Best SDR companion to HL2 for 2-meter band?

[Bill Cox AI6SJ]

Maybe a transverter and 2m RF amp?  That could be fun.  What should I do?

Oddly, the lack of digital remote control of my 2m handytalkie is the #1 reason I have trouble participating in my local ham radio club (Marin Amateur Radio Society).  My Yeasu HT Vx-6 drives my family members nuts when I monitor the club repeater all day.

I need the ability to listen to our club's repeater through the same headphones I have plugged into my laptop.  With poor vision, I often use a screen reader, so I'm plugged in most of the time.  I also would love the ability to send/receive remotely, from work or even the bus.

Bill ai6sj

[Anthony N1IG]

never played with one, but seems interesting:

https://www.hobbypcb.com/index.php/products/uhf-vhf-radio/rs-uv3a

[Mooneer Salem]

I have one of the ~$60 Ukrainian transverters and I've yet to get it working well with the HL2. The main problem is that it seems extremely deaf vs. even VHF/UHF FM radios like my Kenwood TM-D700A, so some sort of preamp and sequencer type thing is necessary. However, when I hooked an eBay sequencer/TX/RX relay and one of the cheap preamp boards I found on Amazon together, the green LED on the transverter's PCB began turning off on transmit (which I'm pretty sure isn't supposed to happen). I'd definitely appreciate any suggestions that people may have to get the transverter working reliably.

On that note, if you're willing to spend a fair bit of money on it, I hear that Q5 Signal/Down East Microwave's transverters are very good. There's even a five band one that was recently released that would let you use the HL2 on other VHF/UHF bands as well, though for full coverage of some of them I'd see if the IF band can be customized.

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Mike Lewis]

I am currently running my HL2 with transverters, one at tie for now.  First I started with a 50MHz to monitor for openings, but now I have a 2M Xvtr connected.  I am using SparkSDR with to be a 2M WSPR beacon (144.489MHz), and also monitor FT-8 (!44.174Mhz).    It compares well with my Q5 5-band transverters and K3 running WSJT-X on the same bands. The antennas are both beams pointed the same direction but 30ft apart.  I am able to chat on 144.200 and do FT8 on the big rig.  When the WSPR TX is active, only 6 or 8 times an hour, I get elevated noise floor on the K3 side, but it has not affected normal daily operation so I am planning now to add control to the HL2 to switch transverters, or possibly transmit on 2 in parallel, 2M and 1296 likely.  We have no beacons around here on VHF in the Seattle area.  The advantage of using the HL2 is I can RX also so can upload spots on FT8 and WSPR for the 1 selected RX band.

 

An enhancement to this I am contemplating- I control my transverters with an external GPDSO disciplined LO source.  I can retune the LO in each transverter slightly to land the Xvtr IF frequency slightly above or below normal then use a splitter to combine the multiple RX outputs into one single 28Mhz IF to the HL2, tuning multiple Virtual receivers to each digital mode frequency, now spread around a bit so show on 1 spectrum.  The combined noise is not ideal but should be interesting to try it.

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[Bill Cox]

Thanks for the info.  What about buying a completely separate HackRF One?  That would be cheaper than a good transverter and would still let me hack with SDR on UHF/VHF if I felt so inclined.  If I hear someone on the 2 m repeater, I can grab my handy-talkie for a quick reply.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/CO6PR18MB38580BC2DBFFAE4F4CDEED64F60D9%40CO6PR18MB3858.namprd18.prod.outlook.com.

[Alan Hopper]

Hi Bill,

I also use one of the cheap Ukrainian xverters on 2m and have lots of fun with it on a daily net held since the beginning of lockdown in the Uk. It is a fun challenge as the group are spread around a load of hills (north downs and surrey hills). I could do with a little more power on tx but on rx I have no problems.

The frequency stability is not great but using the clock op from the HL2 is a fun little project  that should fix that.

If you just want rx you could use a SDRPlay alongside the HL2 in the latest SparkSDR betas.
73 Alan M0NNB

[ron.ni...@gmail.com]

For listening in on airband or repeaters and such, the Raspberry Pi's that I use with my HL2 are also connected to an Airspy HF+ and a (very inexpensive) RTL-SDR for VHF and UHF monitoring.  I can stream all of them over the network for remote monitoring via rtl_tcp (and work-alikes, such as hfp_tcp and hl2_tcp).

73,

Ron

n6ywu

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Alan,

I'm not sure which model you have exactly but the one I have is https://www.ebay.com/itm/264891817401. Supposedly it's "highly stable" as well as supports multiple IF frequencies but I've yet to have it work well enough to find out whether the former is true or not :) 

Though speaking of stability, I should also revisit using an external clock with my HL2. What's been stopping me from trying is that the GPSDO that I have (an older version of https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/gps-disciplined-ocxo/ with a +13dBm sine and 5V CMOS output) may output a clock signal that exceeds the maximum voltage of the VersaClock. I could be misunderstanding based on my reading of the datasheets and the HL2 schematic, though.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/6d095efc-8458-4b5d-9554-a45ac54c5c7en%40googlegroups.com.

[radi...@mail.com]

Hi Bill

For decent performance you are probably better off sticking with HL2 plus a decent transverter.

You might also want to view this thread from some time ago. Lots to read through but also lots of useful information including discussion of the various Ukrainian units (the are not all the same):

https://groups.google.com/g/hermes-lite/c/lUknSS8_uFA/m/ezvqQO4UAgAJ

If you go down the separate transceiver solution, maybe look at the cost effective Adalm Pluto (but needs filters/amp adding of course). Lots of people use that piece of kit (with some widely documented stability mods) for QO100 etc:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/ADALM-PLUTO?qs=xbccQsLEe0ffoUoi%2FjfIWA%3D%3D

73

Max

[Alan Hopper]

sent this direct by mistake

Hi Mooneer,

that does look better than the one I have. It makes things simpler by having a decent clock and not using the HL2 clock op especially if you also want to sync two HL2s at the same time as having a xverter.

In my ideal world I'd like a very simple undersampling network connected transceiver for each band.

73 Alan M0NNB  

[Roger David Powers]

> What about buying a completely separate HackRF One?  

I own one of these.  

Its strong points are that it's been around so long there is so much software support for it (especially in the gnuradio world) and covers a large frequency spectrum, yet it really is meant for experimenters and it shows a lot of weaknesses when you try to target it to a specific application such as VHF/UHF ham radio use.

It is meant to be general purpose so it has no effective front end analog filtering so it picks up alias signals from all kinds of sources.

Its transmit power is in the milliwatts so an outboard TX amplifier is needed except for very short range communication.

It has eight bit samples thus little dynamic range.  Strong in-band signals make it so it cannot represent weak in-band signals with much resolution.

It's standard clock is pretty 'drifty' although there are third party add-on TXCOs that are much better.  Same is true for Pluto by the way, their wiki tells you they chose a low cost clock to keep cost down and hoped the research world would find ways to compensate which from what I can tell has not led to any breakthroughs. 

So, in the end you would almost certainly need to add front end bandpass filters for the band(s) of interest, then a RX LNA appropriate to the bands of interest, then one or two stages of amplification on the TX side, and you are still left with the RX dynamic range issue. 

If I was heading down this path I'd start with LimeSDR, at least you get past the 8 bit dynamic range issue, but you'd run into at least some of the other problems shortly thereafter.

Seems a purpose-built transverter is a good approach if you already own the HL2.  The good ones are not cheap but I think my post may give some reasons why they are not cheap, especially if you consider the limited market size.

Really about the only thing I use my hackrf1 for these days is to occasionally drive it with gnuradio to generate various signals to test other gear.  I have seen others have good luck using it for receiving local strong VHF/UHF signals such as key fobs, utility meters, local public service stuff, etc.  I have not seen anyone happily using it for day to day ham radio use.

Oh, by the way, our wiki's software page gives links to a github repo containing gnuradio support for HL2 and I've built and run it successfully against gr3.8 but it will need work to work in current gr3.9 world.  For the things I care about which is HF monitoring, HL2 is even a better research vehicle than hackrf1 is.  It already has most of the things I say you need above.

Regards,

RDP

[Roger David Powers]

+++ For listening in on airband or repeaters and such, the Raspberry Pi's that I use with my HL2 are also connected to an Airspy HF+ and a (very inexpensive) RTL-SDR for VHF and UHF monitoring.  

I have both of these.

I am quite happy with the Airspy HF+ for HF monitoring.  I have built the gnuradio stack for it from source and that went fine, but most of the time I am using it with a raspberry pi 3b with the 'pisdr' image.  It was a clean out of the box experience although I do have some prior linux and rpi experience so maybe I'm not the best judge of ease of use.  I installed the VNC server and I have gqrx feeding data into wsjtx for ft4/ft8 stuff that I can monitor over my wifi via vnc, and if you set up a RealVNC account you can access it from anywhere on the Internet.  I bought the MFJ SDR TXRX switch and it is on the RX port running wjtx most of the time whereas the HL2 is on the TXRX port.  My goal is to replace the HF+ with a second HL2 with multi-band automated monitoring.  As per the radioberry thread I'm looking for an app to gather the data from the HL2 to do that.  Maybe hl2_tcp will do the job?

I have a RTL-SDR V3 dongle as well.  It was fun to play with for a while but it now sits on a shelf and only occasionally gets plugged in.  IMO without a preamp it is not a very good VHF/UHF receiver.  I was running piaware (aircraft ads-b monitoring image for rpi) and it wasn't doing that well until I bought the outboard preamp with bandpass filter.  I've also tried it to do other aircraft monitoring but it could not even receive the local airport's ATIS signal consistently.  It seems to do a competent job at VHF aviation monitoring it would also need a preamp with bandpass filter for the aviation band.  I could leave it running piaware but the area has so many people doing ads-b reporting that it's really a waste of electricity to do so.

I guess I should sell off a few radios I am no longer using, lol.

Regards,

RDP

[Roger David Powers]

Yesterday I made some comments on the Pluto SDR: 

+++ It's standard clock is pretty 'drifty' although there are third party add-on TXCOs that are much better.  Same is true for Pluto by the way, their wiki tells you they chose a low cost clock to keep cost down and hoped the research world would find ways to compensate which from what I can tell has not led to any breakthroughs. 

And today a friend sent me this link:

https://qrznow.com/pluto-plus-sdr-an-adalm-pluto-upgrade/

So there is now a 'Pluto Plus' variant with a much better TXCO onboard, along two TX and two RX channels, micro-sd for storage and gigabit ethernet to avoid the USB 2.0 performance bottleneck.  Not sure where its performance bottleneck is, but am thinking the onboard zynq cpu might not be fast enough to move all that data. I think my earlier comments apply in that you'd want external rx and tx amplification tuned for the band(s) of interest but at least you won't need the extra mixing stage that a transverter has.

It has some other positives in that it can boot the original Pluto firmware so you should be able to use it with the current MATLAB and gnuradio support.  Note that the gnuradio support finally got merged into their master branch recently.

I'd be interested to know if anyone uses this with good results for VHF/UHF ham radio stuff.  Feel free to point me at another email list or send me direct email, I don't want to take this list too far off tangent. 

Regards,

RDP

[radi...@mail.com]

Loads of posts regarding the Pluto and several users (often on QO-100) on the SDR Console support group:

https://forum.sdr-radio.com

Scroll down until you get to the "radios" section at bottom of list. Pluto has its own section.

73

Max

[Toon Fiets]

Hi,

I'm using HL2 with SDRConsole, a ' Russian'  144-28 MHz transverter and a 100W PA. 

The transverter does not have the TCXO but is stable enough to make Digi-modes QSO's (FT8/MSK/FSK/JTMS) over long distances.

Also my station is remotely controlled to overcome the man made noise coming from mainly solar cell inverters.

73's antoon/pa3bwe

[radi...@mail.com]

Think I am right in saying the Pluto+ is from a third party, not the original designers manufacturers. I am sure it's good, but not sure up to standards achievable using HL2 + transverters? In fairness don't know for sure, but just going on what others have said that HL2 + transverters is a great route to go for good and predictable performance and it's what I had intended from the start. Don't forget Pluto will need amplifier and filters adding. Most transverters output around 10-20W already, with filtering all built in.

For myself, not sure what the situation is in the USA, but here in the UK it's fairly easy to come by good quality but perhaps slightly older transverters as many were produced in the 80s and 90s, principally by manufacturer Microwave Modules. By careful browsing of used markets, I've slowly managed to acquire a full set of cheap transverters, Microwave Modules for 6m,  a different one for 4m (G3WPO design), MM again for 2m and also MM for 70cm. I didn't pay more than 50 GBP for any one of them (actually picked up two on eBay for £40 GBP for both, so 20 GBP each) so they are available and they can all be configured to take split RX/TX in/outs as standard which nicely suits the HL2 RF1 and RF3 external connections.

It was an easy operation to pick up RF3 (separate RX input on the HL2) from the header connecting the N2ADR filter board to the HL2 via mini-coax to a separate SMA on the back panel of the HL2. Using RF1 17dBm output to the transverter removes the risk of accidentally leaving the HL2 PA enabled and blowing the transverter RX front end or TX mixer with 5W power out from the HL2 RF2 output in error.

Had my first contact yesterday using the 6m MM transverter into HL2 and using SDRC. Worked a charm. So it's perfectly possible to use HL2 to get on VHF/UHF and achieve great performance for very little money.

I looked a the Ukraine transverters and they do seem like great value, but seems they may possibly have drift issues + spurious outputs if the PA is driven to the stated power output so I just opted for tried and tested (but older) designs.

https://youtu.be/w8JQ0SIUlI8?t=1051

73

Max

On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 17:05:57 UTC+1 RD Powers wrote:

[radi...@mail.com]

Hi Antoon

Be interested to know which Ukraine transverter provider you chose? I guess by running the 100w PA you avoid having to run the output of the transverter too hard which nicely avoids the possibility of spurious outputs?

As per my earlier post , I looked at these units. There are plenty of mods around to fix the drift (although seems you don't have an issue here). Don't now how true it is, but I did read that the units from "Transverter Store" are copies of the original units from UR3LMZ?

He sells the originals on ebay, store "hfvhfparts":

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132326955863

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132326955863

This one is dual band 144/432 and has synth instead of crystal so presumably is more stable?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142638577723

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142638577723

Be interested to know if others on here bought from this seller (hfvhfparts, not Transverter Store) and if so what is the performance like? I still might consider using their boards as basis for a multiband transverter (6/4/2/70cm) all in one enclosure if the performance is acceptable.

73

Max

[Bill Cox AI6SJ]

Thanks for all the tips!  I'm sending my HackRF back to Amazon tomorrow, unopened.  I've got a few radio projects on my plate, so I'll put off the transverter for now.  However, it sounds like a good solution.

Maybe someone should design a kit transverter for HL2?  It seems a shame to pair the low-cost HL2 with all its functionality with a $500+ transverter, not that they aren't worth it, but both the HL2 and HR-50 come in around $300 each after all the bells, whistles, tax and shipping.  I bet a decent transverter kit could be done in the same range.

Bill AI6SJ

[Mike Lewis]

Take a look at the various W1GHZ low cost transverter designs.  One of these might appeal to you.

 

W1GHZ Transverters

 

 

 

From: herme...@googlegroups.com <herme...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bill Cox AI6SJ
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 18:47
To: Hermes-Lite <herme...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Best SDR companion to HL2 for 2-meter band?

 

Thanks for all the tips!  I'm sending my HackRF back to Amazon tomorrow, unopened.  I've got a few radio projects on my plate, so I'll put off the transverter for now.  However, it sounds like a good solution.

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[Roger David Powers]

+++ Think I am right in saying the Pluto+ is from a third party, not the original designers manufacturers. I am sure it's good, but not sure up to standards achievable using HL2 + transverters? In fairness don't know for sure, but just going on what others have said that HL2 + transverters is a great route to go for good and predictable performance and it's what I had intended from the start. Don't forget Pluto will need amplifier and filters adding. Most transverters output around 10-20W already, with filtering all built in.

I think you are right on all of the above.  HL2 has exceeded my expectations in every way and I'm sure the same excellent qualities show when used in conjunction with a transverter.  I'm just reacting to some of the comments made about the affordable general purpose research/experimentation SDRs since I've had hands on with most of them over the last two years or so and like to think I acquired some information worth sharing with this community.

So, if I may, a bit more tangential rambling from me.  The original Pluto was an Analog Devices product designed for teaching purposes.  It was a good approach by the company because it gets them mind-share for their products in this relatively new field.  They've also published a related textbook that uses the device for its exercises. I particularly like their software architecture and all the work they've done on the Linux IIO (Industrial I/O) subsystem.  Yet as above they needed to keep costs low for the student market so there is room for improvement with a more expensive variant.  They put all the hardware and software files into the public domain so it makes sense that an "international team" came up with Pluto+.  I can't vouch for its quality in any way, although I am impressed with the design choices they made and that it can run the original Pluto firmware so it has full backward compatibility.

Now, back to the main topic.  I am very impressed with your comments on the Microwave Modules projects.  I remember seeing them advertised in QST in years past.  I am glad to hear you are getting great results using them in conjunction with HL2.  As I wrote earlier, there is a lot to be said for a purpose-built device.

Regards,
RDP

[radi...@mail.com]

Hi RDP

Thanks for comments. Early days yet with the old MM transverters but I believe from what's been written in the past that they were always reasonably well respected a few years back so although I dare say modern transverters are improved in many respects, the MM units I am sure will be adequate for me at least for a while anyway. I will update in the months to come once I have some decent antennas attached.

73

Max

[Duncan Clark]

In message <79805721-b0c8-49a4...@googlegroups.com>,
Bill Cox AI6SJ writes

>Maybe someone should design a kit transverter for HL2?  It seems a
>shame to pair the low-cost HL2 with all its functionality with a $500+
>transverter, not that they aren't worth it, but both the HL2 and HR-50
>come in around $300 each after all the bells, whistles, tax and
>shipping.  I bet a decent transverter kit could be done in the same range.

For 23cm, go with the SG-Lab transverter (after a low power 2m
transverter).

https://www.sg-lab.com/TR1300/tr1300.html

For 70cm and 2m, go with G4DDK's designs.

http://www.g4ddk.com/Products.html

For full duplex go with OH2GAQ's designs which although designed for 2m
work fine in my hands, with BPF modifications, for 6m, 4m and 2m.

May be a good combination with the AliExpress Radioberry given that one
does not need the N2ADR LPF or the 5W PA.

>Steve Haynal
>unread,
>Apr 13, 2020, 4:40:16 AM
>to Hermes-Lite
>Hi Group,
>
>Hamish, OH2GAQ, has been working on a transverter for the HL2. N2ADR
>and I have had some private correspondence with Hamish. He has now
>posted his work to the public. You can find it at Full Duplex MTC:
>https://www.qsl.net/oh2gaq/projects.html#fdx_trans
>
>73,
>
>Steve
>kf7o


Duncan
--
Duncan Clark
G4ELJ

[Bill Cox AK3Q]

I've just ordered a second HL2 with N2ADR filter board and enclosure, which I hope to use with a transverter for the 2m and 70cm bands.  I know the filter is not required, but for the extera $50, I can use it as a QRP rig..  I've also ordered a Ukrainian dual-band transverter.  Hopefully this will hit the local repeater OK, but we'll see.  It should be a lot of fun, and one way or another, I'll get my signal into the club repeater.

[Jo Oak]

Maybe a silly question. I saw the mail chain mentioned hl2 rev9 added uhf/vhf capability. What does it mean? Uhf/vhf without transverter?

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[Steve Haynal]

Hi,

There is no UHF/VHF capability in the HL2 rev9. There are no plans to add this. Many users like using an external transverter with the HL2, and that is the way to add UHF/VHF capability.

73,

Steve

kf7o

[Bill Cox]

I'm trying the transverter route.  My second HL2 is on order, and hopefully will ship soon.  I've also ordered a 2-band transverter for 2m and 70cm from ebay.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/fe5739c1-ab01-43ba-9168-81627ba3a37fn%40googlegroups.com.

[ron.ni...@gmail.com]

Has anyone here tried a LimeSDR, LimeSDR Mini, or ADALM Pluto for SDR stuff on 2m and/or 70cm?  How might operating one of those (plus an LNA+amplifier+filter) on 2M/70cm compare to using an HL2 (plus a transverter or two)?

Thanks,

Ron

n6ywu

[Mike Lewis]

I was in the process of trying out a Pluto Plus to compare against my stack of transverters but my unit is bricked or failed so working on sending it back for repair now. 

 

For a quick test I have a triplexer that I will use to connect 3 transverters.  They will naturally provide some filtering.  Further I have narrow bandpass filters I will try inline as well, each going to a brick amp and their antenna.  I have a 600Mhz to 6.5GHz UWB dish here that will be another experiment, first on RX without filters, then add in filters and LNA and such band by band.  Will have to add switching for all of that.  I built a ethernet connected band decoder so can manually switch with a software button push initially.

 

One person in Florida area has been testing his Pluto Plus on 902, 1296 and higher bands on a UWB dish with good results.  He has observed a filter is a must or the front end is overloaded with OOB signals.  I am sure there are plenty of original Pluto users out there but I have not seen much beyond European satellite setups.  For 10G I have a transverter, but I plan to try out passive doubler (2x5GHz) followed by filter and an amp on TX, and use a $10 low NF LNBF with an output around 500 or 600Mhz on RX for 10.3681Ghz.  Looking a SAW filter modules combined with wideband amp modules for a more compact solution.  On 5.7G and 10G I only use 90mW out for the last several years.

 

I am envisioning a compact solution fit behind the UWB dish located outdoors with only power and ethernet running out there.

 

Mike

K7MDL

 

From: herme...@googlegroups.com <herme...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of ron.ni...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 08:17
To: Hermes-Lite <herme...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Best SDR companion to HL2 for 2-meter band?

 

Has anyone here tried a LimeSDR, LimeSDR Mini, or ADALM Pluto for SDR stuff on 2m and/or 70cm?  How might operating one of those (plus an LNA+amplifier+filter) on 2M/70cm compare to using an HL2 (plus a transverter or two)?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/aeaa2931-572a-4e75-83c9-9cfb8c0cb433n%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark Wild]

Take a look at the Langston project for the Pluto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgAkcmd7ixA

[si...@sdr-radio.com]

Ron,

 

Pluto will offer more bandwidth, I expect HL2 + decent transverter (Q5 Signal) to have a better front end but haven’t tested this. Pluto will require either a replacement TXCO or external frequency reference.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: herme...@googlegroups.com <herme...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of ron.ni...@gmail.com
Sent: 24 August 2021 16:17
To: Hermes-Lite <herme...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Best SDR companion to HL2 for 2-meter band?

 

Has anyone here tried a LimeSDR, LimeSDR Mini, or ADALM Pluto for SDR stuff on 2m and/or 70cm?  How might operating one of those (plus an LNA+amplifier+filter) on 2M/70cm compare to using an HL2 (plus a transverter or two)?

Thanks,

Ron

n6ywu