Big jibs and how to grow the Heron Class

[White Pointer]

I would be the first to agree with anyone who said that I don't know
what I am talking about with regard to sailing a Heron. But let me
say the following:

I do know it is damaging to the Class to have the conversation with
captions 'Is this the death of our Class?'. Essentially this is a
self fulfilling prophesy - we need to stamp that type of comment and
discussion out and need to make sure the conversation is presented in
a positive and beneficial way for the class. E.g. Big jibs and how
to grow the Heron Class.

The only way that we can truly evaluate the big jib is if as many
people as possible race at the nationals. If you leave it to hacks
like myself (who sadly can't race in these nationals this year due to
conflicting events) then you have no way of truly evaluating the
change that was made - most of the people who would race with the big
jib would beat me regardless.

For me, I started racing a Heron for my children. I have enjoyed the
friendship and rivalry on the water and would love to be able to
continue to enjoy this for as long as possible. I would like to keep
racing a Heron and know that it is much more fun when there are more
boats at the regattas. If it was all about wining then I would race a
different boat. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of the optimist
class - 'it's not about the boat!'.

If you really care for the Heron Class then please change the tone of
the argument. Please take the passion that you have and make it into
a constructive and positive influence on the Class.


Enough from the Hack.

Stephen Swavley

[Keiran Mulcahy]

Dear All,
Can I agree with Steven.
Let's keep all the comments positive and progressive.
Even to the extent of two fleet winners( if necessary) until you have worked
out the rules / weight restriction to be applied against the larger jib.
Let's keep everyone happy while you attempt to identify the difference a big
jib makes.
For me I though the big jib was just to keep a boat competitive as a son or
daughter got older and heavier.
I thought it was not intended to give an advantage.
In this respect I get the feeling the weight restriction needs to be
increased where the big jib is used.
Keiran Mulcahy

Enough from the Hack.

Stephen Swavley

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[George Rance]

Well, let's take the weight of the boat into account. Have a look at Goughy's response to my earlier comment as a good example.

The positive outcome I would like to see is one in which heavier boats, perhaps crewed by heavier crews, are encouraged to participate in regular fleet racing. The Big Jib will be an important factor to do this. Let's get Herons out of the garages.

If it is felt too onerous to weigh boat and crew, allow people to choose. It will not hurt the class. It will expand it!

George

[White Pointer]

The problem with including the boat weight is that enterprising
individuals will 'manage' the weight distribution in their boat. I
would think this would create an advantage. Maybe I am demonstrating
ignorance here - but the physics of it make me believe that if I had
to carry even 1Kg extra fixed weight, I would rather it right at the
bow of my boat to help punch though waves.

That being said, a discussion on how to get the older boats our of the
shed and on the water is worth having. Although, I suspect that the
weight issue is not what keeps most of them out of the water.

Stephen

[bunabaroo]

Stephen, any extra weight should be as central as possible to reduce
for & aft pitching motion, that's why the skipper and crew sit as
close as possible to each other. It's best to keep weight out of the
ends for this reason. An enterprising builder might make the bottom
extra stiff, or make the centreboard from railway sleepers to keep
extra weight low and central. These ideas are legal and have been used
for many years in the class.

The class voted for the system we have now, and I for one think we
should stick to it and see how it works out. I would like to see as
many boats as possible at the Vic Nats, but I'm not sure yet if I can
go, though I would like to.

I think Paul is stuck between the two fast crew weights at the moment,
110-115kg for the small jib, and 135-140 for the big jib. So he has
two options, get down to 115 and stick with the small sail, which Paul
is already well on the way to, or fit correctors as the rule allows
and use the bigger sail.

Quite frankly I'd rather be light with the small sail, but gravity has
more effect on me than I would like so I use the big one. If there
wasn't an option I wouldn't be sailing a Heron at all.


Cheers, Goughy

[George Rance]

I can't really see people managing the weight. If you have an older heavier boat there is not a lot you can do about. Currently, underweight boats can add "correctors" so if there is some advantage to gained by strategic placing of weights, it is already being exploited.

If I was in ever the position of considering such a move I reckon I would locate the weights as low down in the middle if the boat as possible. That is next to the centerboard in the lowest point.

The point with the older boats & the big Jib is to not only get them out of the garage, but to encourage older heavier boats to participate in regattas & interclub events.

George

[bunabaroo]

On the topic of raising the big jib minimum crew weight, you might be
interested to know that I was sailing with the equivalent of 145kg
(142kg crew plus 3kg over boat) on the weekend, which is 10kg more
than the current 135kg minimum. So a 10kg rise is not going to ruin
the idea.

It will however take some time to change the rules...... again......

Cheers, Goughy

[George Rance]

Don’t even consider raise the crew weight for goodness sake.  If it is, it will disenfranchise older heavier boats with an impact on regatta and inter club fleets.  Let people make the choice themselves.  Please.

Goerge

[Fraser Galloway]

FOR SALE

"Two Fools Fumbling"
10228
The last of the frame boats?
Is being sailed with small jib by my son Fergus at the nationals.
After this it is for sale.
Comes with dolly.
Goldspar mast and 2 gaff rigs all of which have won heats at nationals.
Also stiffer association section with goldspar tip. Dyeform low stretch
sidestays. Swiss International Finn mast lock to reduce mast compression
and hold head of main at fixed position.
Botteril centerboard and rudder blade. End grain atl duraflex balsa rubber
box. Endgrain balsa atl duraflex frames and floorboards.
Centerboard, Cunningham, vang, outhaul and hiking straps all adjustable at
full hiking position.
2 Goldspar booms (one not yet fitted out.)
Spare Botteril rudder box.
A fair collection of Vector and Brewer sails.
All lines and sheets are spectra/dynema but for mastrum mainsheet. All not
water holding materials.
Email offers to
Fraser Galloway
vet...@internode.on.net

[Paul armstrong]

I think my initial big jib blog may have been taken incorrectly. I think the
big jib is a positive step forward for the heron, but like most things may
not have been fully trialed and tested before being brought in. The big jib
looks, feels and sails better on the boat, thus improving our beautiful
bird. The only issue I have is that the weight limit we have set is
incorrect, it gives boats in the lower end of the weight range too great an
advantage, I think this limit needs to be raised by 10 to 15kg.
Furthermore I also agree that not enough emphasis is placed on the handicap
placings at regattas, this system also needs to be looked at so that anyone
can win this title, and it be equivalent to the scratch title.

Regards,
Paul Armstrong
NSW Operations Manager
Force 5 (NSW & QLD) Pty Ltd
PO Box 6942 Silverwater NSW 2128
Mobile 0418 116 036
Office 02 9627 7700
Fax 02 9627 7872
paul_ar...@force5.com.au
www.force5.com.au

-----Original Message-----
From: heron-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:heron-...@googlegroups.com]

[Peter...@csiro.au]

To the administrator: please remove me from this email group. Thanks

Peter Royle 
Centre Manager- Adelaide
CSIRO Food and Nutritional Sciences
T:08 8303 8947 M:0410 345 606

[White Pointer]

I may be showing my ignorance again here - but is there or has there
ever been a training program developed around sailing Herons?
Something that might include an official certificate from the Heron
Association and perhaps YA?

This might be a way increasing involvement in the class. People
(especially kids) like certificates. It is also a nice safe boat to
learn to sail in - for both the parent and the child.

When I have mentioned sailing a boat to a number of friends, many of
them have expressed reluctance because they don't know how to sail.

Is this a silly idea?

[Rhys Llewellyn]

I tend to agree that the weight limit for the big jib could need some
adjustment.
I competed at the Qld nationals at 140-145kg crew weight and managed
to finish 4th outright.
Yes, when it was a light breeze, we struggled against the light crews.
However, when it blew, we took care of the light weights. All in all,
pretty fair.

However, the next year in SA, we were around 160kg and could not be
competitive in any breeze. When it was light or moderate, we would be
passed by 5-6 boats on every down wind leg. When it blew, it was
better, but we still lacked down wind speed and the boat loaded up a
lot.
I used a big jib during the invitation race in SA. When calculations
were made between my speed in this race and the rest of the series
when compared to people who only used the small jib, it was found that
I would have finished around 6th outright if I had used the big jib
for the whole series.

This is just my personal experience, but I think the magic weight will
probably be somewhere around 145kg.

On a side note, I don't think correctors should be allowed to increase
crew weight.

Rhys (got beaten by his daughter in the states)

[Flat Chat]

Following the NSW States, the first major regatta to use the big jib,
I think that the concept has passed the test with credit. With little
exception, I thought that boats were more evenly matched in speed,
with the lighter wind races being kinder to the heavier crews. Seeing
Goughy up the front in 10 kts was worth the price of admission on its
own. Herons have been dominated by light crews for decades - now there
is the chance for the class base to be expanded by previously
uncompetitive crews able to have a go at winning scratch prizes too.
The whole concept has been to make as many boats/crews as competitive
as possible and this first step has been positive. Having the ability
to add correctors allows the range to be broader rather than narrow.
Without, it means a crew combination of 134kg is denied the big jib
'advantage' whereas a 135kg can. Whether the weight limit needs to be
increased remains to be seen.

As to the event itself, the results were fairly predictable. A middle
fleeter with a big jib didn't win it. Greg did, with a big jib
admittedly, but I don't think he was necessarily much faster than when
I have sailed against him before. He was just smarter in critical
stages and sailed well in some testing conditions. Greg is notorious
for shocking starts and races where he's had to sail past a dozen
boats to get a decent result. All credit to him and this regatta was
no exception. There were numerous times on Sunday in the Bay in
particular that other boats suddenly put 50 metres on me or I did to
them, simply by being in a better patch of breeze. It would not be
possible to directly equate particular legs or races to big jib or
not, only to say, overall, heavier weight crews were further up than
they otherwise would have been. The result in this event was
determined by the skill of the skippers and not crew weight or big
jibs (at least in the top ten boats). If I've had the wood on Warren
(for example) for the last few years because I'm 15kg lighter and then
he starts to beat me with a big jib - I say good luck. I won't spit
the dummy, I just need to get better.

One thing I will have a gripe about though is the issue of race
officials sending us away when it gets a bit breezy. On Saturday
afternoon there were enough boats to sail the third heat in about
22kts when our PRO said go home. It is entirely the perrogative of
sailors to have 5 year-olds as crew so they can go fast in light to
moderate wind, but their presence on the water should not be a
determining factor in the mind of PROs when assessing whether to
continue. (The Laser races went ahead). The skipper should be the one
to make that call, and go home if not comfortable / crew cold /
hungry / boat fragile / afraid of capsize etc. I've sailed lots of
races in 20-25kts in the last couple of years in Adelaide, Port
Stephens, Botany Bay, Lake Macquarie, and have not broken anything and
capsized once. These are 'my' conditions - I enjoy these races and
generally get my best places in them. To have them routinely put off
only to suffer rubbish wind the following day in a resail is off-
putting, and again, advantageous to the lightest-weight crews. One
could convincingly argue that this set of circumstances also
determined the outcome of our last Nationals.

Steve

[bunabaroo]

Steve S, it's not a silly idea, its a bloody good one! As there is no
Heron Training fleet in NSW we would have to use members boats, an
integral part of the training course could be care of a racing dinghy.
More discussion here is needed, but it can be done.

Rhys I hope you are prepared to break that promise you made, I think
you just need a decent boat and a fat mans jib and you'll be back
where you should be, 2nd place behind me :)

Steve W, you talk a lot of sense, and I whole heartedly agree that we
should sail in the windier conditions, I had finished my repairs and
was five minutes from being back on the water when the racing was
cancelled - very disapointed at the time. Perhaps we need to instruct
the PRO on what our upper wind strength is for the regatta? 30kts??

Goughy

[2 Goats]

Wow, this is awesome! We are actually all using this discussion group
and it's actually very interesting.
I have just got home from work and spent 20 minutes reading it all.
Who needs a newsletter.

I felt that I should put my persective on the NSW State Titles result
as I have made some comments prior to the event.
Firstly, thank you for a hyper competitive and hard fought event to
Paul and James. It was fantastic fun. For those who have not seen the
results:
Two Goats in a Boat (4),1,1,2,1 [5], Appauled 1,(9),3,1,2 [16],
Waffles 2,(23), 2,3,3 [10], Foghorn Leghorn 3,6,5,4,(9) [18], Flat
Chat 5,2,(23),7,6 [20]

Was I faster because of the big jib? Answer = Yes
Was I given an unfair advantage because of the big jib? To answer this
we need to answer the question of what do we want to achieve with the
big jib and should I be eligible.
Is the intention to assist crews (particularly family crews) to remain
competitive as they get older and heavier? If so then it was of
assistance to Emma and I. We are over 10kg heavier than we were at
this time last year.
We sailed at a crew weight of 136kg with a boat that is 7kg over
weight. We have won the previous two State Titles, should that
preclude us from using the big jib and regaining the speed that we may
have lost?

Obviously the main question that is being discussed is really trying
to get the balance right with regards to what weight range is it most
fair to allow the use of the big jib and not disadvantage those crews
to light to take advantage of it.
So seeing as we were competing at just above the current correct entry
weight for the Big Jib, were we faster than the crews in small jib
boats?
2 Goats in a Boat has always been a very fast boat. Yes, I was faster
than many of the bosts in the fleet.
The best comparisons of boat speed were against the top 5 or 6 boats.
Upwind, in a straight line I was not able to demonstrate superior
speed compared to the top small jib herons. However, on a couple of
occasions I was able to deliberately point higher and maintain
sufficient speed to gain an advantage over a short distance. It should
be noted that I also did this to the other Big Jib boats. James Gough
and Warren Monaghan can attest to that. So in my opinion it is
difficult for me to say that I was unfairly faster than the small jib
herons upwind, but I was certainly not slower. Were we faster than the
small jib herons down wind? Yes! This was particularly noticeable when
I could pick up a few small runs that they missed. I believe that it
was worth between 1 and 4 boat lengths per leg depending on the
conditions. This was particularly noticeable to me because it is
something that I have missed greatly over the past 2 years. This is
what we were like in 2 Goats when we were 115kg!! I should note that
we pulled away from the other big jib boats also.

So we are definately faster in our boat with a big jib than without
one. I believe that the boat is performing at a level similar to when
we weighed 115kg, although now we are big enough to muscle it around a
lot more and can hike a lot harder.
I was very worried about the potential for this to be much too large a
performance advantage and severely disadvantage small jib crews. I am
no longer so worried. I don't believe that the results of our state
championships were significantly skewed.
For Example:

10253 Warren Monaghan finished in 11th place. This is perhaps 2 or 3
places better than his previous results.
10258 Ian Milton finished in 7th place. Last year (his first year) he
finished 11th. He has improved greatly this season and has been giving
me hell at a club level.
5731 Alex Cawsey finished 8th. Alex has not sailed a States for a year
or two, but is a quality sailor and I actually expected a better
result.
10285 James Gough finished 3rd. James sailed an excellent series. He
did not take any of his customary fliers - the big jib gave him the
confidence not to. This result is definately a demonstration of James'
ability. The big jib has brought him back to a class that he abandoned
because he was frustrated at being uncompetitive because of his size.
Some may remember that James has finished 3rd in a National
Championships in his younger, smaller days. This is what the Big Jib
was for!!!!!

Perhaps we may need to increase the weight limit slightly. I don't
believe that we are a million miles away.

Greg
10205

P.S. The strange sail numbers above are because James borrowed one of
my mainsails.

[2 Goats]

James,

In defence of the PRO. He did show us the readings at the airport
(just across the bay) the next morning.
They were registering regular gusts of 33knots at 3pm. You and I would
have had a ball and a very interesting race. Perhaps others might have
had more trouble. OR we both might have busted something important and
wrecked our series??

2 Goats

On Nov 30, 11:44 pm, bunabaroo <saltencrustedsunn...@bunabaroo.com>
wrote:

[White Pointer]

When I looked at the readings for 3:00pm and on - both kurnell and the
airport were reading 25knts with gusts in the low 30knts.

Whilst I would have raced - I was cramping in both legs and arms when
we finally headed back to shore.

Stephen

[Mark Baker]

Hi all,
 
Living far away from you all and following all the different inputs to this big jib development, I have to say I can see two camps squaring up. The "making all the boats more evenly competetive" camp, and the "keeping it interesting for the families" camp. And yes some would say that they are the same goal.
 
I Have sailed in many different classes and some at a high competitive level, and yes I like to win, but for me the Heron was, and still is, the perfect boat to get my boys on the water in a more or less level playing field, with their Dad.
 
I am all for the "big jib", and other developments, if it means keeping people in boats, because personally I would miss some of the friends I have made because they could not enjoy sailing herons any longer, and every minute I get to spend with my boys in a boat adds infinite ejoyment to my life and I hope theirs too. This is what Herons ar all about whether you are first or last!
 
I can't wait to get back to Oz and into my Heron. I need a new jib when I get there so can we please sort it out before then so I know what to order ;-)
 
Rhys, for me you are the winner of the States mate, I dream of the day when I get beaten by one of my Kids...
 
Cheers
Mark Baker
 
Temeraire in hibernation.....
 
 
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 02:24:28 -0800

> Subject: Re: {Heron Sailors: } Big jibs and how to grow the Heron Class

> From: rall...@hotmail.com
> To: heron-...@googlegroups.com

[Ian Cole]

I used to be wiz bang at communicating but excuse me for saying
I have just opened up my email this evening to 45 messages majority for big
jib!!!

I think this discussion would be better on a discussion PAGE!

Ian C

-----Original Message-----
From: heron-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:heron-...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of 2 Goats
Sent: Tuesday, 30 November 2010 11:58 PM
To: Heron Sailors
Subject: Re: {Heron Sailors: } Big jibs and how to grow the Heron Class

James,

2 Goats

--

[andy gough]

Hi Ian, I have had a great time reading all the communication. Isn't this media fantastic! Joy xx         -------Original Message-------

[George Rance]

Hi Ian

I think this has been an excellent & enjoyable discussion. The email format worked well I thought. I looked forward to receiving the next set of responses.

It has certainly livened up peoples involvement.

George
Sent from my iPhone

[duane & jill clerke]

Hi All,

I believe we have to keep more people within the class and build the classes
reputation to introduce new entrants to the class but at what cost. Every
time we modify the old girls we will eventually stop the older boats
entering the class as it is not the same any more. I agree on the concepts
so far but too many changes and we will be a development class and not a
family class. I am currently sailing with my 9 yr old son (as crew) and we
have changed to the new mast. This has improved the performance of the boat
dramatically from last year with mast and gaff. The comments I get from this
are, we got out of the class because that doesn't look like a heron.
Remembering these individuals have grown up with the traditional heron
(without changes). I encourage innovation and development but keep in mind
at what cost to the class.

Duane

[White Pointer]

Hi Duane,

I voted for the one piece mast because if my gaff breaks I can't sail
my heron anymore. I would have to find someone to build it for me and
pay them. I think the price is getting up over $400 for a gaff now.
And even after that the results are somewhat unpredictable regarding
the stiffness of the gaff. The one piece mast for me is a cost issue
- it is cheap. If you have made a leap forward going to the one piece
mast then I suspect that either the gaff or the set up of your gaff
were wrong for you. I have raced against boats that have used the
gaff and switched to a one piece mast and found little difference in
the results.

Regarding the big jib. I voted for this because the average weight of
a parent and one of their children has gone up. Not so much because
we are racing with older children, but because as a society we are
getting heavier. For me, weight is not an issue. If I were to race
with my 13 year old we would only weigh in at around 115Kg. But we
are now the exception with regard to weight.

I think the discussion now goes around what sort of change has the big
jib made. Despite the effort put in to evaluate it before it was
brought in, it will still take a little while for us to really see
what impact it has. From what I have seen here and from other
discussions I have had it seems that the discussion now is more around
whether we should adjust the weight limits. I think this is a valid
discussion and will probably go on for a few years (and beyond no
doubt). But we need everyone possible to race so that we can really
see the results.

Two final comments:
The class has been declining in numbers. This started well before the
single mast and big jib. If we do nothing to respond to this then the
class will die. I hear it reported (and have heard it in a few cases
first hand) that a few people are saying "I love the Heron, but I
won't race one anymore with these changes" - to me, that just sounds
like an excuse to give up made by people who can't be bothered
anymore. If I love something then I pursue it, despite the costs and
regardless of the benefits (e.g. wining a regatta on scratch).

And finally, the big question is "what do we do to encourage people to
sail a Heron?". It seems to me that one of the things that happened
in the past with Herons was that families learnt to sail in them and
then launched off into other classes. Often they would hold an
affection for the Heron and would return to the Heron at various
times.

I think we need to play to our strength. The Heron is a great boat to
learn to sail in. Particularly for a parent/child combination.
Futher, to win in a Heron you have to sail it perfectly. Again, a
great way to learn to sail and race. The skills learnt racing a Heron
can be applied to any other boat.

I think that to reinvigourate the class we should make it THE class to
learn to sail in, especially for parent child combinations.

This is my idea for how to grow the class - what do others think of
this idea? What other ideas are out there?

[Shane]

Hi

Guys, which lofts have made your big jibs? Depending on which niece or
young son wants a sail - can go above or below the combined crew
weight 'threshold'. I'm intrigued to see how the little tub goes with
a bigger jib.

Cheers

Shane

[bunabaroo]

Mr Baker, Hello from afar!!! We miss you and the clan Baker, any
chance you'll be back for the Nationals in 2012?

Shane, the jib that Greg won the states with was a Hood sail, the one
that came third was a prototype that will be available for sale in the
next couple of weeks. I'll post here when it's ready. There wasn't
anything to pick between them in perfomance terms, and both sails
complemented the Brewer mains well. See if you can borrow one of the
demo jibs that were floating around, each state Assn has one, it
compensates the extra weight nicely and gives the boat more balanced
feel.

Cheers, Goughy