New SuperSpeed FTDI USB-FIFO Bridge Chip!

[Steve Haynal]

A list member sent me a private note about FTDI's new SuperSpeed USB interface chip. I've been hoping FTDI would release something like this. This will make it easy to transfer the full bandwidth of the AD9866 to a host computer and minimize FPGA requirements. I still think a FPGA is needed for glue but this $12 Cyclone IV would be more than adequate. Ideally, I'd like to keep enough FPGA processing power (and the $12 part has enough) to support users without USB 3.0 to mix down to USB 2.0 bandwidths for a single RX/TX. 

Please let this list know if anyone sees the first development kits or prices for this new chip.

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Amogh Desai]

Hey Steve,

These guys at BladeRF are already using USB 3.0 chip (from cypress) + Cyclone IV.

FTDI has not come out with a dev board yet..

-Amogh

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Amogh,

Yes, I've been watching the BladeRF and Cypress' Ez USB FX3. I'm a bit put off by the FX3 price in the upper $20 range and hope the FTDI part will be under $10. Maybe the FX3 will go down in price once the FT600 and FT601 are released and there is more competition in this space. The FTDI part is also more plug and play as it is just a FIFO. FTDI also includes generic drivers which is helpful. In the past, they have given customers USB sub IDs as well. You have to have a valid USB ID for a device and this can cost real money.

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Steve Haynal]

I forgot to mention that I have contacted FTDI and they will start sampling the FT600 and FT601 in March.

[Amogh Desai]

Just found this 

http://www.eeherald.com/section/news/owns201506030001a.html

http://in-preprod.rsdelivers.com/product/ftdi-chip/ft601q/ft601q-usb-bridge-ic-usb-20-usb-30-at-5gbps-18-25-33-v-76-pin-qfn/8750012.aspx

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Amogh,

Thanks for the links! I haven't seen these parts available on any US site yet (www.findchips.com) but my contact at FTDI gave the the following price information with availability With full production in Q3:

Here is the pricing that we could offer on the FT600 (unfortunately I don’t have the 601 pricing yet, but it would probably be close to this):

 

Qty                         Price

1+                           $8.16

25+                         $7.80

50+                         $7.44

100+                      $7.08

I do think the usb 3.0 is a very interesting and worthwhile option and believe you can do the full decimation and filtering for at least 1 or 2 receivers on an inexpensive single board computer. I am leaning towards gigabit ethernet though for the following reasons:

1. Least amount of software development as we are already running with ethernet. (I'm lazy and time limited...)
2. Ability to keep the station at some distance from the PC.
3. No costly USB id to purchase, or conflict potential if reusing one of FTDI's IDs.
4. No driver requirement. This sort of fits in with 1 and 3.
5. Can still fit entire 12 bit stream at 73.728MHz in less than 1 Gbs. VK6PH has some experimental data.
6. No glueless connection to AD9866 for either USB or ethernet so might as well have a small FPGA that can be used for some DSP offload.

I do think that from only a price perspective the USB option is a bit cheaper by $2-$5 per unit when you consider all extras (PHY + connector + more PS regulation for ethernet, or FT600 + connector for USB).

What do other think? USB 3.0 or gigabit ethernet?

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Steve Dick]

I vote Gig Ethernet for reasons 1-6 that you state all of which far outweigh the relatively small additional cost.  The ability to operate remotely and no driver requirement are major plusses, as well as its maturity compared to USB 3.0. Cabling cost is also lower with Gig E, somewhat offsetting the additional HW cost.

 

“Digital Steve”, K1RF

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[John Laur]

IMO Ethernet currently offers the most compatibility and future potential given the current firmware and software stack. The HPSDR USB protocol is not being extended anymore. Writing software is a lot easier as well.

The only thing marginally atractive about switching is the higher bandwidth which is really only useful for some niche applications involving transporting the full raw ADC or DAC streams, and in the case of Hermes Lite, gigabit ethernet can already suffice. Into the future Ethernet does not stop at 1Gbps either. There is 10GbE and unbeknownst to many the multigigabit 2.5/5Gb support that has been quietly sneaking into regular 'gigabit' hardware for the last year or two.

Here is another interesting possibility to consider: It may be possible to use USB3.0 to transport Ethernet frames at >1GBps by enumerating as a 10GBps ethernet interface. Our FPGA code could continue to 'speak' ethernet.

If we were to invest the time into a major protocol/interface change to support ultra-high bandwidth applications, switching to PCI Express would make more sense to me. It's faster than USB 3, it has DMA and peer transfers (useful for copying from ADC to GPU), and a variety of inexpensive internal and external interfaces (Thunderbolt, ExpressCard, plus the native standard that is part of PCIe). There are even PCIe<->USB3 bridge chips. More importantly the hardware PCIE interface is being built into the FPGAs. If you take apart any modern piece of high end test gear you will find a simple PCIe interface between the PC and the FPGAs.

73, John K5IT

[Bob Recny]

Hi all,

Please note that the FT600/601 states it can achieve throughput bursts of 400Mbytes/sec (http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/DataSheets/ICs/DS_FT600Q-FT601Q%20IC%20Datasheet.pdf - front page feature list).

It's quite similar to the Sync FIFO mode of the FT232H and FT2232H, except faster.  Those chips could provide 60Mbytes/sec in a burst fashion.  Actual throughput was more like 40Mbytes/sec.. 

Just another data point to keep in mind when looking at USB.

Also keep in mind that "SuperSpeed" is 5Gbps raw rate and "SuperSpeed+" is 10Gbps raw rate.

Bob / N8SQT

[pascal.v...@gmail.com]

I also prefer ethernet link that allow remote use of the HL, a main advantage of this kind of project.

[Steve Haynal]

Hi John,

Another option that looks interesting to me is MIPI. http://mipi.org/specifications/camera-interface. The Raspberry PI has one. Lattice sells inexpensive interfaces.

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Steve Haynal]

Although the FTDI interface would make a very interesting project (anyone interested?) I am still leaning towards a gigabit interface. Those who want USB can still use one of the many inexpensive ethernet to USB adapters. I do this with my laptop and the Hermes-lite.

73,

Steve

KF7O

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:51:43 PM UTC-7,

[ik1xpv]

Hi list,

I made some questions related to FT600 throughput to FTDI Support. They kindly said:

<< The mean transfer rate depends on the USB host bandwidth allocation for the FT600. If the USB host bandwidth is enough, we are able to reach 350 MB/s (FT601) and 180 MB/s (FT600) effective data transfer to PC as a very steady speed. Please note, however, that due to the way USB transfers work, the actual rate at any instant depends on other devices sharing the same USB host controller (which will be handling multiple physical USB ports on the PC) and also the speeds of the OS and application. For that reason, I’m afraid we can’t guarantee a particular rate of transfer.

I spoke to the designers of the FT600 and they told me the FT600 support Burst Writes at the FIFO IO side, we expect the FIFO master to write in data in a burst manner, which reduces the FIFO bus turn around overhead. In the USB side, we support USB burst packet transfer, so the throughput can be improved. >>

It confirms the Bob N8SQT advice and the Steve initial cost analysis that contains a 12$ glue FPGA.

73,

Oscar 

IK1XPV

[Steve Haynal]

If you are just moving data between the AD9866 and the FT600, you may be able to use an inexpensive microprocessor or microcontroller. The clock rates on both sides will be different but you can buffer in the microcontroller software. It may be less expensive and simpler than FPGA glue.

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Sid Boyce]

Hi Steve,
The discussion was ended here with the impression that no decision has
been made.

As John Laur opined, Ethernet is also my preference as I always depend
on being able to be able to access HL from any PC/Embedded platform on
the LAN as a priority.

The other solutions seem to tie HL to a single host.
73 ... Sid.

On 30/07/15 06:10, Steve Haynal wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Another option that looks interesting to me is

> MIPI. http://mipi.org/specifications/camera-interface. The Raspberry

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[Steve Haynal]

Hi Sid,

We are going with gigabit ethernet. See this wiki page for the most up to date v2.0 plans.

73,

Steve

KF7O

[Sid Boyce]

Thanks Steve,
That's just great.
73 ... Sid.

On 02/01/16 06:44, Steve Haynal wrote:
> Hi Sid,
>

> We are going with gigabit ethernet. See this wiki page
> <https://github.com/softerhardware/Hermes-Lite/wiki/Hermes-Lite-2.0>Â for

> the most up to date v2.0 plans.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
> KF7O
>
> On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 5:46:52 PM UTC-8, Sid Boyce wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> The discussion was ended here with the impression that no decision
> has
> been made.
>
> As John Laur opined, Ethernet is also my preference as I always
> depend
> on being able to be able to access HL from any PC/Embedded
> platform on
> the LAN as a priority.
>
> The other solutions seem to tie HL to a single host.
> 73 ... Sid.
>

[K Bonk]

I see that you wrote this post 10 years ago Steve but I wanted to ask you about this simple connection between Hermes Lite and your laptop. I have an older Dell Inspiron 3700 and can’t get more than 100 Mbps with a Cat 5e cable. I would love to upgrade the PC but I think the Ethernet card is part of the motherboard. What kind of speeds did you get with the usb to Ethernet adapter? Any particular one you recommend?

Kevin

KK7LMI

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Kevin,

Unless you are running the 10RX firmware, 100Mbps is enough for the HL2. Even if you have all 4 standard receivers active at the widest 384kHz setting, you are using 70-80 Mbps.

73,

Steve

kf7o