HL2 with Winlink (VARA or ARDOP)

[Charlie Rubenstein]

Has anyone successfully used their HL2 on Winlink? I see the RMS stations answering but it doesn't connect. I think perhaps the T/R switching is just too slow to keep up.

Charlie KB8CR

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Charlie,

I haven't used Winlink with my HL2 recently but I did notice that I had to use serial port PTT (instead of CAT control) when using PowerSDR for it to work. Not sure why since in theory CAT control should have been enough. What SDR program are you using?

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 2:00 PM Charlie Rubenstein <charl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Has anyone successfully used their HL2 on Winlink? I see the RMS stations answering but it doesn't connect. I think perhaps the T/R switching is just too slow to keep up.

Charlie KB8CR

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[Charlie Rubenstein]

I've been using Thetis 2.8.12. 

Charlie KB8CR

[Charlie Rubenstein]

And I am using serial PTT.

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Charlie,

I just tried doing a VARA HF session using Thetis and was able to connect with no issues. I took some screenshots of my settings; hopefully those help. The important settings will probably be TX drive and the number of retries (I find that setting that to the max of 15 gives me the best results regardless of rig since many gateways switch quickly between bands looking for a signal.)

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Charlie Rubenstein]

Thanks, Mooneer,

Ill check my settings and try again.

Charlie

[Charlie Rubenstein]

Still wouldn't work. I see the server answering, but it nevers make the connection. I tried it with my Flex 3000 with the same settings and it worked fine. 

I read the manual from Winlink, and it says to reduce the RX buffers to 512, but the lowest available in Thetis is 1024. Wonder if that is the problem.

Charlie KB8CR

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[Larry O'Cull]

I have found a reliable path to getting WinLink working with HL2 and Thetis.  

The Thetis and virtual cables have too much group delay to allow the rapid response required for Winlink (or anything Vara HF for that matter). What I have found is that the HL2-Plus add on board + a DigiRig-Mobile = success.   This setup pushes the audio directly through the HL2 CODEC, bypassing virtual cables.

The add-on board (HL2+) can be found here:   Hermes Lite 2 Plus
and the DigiRig-Mobile can be found here:  Digirig Mobile – digirig

I connect the audio cable (PTT+MIC+SPKR) to the Mic and Phones inputs of the HL2+.   Turn off the VAC1, Use USB (upper-side-band vs DIGU) in Thetis. You have to enable MIC in Thetis and set the RX1-AF and MIC gains appropriately.

This solution also fixes the situation where your buddy is running and HL2 -- and you cannot connect on VaraC.  As long as one of you is on this setup -- you can connect. The combined delays of two stock HL2/Thetis setups will lead to no joy in VaraC.

73!  Hope this helps.
WR9R
Larry

[Ed Stroh]

Very interesting solution, Larry. I will have to look more closely at this.

I found that my solution to fixing Vara was to reduce the buffer latency under the VAC1 tab. I think they're set to 120 by default. I have mine set to 10 for the RingBuffer and 5 for the PortAudio. Try adjusting this and see if you get better luck. I use VAC as you normally would and have no problems doing VarAC and WinLink after making this change.

Hope the above helps some folks struggling with this.

73,

Ed KS7ROH

[Larry O'Cull]

That's awesome!! I've been digging for that approach for months!!
Just tested and it worked great!  (Much simpler to wire-up HiHi.)

Thanks Ed,

73

Larry  de WR9R

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[Ed Stroh]

Very glad I could help, Larry! Have fun with Vara! :)

73,

Ed KS7ROH

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Larry,

Please be sure to update all groups you posted with this new solution from Ed. There is a lot of false information out there about VAC latency.

73,

Steve

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 11:28:02 AM UTC-7 ldo...@gmail.com wrote:

[radi...@mail.com]

Not sure about Winlink specifically but I've used VarAC via VAC with VARA HF to/from SDR Console and never seen any problems at all. Worked perfectly with no issues.

Maybe this discussion is about higher data rates than used in VarAC/VARA HF?

73

Max

[Ed Stroh]

Hey Max,

From what I could tell in my experience it was definitely a latency problem and not related to data rate. It prevented connections using even the lowest speeds. I even had semi-successful VarAC QSOs with other hams, one of which specifically noted that I had bad latency and was surprised that we were able to carry on at all. Somehow, Vara was accounting for the latency just enough to work. 

I'm curious, though, why your experience is different. What audio driver are you using? What are your latency settings? Buffer settings? Samplerate? Etc... Could you maybe share some screenshots of your config? Perhaps we can find out more about this issue by finding the differences.

73,

Ed KS7ROH

[radi...@mail.com]

Hi Ed

I quite literally downloaded the software, connected it to SDRC via VACs (the  Eugene Muzychenko VAC) and pushed "go" and checked nothing in terms of latency, buffers or anything else. Just worked first time. TBH I actually don't even know where to look for what you've asked for as never needed to. My hardware is (of course) HL2 feeding LDMOS linear (relay switched, not diodes).

Same with FT8, WSPR etc etc. Just plug and play every time with SDRC and no messing about. I've used VarAC and VAR HF at the higher (paid for) data rate and again no issues. I've never used Thetis so not sure why it would be different. By all means tell me exactly where to look and I can send settings. Are the settings you've asked for in VARA itself or VAC? Which VAC are you using?

73

Max

[Ed Stroh]

Max,

It must be a difference in how SDRC is set up by default. They must have low latency buffers set up out of the box, or something like that. Good to know SDRC doesn't have any issues with Vara. I think the issue we're talking about is exclusive to Thetis. 

73,

Ed KS7ROH

[gadget...@gmail.com]

Followed this thread and other tutorials and have it running but nothing decodes.

I'm running Win 11 Pro and using VAC to add the audio

I can see what I think is the data in the Vara HF waterfall but nothing in the monitor and nothing in the main VarAC window.  I think it might a tuning or audio level probelm but thats a guess ;)

This screenshot shows that the audio level usualy sits at about -20 but goes into the red with what seems to be a spike during each transmission (Horizontal line) - maybe that is normal for the mode?

If anyone with Win 11 can help me that would be great as its so close to working now!

[KC3QVF]

Maybe the FT8 signals are interfering.  Vara modem indicates the channel is free, not busy, yet the signals are there.  On the other hand, I have had success with Vara HF in very noisy conditions.

73 KC3QVF

[KC3QVF]

Gadget,

Yes, the VU meter bounces in the red during TX.  Can you move to a frequency where only Vara is on the spectrum?  Perhaps you can find another RMS Winlink station within range.  Another possibility is to move to the VaraC calling frequency.  Sometimes that is busy with Vara HF traffic.

73 KC3QVF

[Max]

There is no VaraHF data present in your screenshot so far as I can see. You are only seeing FT8 signals encroaching on the decoding window. Use the preset calling/listening frequencies for each band in VarAC to tune your radio via CAT and the data should appear in the middle of the tuning bars of the modem automatically. VaraHF data just looks like one wide stripe that exactly fills the space between the red lines. Don't forget radio needs to be in USB mode.

Can I suggest this extremely good primer from Mie Richards G4WNC. This link should take you to the right time, 29mins 40secs into the talk:

https://youtu.be/SC0UxNG2itE?t=1786

It pretty much tells you exactly how to set up VarAC from scratch including having another copy of the VARA HF modem running for monitoring purposes. It's worth just spending a few minutes to watch it right through even though undoubtedly some of it covers ground you already know. It takes you right the way through step by step to making an actual contact on VarAC. Can't recommend it highly enough for all those interested in this great mode. Also other data modes are covered in the same talk.

73

Max

On Friday, 1 December 2023 at 17:20:38 UTC gadget...@gmail.com wrote:

Followed this thread and other tutorials and have it running but nothing decodes.

I'm running Win 11 Pro and using VAC to add the audio

I can see what I think is the data in the Vara HF waterfall but nothing in the monitor and nothing in the main VarAC window.  I think it might a tuning or audio level probelm but thats a guess ;)

[Ron Lewkowicz]

Is there any way in this program for users to listen to see if a frequency is in use before keying up VARA?  QRM from VARA transmissions is becoming a huge problem on emergency SSB nets.  The Aurora net runs daily at 23:00 UTC on 7100 kHz and has for decades. 7100 kHz or lower is used so that Alaska may participate. The Canadian phone band on 40m runs from 7040 - 7300 kHz and is shared with digital modes.  Net control will move the frequency if VARA is on 7100 at the start of the net but once the net starts the frequency is not changed.  Every day there will be someone who keys up VARA over top of the net. At times the net must stop and pause.  I don't know much about VARA or it's software as it is an illegal digital mode in Canada. US amateurs might wish to consult FCC rules regarding closed source digital modes and the band they are allowed on.  I don't know if VARA users can't tell when they cause QRM or are even aware the frequency may already be in use.

[Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty]

>I don't know much about VARA or it's software as it is an illegal digital mode in Canada

No, it is legal in Canada. There are no illegal digital modes here, as long as it fits in the maximum allowed bandwidth.

Bob VE3TOK

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[Max]

Yes Ron,  VarAC does always listen to a channel before TX to make sure the channel is clear prior to initiating a CQ. The CQ call includes data to auto-QSY after contact is established and it is the op's responsibility to check the QSY channel chosen is clear at time of initiating a CQ. The channel bandwidth within the pre-programmed VarAC channels is 500Hz. There is a fast 2300Hz mode available but it's not permitted to use that within the designated channels for VarAC for obvious reasons.

I am in the UK and regarding SSB co-existence the opposite is often true. In middle of VarAC QSO and SSB station can often open up right on top, so sadly it cuts both ways. Although I'm not a regular SSTV operator I've noticed the same when I've been listening to (viewing?) SSTV on all bands. Clearly established contacts trampled on by high power SSB station. As in all things it comes down to operating manners.

The whole of the VarAC designated channels spans (on 40m) 7101.25 to 7108.75 so not sure how it should cause any QRM at all to a station operating 7100 on LSB? I wonder if it's maybe not VARA you are hearing? Some other digital modes do sound similar. Also the software (VarAC) does have the ability to QSY to a channel outside of the normal designated channels so in theory no op should cause QRM to a station already on a conflicting channel on any mode. Many VarAC ops are trying the software for the first time so they may not be fully aware of the ability to QSY outside of the channels that are preset as standard into the VarAC software. 

One point of note is that many Winlink gateways now use VARA HF. Some of these seem to have designated channels just below 7,100 kHz. I actually wonder if this is what is causing your issue rather than VarAC operators? Having said that I am sure same applies and that Winlink will not start sending data on a channel it sees as occupied? 

https://winlink.org/content/gateway_channels

(Click VARA option)

Given proliferation of new digital modes I guess it's inevitable that conflicts will occur somewhere. Not sure what the answer is. One would hope compromise as in most things, although it seems less common these days in all areas of life.

Was not aware that VARA is not allowed in VE land and after a quick Google I don't see anywhere that says this is the case. I wonder where there is information that states this is the case? I'd be interested to know.

You mention "closed source" digi modes, but Vara is freely decodable, not encrypted. Not sure where the issue would be here?

73

Max

[Ron]

In Canada digital modes used on amateur bands must be published in the
public domain ie open source. It doesn't matter if there is free
software to decode the digital mode it is the actual source code for the
digital mode that must be published in the public domain. It's a
question on the Basic test. Long time amateurs may need to review this.
VARA does not meet this requirement and any Canadian amateur
transmitting VARA is in violation.

Regardless it's disappointing to learn that these users can tell they
are deliberately stomping on an ongoing SSB net. At the moment someone
is practicing their CW over top of the net so bad manners certainly are
not limited to any one particular mode.

Thanks for the information.

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[Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty]

You mean this Basic test question, what is already there for a long time.

You wish to develop and use a new digital
encoding technique to transmit data over
amateur radio spectrum. Under what
conditions is this permissible

Answer:

When the encoding technique is

published in the public domain

Public domain doesn't necessarily means that you have to publish the source code! You only have to describe the encoding technique.
That could be in the form of a standard, block diagram, etc. Look here, I'm all for open source but what the developer of VARA is doing
by the way in his closed software with these encoding techniques is not a secret. They teach this stuff daily in Electrical Engineering courses.
You read more in that answer of that Basic test question as is there!

Bob VE3TOK

[Ron]

I guess I could write the minister and seek clarification. It seems to
run counter to the spirit of The Act for amateur radio in Canada.

Without access to the source how is it possible to verify what is in the
data being transmitted? FT8 has open source and the code has been
reviewed by myriads of people. It was written by a Noble prize winner in
Physics. I'm going to consider this a trusted source. As for VARA I'm
not going to transmit data around the world on a platform which can't
be verified. Legal or not.

[Clifford Heath]

In Australia there used to be a widespread confusion about the use of “encryption”. Folk thought it meant a blanket ban on amateurs using any form of encryption. In fact, just about any form of encryption is allowed, as long as the spooks can easily find out how to decode it (perhaps using published code as opposed to just specification, I’m not sure).

In addition, deliberately causing interference with any other legal use off the spectrum is disallowed, but I think that was obvious.

I suspect that Canada, being another of the Five Eyes countries, has the same rules.

Clifford Heath.

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[gadget...@gmail.com]

I have VarAc all working now.
It was simply a misunderstanding on my part as to where to tune and how to identify the signals.  I was using the preset frequencies in the VarAc list and the only one that was producing signals on that day was 10.133Mhs which is supposed to be a calling frequency (AFAIK) but was saturated with FT8.
After finding a good Sig ID page online I tuned around and found VarAc transmissions.
Haven't been in touch with Digital modes since the early days of Amtor so VarAC is a real nice mode for me as I wanted to find something that can be used for rag chewing.

Max - thank you for the great YT link to setting it up, I am sure I will learn much more about it from the video.

73,

Alan.

[Max]

Yes, you are correct Alan. I must admit I'm really not sure why, but with the 10MHz channels, the "upper" VarAC channels are not usable at all due to straying into FT8 section. It's a bit of a mystery. Having said that I don't think I've seen any VarAC activity on 10MHz yet. Most activity seems to be confined to 20m, then 40 and 80. Be nice to open up the WARC bands a bit more. But regarding 10MHz, yes, I think it's because the digital section is a tight squeeze to fit in yet another data mode. But the lower channels are usable and not much traffic yet so should be OK.

Anyway, glad you are up and running.

73

Max

[KD2NFC]

I have had varying success with this. It has worked but its still more reliable using my FT-847. 

[K Bonk]

Would you be willing to elaborate further on your setup to make Winlink work with SDR Console and Hermes lite 2? I have tried with and without a Digirig with no success. I installed VAC today and tried setting up to run that way as well. I can’t seem to get a connection with HF. I guess I need it spelled out for me so I can make sure I am not missing any steps. Thanks

[ldocull]

I have never set up SDR console for the HL2, so I think you best bet may be to reach out to the group.io community. I am sure someone there has done it.

Hope your holidays were great!

73

Larry 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2025, at 11:12 PM, K Bonk <bonk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would you be willing to elaborate further on your setup to make Winlink work with SDR Console and Hermes lite 2? I have tried with and without a Digirig with no success. I installed VAC today and tried setting up to run that way as well. I can’t seem to get a connection with HF. I guess I need it spelled out for me so I can make sure I am not missing any steps. Thanks

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[K Bonk]

For sure. Thank Larry

[K Bonk]

Larry, Would you care to share your settings for running Winlink on HL2? I am using Thetis now but just can’t get Virtual Audio Cables set right with VaraHF. I have gotten VarAC to connect this way but not Winlink. I am not sure about Virtual Audio Cables.

On Sunday, January 12, 2025 at 5:09:33 AM UTC-7 ldocull wrote: