Illegal HL2 Transmit and PA Use

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Group,

Unfortunately, I have some evidence that the HL2 is being used by unlicensed operators for transmit and amplified transmit. I don't know if/how this can be eliminated in an open project, but at least we can be careful when offering transmit and PA help. If there is any question regarding a poster, I suggest confirming via www.qrz.com or other database that a post is from a licensed amateur radio operator before offering any transmit or PA help. I am open to other recommendations.

73,

Steve

kf7o

 

[Alan Hopper]

Hi Steve,

Strangely I was asked about limiting tx out of band only the other day during a zoom talk on HL2, it was mentioned that Flex do strictly control this, I guess they can and have to as they are supplying a full system. As you say it is very tricky/impossible to stop on an open source project, I have started to look at adding band plan data to Spark but there are lots of legit uses of hl2 out of band e.g. using it as a signal generator. I did suggest a project to produce and maintain a machine readable bandplan dataset to the RSGB a couple of years ago but did not chase it up after a rather negative initial response.  I guess a warning in software might deter some but I can't see a technological way to prevent the determined. If anyone has a good set of words to state this is not an acceptable use for HL2 I'll certainly add them to Spark and perhaps they could be appended to the HL2 licence or some code of conduct for this group.  What do other opensource tx projects do?

73 Alan M0NNB

[si...@sdr-radio.com]

Alan,

 

In my case – nothing. Any twonk with half a brain can transmit wherever he wants. The RSGB and ARRL both have the band plan data which could be published in json / XML. SDR# has a band plan overlay, something I’ll add for myself.

 

Considering the number of HF DXers running the best part of 4kW the rules will be broken in-band let alone out of band.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

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[Jim Ancona]

I'd recommend being very careful about trying to deal with this issue via licensing. Whatever you think of Richard Stallman, I find this discussion of the problems with trying to restrict the use of software convincing: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html

In addition, imposing restrictions beyond what the existing open source license imposes risks incompatibility with licenses that don't impose the same restrictions, e.g. your program might inadvertently become incompatible with the GPL.

So I'm with Steve's original suggestion. Let's make an effort to avoid helping people who are operating illegally. But let's also try to avoid crippling legitimate use in a futile attempt at policing malicious users.

Jim N1ADJ

--

[ron.ni...@gmail.com]

I suppose it depends on whether the HL2 is connected to an antenna (e.g. not being used as a VNA or signal generator), in which zone of the world or legal jurisdiction it's being operated, and whether or not the operator has a government license different from or in addition to an amateur radio license, with different frequency privileges allowed, etc.

It's open source, but the default shipping gateware and software could make it non-trivial, if not difficult or impossible, to enable the power amplifier outside of well known amateur frequency allocations.  This might actually be a useful feature, as I've typo'd and/or otherwise accidentally configured the wrong frequencies when experimenting or testing stuff, and not remembering whether had I plugged the HL2 into a dummy load... or something else.

73,

Ron

n6ywu

[Graeme Jury]

Tx out of band is necessary when using the HL2 as a transverter although of course the final radiated signal is in band.

73, Graeme ZL2APV

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[Dave]

There are many open source projects that could enable people to do 'illegal things'. Rather than trying to police it before an event it's probably best to point out the requirements for transmitting in the ham bands and deal with any issues as and when they might happen. Licenced hams and listeners are good at keeping tabs of rough activities.

Dave - G6ZKC.

[DL1YCF]

Well, what is „out of band“ depends on the country you are living in, this is especially true for the 60m band.

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[Jeff Scaparra]

Yes and then there are Mars users that need to transmit outside of the ham bands as well. Flex deals with by validating your Mars status and then giving you a file that "unlocks" the radio. They can do that because they own the hardware and software. I don't see how that is possible here. 

Jeff

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[radi...@mail.com]

Nothing now or ever before will stop people building or adapting kit to transmit out of band. I'm with Simon on this one. Appreciate  your conscientiousness Steve but on this occasion it is sadly wasted. Just for starters what about the hundreds of thousands (more?) of bits of old analogue kit out there that can fired up to transmit on any frequency you care to name. Pointless spending any time worrying about it.

73

Max

[keyboa...@gmail.com]

People will abuse a signal generator given motivation. This project also has an important legal distinction (at least in the US) as it's sold as a kit, some assembly required. By comparison the Flex is sold as a turn-key system so there are stronger restrictions on sale. Being closed source also makes it much easier to them to lock in frequency ranges by region or service.

I've heard believable examples of people using an Anan on 11 meters. Who's at issue there? Technology can't fix a lack of enforcement. Protect yourselves from liability but you can't regulate morality.

I'd wager the HL is cleaner than most CBs at equivalent power, type acceptance aside.

Just my two cents.

73,
Jayson
AA7NM

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Group,

I'm not suggesting any drastic action here. Just be careful and try to confirm identify if you are helping with TX and PA questions. Googling an e-mail address or user name on YouTube can reveal a lot...

73,

Steve

kf7o

[Jean-Baptiste GALLAUZIAUX]

New member of this group in order to discover HL2 and possibly buy and build one with a Raspberry Pi-400.

I'd like to use it in Thailand and they have very strict rules about ham bands, they will never authorize the import of a transceiver or anything able to transmit outside of ham bands.

Is it possible to modify the gateware, software (I plan to use Quisk) in order that I can chose to allow or forbid out of band transmission? What part of firmware I should look inside and study?

73 - Pierre - FK8IH

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Pierre,

There are no out of band checks in the gateware. Software can limit TX to ham bands only. The last time I checked, Quisk allowed out of band TX.

73,

Steve

kf7o

[Sid Boyce]

Hi Pierre,
I don't see a problem.

The HL2 + N2ADR filter board covers only the HF ham bands pretty much
the same as any commercial HF bands transceiver.
The Pi-400 and quisk should be fine.

I run my HL2's using 2 PiHPSDRv2's comprising Pi 4 4GB and Pi 4 8GB with
the Pi 7 inch touch screens..
I had no problems running the HL2 using an ODROID-C2 and quisk also
using a 7 inch LCD.

I also have a HiQSDR + Pre-selector standalone (12W output) using an
ODROID-C2 and 7 inch LCD with quisk running at 1536K samplerate.
73 ... Sid.

On 10/07/2021 23:40, Jean-Baptiste GALLAUZIAUX wrote:
> New member of this group in order to discover HL2 and possibly buy and
> build one with a Raspberry Pi-400.
> I'd like to use it in Thailand and they have very strict rules about
> ham bands, they will never authorize the import of a transceiver or
> anything able to transmit outside of ham bands.
> Is it possible to modify the gateware, software (I plan to use Quisk)
> in order that I can chose to allow or forbid out of band transmission?
> What part of firmware I should look inside and study?
> 73 - Pierre - FK8IH
>

> Le mardi 1 décembre 2020 à 18:43:33 UTC+11, softerh...@gmail.com a
> écrit :

> <http://www.qrz.com> or other database that a post is from

> a licensed amateur radio operator before offering any
> transmit or PA help. I am open to other recommendations.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
> kf7o

> Â

>
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--
Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

[ron.ni...@gmail.com]

If someone plans on going down this path, it would be nice if there was a standard text file format, where one could enter the band edges appropriate for their legal jurisdiction and license class (and/or transverter setup, etc.).  Then software could (optionally, or optionally not) parse this standardized file, and display a warning (etc.) if someone (accidentally, etc.) tried to key or PTT outside of the ranges specified by their chosen file.  If there's room in the FPGA, it might even be possible for a build script to read this file to pre-configure a customized gateware source, if required for certain HL2 deployments.

73,

Ron

n6ywu

[Ed Grafton]

I am using a Ten Tec 1208 transverter with my HL2. Input is 20 meters & output is 6 meters. I do go out of band on 20 meters to get to the AM calling freq. Restricting this would not favor me, as this is my main usage of it.

I do understand the concern, but the majority of users are going to use it properly. 

Ed

[Roger Critchlow]

The concern is that some national authorities will ban the HL2 if it cannot restrict itself to legal transmissions.  A version of the gateware which could restrict transmission to selected bands is entirely possible, since it is just a comparison of TX frequency to permitted band ranges inclusive or'ed together and and'ed with transmit enable.  A version of the gateware could implement such a comparison and the code needed to rewrite the band limits. It might require more FPGA resources than are available without sacrificing the number of receivers in the gateware.  A version of the factory gateware could be programmed with conservative band limits such that the radio on import was incapable of producing an out of band transmission, assuming that there is some universally legal set of ham bands.  (I guess the empty set would be universally legal.)  The limits could be reprogrammed by the end user or eliminated by installing unrestricted gateware.

This is a whole bunch of work.  You need to rewrite the gateware to implement the band restrictions and the ability to reprogram them.  You need to write a program that can reprogram the band limits.  You need to test this new gateware to the fullest extent possible.  You need to find the band limits that are universally legal.  And then you need to set up MakerFabs with the new factory gateware.  And you need to answer the questions from new users who don't understand why the transmit bands are limited by default and can't figure out how to change or eliminate the band limits.  But worst of all, you need to figure out whether the nit-picking national authorities will accept this solution, when they will probably insist on having a concrete implementation before even considering the question.

I believe most kit radios get shipped around without worrying about this at all, using some kind of experimental radio kit rule exception.

-- 73 -- ad5dz -- rec --

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[Anthony N1IG]

don't blame the car manufacturer for the scoundrel who decides to drive it while drunk.

since the HL2 can't actually do anything without external software, and some of those programs already come with the ability to limit OOB transmissions, I wouldn't expend much effort trying to address it.

Anthony - N1IG

[Sebastien F4GRX]

I agree.

A knife, a hammer, a fork, a chopstick, all these devices can kill.

Yet you find these "everywhere".

Good usage of tools is the responibility of the tool user, not the tool manufacturer.

So there is absolutely nothing to change on the hermes lite.

if some countries wont allow its use, then so be it. why should we care about strange countries that cant tell the difference between CB and hams? Restricting an open source DIY ham device to regulated operation would be kind of an outrage. What is the point of a SDR if you restrict its usage to AM/FM? It's not what ham radio is about.

And since it's SDR, and if that limitation is still required, then it should be done as a... software definition, right?

Regarding "illegal transmit and PA use by radio pirates" : why should we care? There are bad people everywhere, should we check the moral background of every member of this list and act accordingly? I dont think so: Regulations and restrictions on this matter are known by everyone and there are authorities to enforce it, FCC, OFCOM, ANFR, every country has its agency with inspectors and directional radio gear to identify offenders. So it's the role of these authorities to check proper transmit usage, not ours.

Sebastien

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[Evan Hand]

Sebastien wrote,

         "And since it's SDR, and if that limitation is still required, then it should be done as a... software definition, right?"

I have to agree that the limits should be in the software that is controlling the HL2, not the gateway firmware.

73

Evan

AC9TU

[vis...@gmail.com]

My take on this is that countries that are going to restrict use of HL2 or any other kit will probably require their local equivalent of FCC Type certification for any radio used to transmit.  This is more than any open-source kit can aspire to, especially given that any given country may have its own certification rules and procedures.  If someone wants to pick up the HL2 and make it a product in a given market, the open source nature of the product supports that, and the person making the product can make whatever gateware or other changes needed to meet the legal restrictions of the appropriate jurisdiction(s).  There is really nothing we can or should do about local restrictions beyond keeping the product open-source so that others can adapt it.

73,

Eric Lund

AC0OP

["Christoph v. Wüllen"]

I assert this position. In most countries, hams are allowed to build their own gear,
and so as long as it is a kit, it does need "local FCC" approval. I know that
one well-known transceiver was sold in DL as a "kit" for some time
(well, you just had to put two things together and fix some screws) for the
time it had no CE approval.

If there is someone who wants to bring the HL2 to market as a "complete device",
even if it is a dealer who sells only one piece of it, this is a completely
different story. But this is "sb. else's problem", isn't it?

Christoph Dl1YCF.

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[vis...@gmail.com]

My thoughts exactly.  If it is legal to build and use kits, HL2 is a kit, so no big deal.  If not, someone has to bring it to market which is not our problem.  We have shown them the way, but they have to handle the regulatory stuff.  That is a big part of the reason why things like HL2 can be cheaper than their commercial counterparts.

Eric Lund

AC0OP

[vis...@gmail.com]

There is, of course, the devils advocate position of, "why bother with things like suppressing spurious emissions and so forth," but I would argue that is a different case altogether since it goes to the technical quality of the product first and foremost, and only goes to regulations as a fallback against poor quality gear on the air.  In the end, it is still up to the individual operator to ensure a clean signal  AND operation within permitted bands whether the transmitter is sold as a kit or as a complete unit.

Eric Lund

AC0OP