are most welcome to join the association and become active in driving the class, but please be aware many Heronners are very, no actually extremely passionate and protective of these wonderful little boats - and quite rightfully resistant to any forceful demands regarding the class structure and aims.  Particularly when those demands are made without understanding the history that has led to some of the current rules and the reasoning that surrounds them.

Skinny Dip 10236

[Flaw Show]

Richie (and others),

Just to clarify - the Mk 1 GRP mould was taken from a specially made "middle of tolerance" plug, not a boat.  The Mk 2 mould was made from 9969 Hornet.  This boat had some asymmetry, which is faithfully replicated in all Mk 2 hulls up until a new plug and mould were made by Andrew Baker.  This mould retained the essentials of the Mk2 shape but corrected the asymmetry.  This is the mould shape now being used by Dinghy Sports.

Richard  

[davisonhome]

Thanks for that clarification Richard.

Any of us that have used the Mk1 GRP boats know they are quite reasonable at a club level and in flat water, but are limited in some aspects against the later (and latest) hulls.

Skinny Dip 10236

[Mr Ian L Cole]

Just follow the rules

but the Genoa is providing unfair advantage over crews 100-124kg

[Better Than Ballet - 9940]

The UK Heron Assoc allow use of a "Jib", a "Big Jib", and a "Genoa".

Maybe we need this "big jib"?

[hoppin...@gmail.com]

Hi Richard,

mmm, looks like we need a new boat ....cheers Brian

[hoppin...@gmail.com]

Yes we should allow same rules ...

cheers

Brian

[hoppin...@gmail.com]

Good Idea looks like to compete at the pointy end a new boat is needed, I was unaware of this significant hull variation 

cheers

Brian

[hoppin...@gmail.com]

Thanks for that info

cheers

Brian

[hoppin...@gmail.com]

Yes, just testing these ideas in club racing 

cheers

Brian

[davisonhome]

Worth having a wander and looking at the hull shapes etc. at a States or Nationals, there is a lot of variation over the years and between different materials. 

You can spend over $12,000  on one, you can also win a Nationals for under $4,000 so it's not the chequebook that wins - although it can help a sailor already pushing into the lead group for sure.  I'm more worried about a stiff fair hull, good foils, a good mast/boom/gaff setup and well cut sails - it's how it is handled that counts after that.

Understanding how the boat, and this class works are more important to getting the most out of both.  As a family class, with your kids up front this class is one of the best, the membership is reasonably laid back and the racing is as intense as it gets with literally dozens of State, National and even world champions from every class imaginable in the fleet.  The top boats are sailed by very skilled and highly competent sailors, and being at the pointy end puts you in extremely good company.

I use a big jib with my daughter or wife as crew, I use the small one if I have a small child and can win races either way - the big jib can help, but it is not the deal breaker sometimes suggested.  If it allows more boats on the water then I am all for it, but letting the lightweights use it just sets the situation back to the same as before so what's the point in that?  May not be ideal but it can be changed in time if the majority feel it should be.

Richard.

[Joy & Andy Gough]

Well said Richard.

Andy and I as you are aware rarely sail these days due to health and physical conditions. However, it was great to get back into Waffles with Andy at the helm and me ducking the vang the other weekend on the lakeJ

James rigged us with the one piece mast, old mainsail and a well-used big jib.

Once we got the feel of the different rig we were able to stay up with the fleet and felt we were in the race.

My main concern as forehand was poling out the big jib like we do with the small one. Not easy even after much practice and I couldn’t see a small crew having the strength. It was too long and as for jibing the jib, not good!

Hope this find you well,

Cheers,

Joy

[Calum Polwart (UK Webmaster)]

So the big jib is a 73 or 79% of the UK Genoa. Its pretty much standard as a Genoa in the UK with a few people using a 100%. (The current FRP mould in the UK doesn't have a 100% sheeting position) There are plenty who still use the standard jib.

Those with sense and enough budget have 2sails and will use the smaller one for combinations of crew weight and wind where the Genoa is expected to over power.

The 100% is a pain to tack with especially when single handing which is quite common in the UK.

[Calum Polwart (UK Webmaster)]

Do your auzzie rules allow a fly away jib stick? So you don't have to pole it out manually you just pull on some permanently attached string...?

[Calum Polwart (UK Webmaster)]

[bunabaroo]

Hi Calum, long time no hear... Yes we do have the magic pole string, right next to the owners rope. The reason Joy's boat is in the dark ages is her son is fitting out a new rig for her...  :)

Cheers,

[Don Jamieson]

Dear all,  I have glanced at some of the communications relating to the Genoa, and it seems to me that many current members are unaware of the history of the development of the sail.  Many years ago there was much discussion amongst Heroners about the loss of participants because (with the kids grown up) boats were forced to sail with heavier crews, they were slow, and their crews were losing enjoyment of our class racing.

A major professional market research program, supervised by Dr Paula Saunders a market researcher and statistician from Sydney University,  was carried out amongst Heroners. It looked at several issues including rudders and spars but the biggest issue explored was leveling the playing field for heavier crews.  A bigger jib was proposed, as the cheapest and most effective way of achieving the required result and a strong majority of responses supported it.

Prior to the proposal being put to an AGM as a “permitted modification” several prototypes were built by a couple of different sail makers. They were trialled over a year by various skippers and found to level the “weight” issue to a significant degree.  They were also found to improve the balance of the boat, reducing the strong weather helm.  These trials also allowed the design to be optimised so that in the motion eventually put to the AGM, exact measurements with tolerances were provided (also with the crew weight threshold for use of the sail in championship competition).

Of course we looked carefully at what the UK Association was doing at the time, although their measurement rules were very different from the Australian ones, with three headsail sizes allowed, spinnakers, and very funny arrangements for internal fixed flotation.  It was felt that the Australian Assoc was far more professional and disciplined in measurement matters and we felt no imperative to copy the larger UK jib.

The Australian Heron Genoa is a very similar size to the UK “big jib”, with improvements:  The foot was shortened so that the clew position did not interfere with the crew sitting position up against the stays, and the luff and leech were lengthened to obtain a better sail shape and aspect ratio.  To achieve a similar area to the UK sail, a small roach with two short battens was incorporated in the Australian design.  It looks and behaves like a modern sail.

I hope this short background is helpful to those who have more recently come to the class.  Don Jamieson,  Secretary of the Measurement Committee. 

 

From: heron-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:heron-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of hoppin...@gmail.com

Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2015 12:08 PM
To: heron-...@googlegroups.com

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[davisonhome]

As one of those who tried two versions of the proposed bigger head sail I can confirm there was an immediate change to how the boat handled and worked with a heavier crew and skipper.

The UK rules are not transferable to Oz without a lot of cost and alteration of existing boats/rigs etc. Brian, and a lot of their sailing conditions are utterly different to ours - as Aussie Heron sailors have discovered and reported on when visiting the UK.

Richard D

Skinny Dip 10236

[Stephen Watts]

Thanks Don for your lengthy recount of the history behind the issue.
Also, for those new to the class, that is Word from on high.
Steve 'Flat Chat' 10250

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Stephen Watts 0403 815 889