Hermes Lite V2.0 proposal
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PA3GSB
Aug 5, 2015, 4:01:13 AM8/5/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hello All,
I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
My idea is to add the components of hermis lite to a pcb (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) which can be clicked to a rasperry pi.
-) no need for an ethernet component (no ethernet code required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr proposal protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less complex?)
-) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz; see wspr using a rpi)
-) loading fpga program controlled from pi no flash required?
The pi can react as an Hermes.
Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP code in the pi; together with a jetty local server the sdr can be reached from remote.
Iam interested in reactions.
73 Johan PA3GSB
Tony Abbey
Aug 5, 2015, 6:02:13 PM8/5/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Johan
Your ideas sound great. I have long been a fan of the R Pi, and helped contribute code to the RPi Wobbulator. Please keep us informed of any developments, or help required.
Tony
Glenn P
Aug 5, 2015, 11:29:32 PM8/5/15
to Hermes-Lite
I would like to see the removal of edge connectors CN2,3&4 to be replaced with dual row headers that can be bought at almost any electronics shop to connect to other boards, with ribbon cables.
In the USA it may well be easy to get edge connectors like those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK, that means buying from Digikey along with high freight charges. What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in Aus$ 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any possible Customs charges.
The Semtec connector is even worse. I know that you are commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV requires it, but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor I could find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55 freight! Thats now a $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its $95.70 !!
Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample failed, as is often the case when trying for samples of any part here. Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK builder. Thanks Jim.
In general V2 should try to use parts that are reasonably common in other countries. I know that's difficult at times.
Glenn
vk3pe
In the USA it may well be easy to get edge connectors like those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK, that means buying from Digikey along with high freight charges. What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in Aus$ 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any possible Customs charges.
The Semtec connector is even worse. I know that you are commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV requires it, but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor I could find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55 freight! Thats now a $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its $95.70 !!
Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample failed, as is often the case when trying for samples of any part here. Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK builder. Thanks Jim.
In general V2 should try to use parts that are reasonably common in other countries. I know that's difficult at times.
Glenn
vk3pe
Steve Haynal
Aug 6, 2015, 12:09:36 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Johan and Tony,
Thanks for sharing your interesting ideas. It would be great to see someone link up a Hermes-Lite like SDR to a single board computer like the Raspberry Pi. Here are some thoughts.
- How fast is the Raspberry Pi ethernet? I've seen numbers showing that the latest models can achieve a bit more than 200 Mbps and are limited by the USB interface to ethernet. In v2.0, I'd like to be able to send the full ADC spectrum to keep the door open for DFC use. This requires 73.728e6 * 12 bits = 885 Mbps + overhead at a minimum. This can barely fit into a true gigabit ethernet link which I would like to use.
- I like the option of connecting to a SBC without ethernet though. Leaving ethernet off if not needed can save some money. I like the approach taken by John Seamons where he uses a SPI interface at 48 Mbps to a Beagle Bone Black. You can fit several receivers into 48 Mbps and SPI is very simple. In version 2.0, I am thinking of setting aside 4 pins for such a SPI interface. Do you have another high speed interface in mind?
- In v2.0, I'd prefer to stay single board computer agnostic and don't want to make a Raspberry Pi or Beagle Bone Black specific cape. There are many good SBCs out there. This is another motivation for SPI.
- In full duplex, the AD9866 runs at 147.456 MHz. There is potential for signal integrity issues at this speed over the typical 0.1 inch headers seen on SBCs that I'd like to steer clear of.
- It is amazing what people have done with the Raspberry Pi. I am particularly impressed with WsprryPi. Does this use the same frequency generation engine/ideas as oscillator Pi? For high-speed ADC sampling systems, clock phase noise and jitter are important considerations. See this app note for details. What are the clock phase noise and jitter specs for oscillator Pi?
73,
Steve
KF7O
Steve Haynal
Aug 6, 2015, 12:14:09 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Glen,
I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too and use as standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use an onboard MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro. This eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC which must be good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have signal integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.
Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can price parts on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might have to pay?
73,
Steve
KF7O
Rob Frohne
Aug 6, 2015, 1:30:17 AM8/6/15
to herme...@googlegroups.com
Hi Steve, et. al.,
Rob
KL7NA
- The Odroid C1 has gigabit Ethernet, and the throughput is significantly better than the pi. There are some comparisons further down this page.
- There are some guys here programming fpgas from their raspberry pis. This could be done similarly on the Odroid C1.
- There are some 32 MHz SPI clock transfers going on mentioned here
with the Odroid C1. I don't know if you can go faster. The
Raspberry Pi seems to go quite a bit faster.
- The 40 pin connector for the odroid isn't quite the same as for the pi, but there are they are very similar. This seems to indicate that there are three pins that are not compatible (pins 38-40), and a quick glance looks like it is similar. If it is, you could make the board the right form, you could use it as a cape or not as you wanted, and it could be for the raspberry pi or other board with similar pinouts.
- One disadvantage to making a cape that the AD9866, oscillator, and FPGA sits on directly is that it would probably be a bit large, and so the four layer board would be more expensive, but there may be a way to span some of the pins and not all that would make a smaller board.
Rob
KL7NA
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Glenn P
Aug 6, 2015, 2:35:50 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Steve
I was mainly suggesting the use of low cost headers in the low speed or control etc portions of the V2.
here`in VK we have access to several Electronics retailers.
Farnell (now Element14)
RS- Components (not low qty friendly I find)
The above have the biggest range of parts, especially the harder to find IC's and SMD etc. They also charge shipping, although if over $45 with Farnell for example, shipping is free.
Invariably though, items like FPGA's are not carried by them.
www.altronics.com.au and www.Jaycar.com.au These are retail stores for hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar being the most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers but do stock some components although SMD is not something they offer to any degree.
There is also www.rockby.com.au who have a single store but do mail order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc. Unless they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty high shipping costs and are a last resort for parts. They do offer 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders but its difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing parts of a project.
Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying IC's as you will be aware.
glenn
vk3pe
I was mainly suggesting the use of low cost headers in the low speed or control etc portions of the V2.
here`in VK we have access to several Electronics retailers.
Farnell (now Element14)
RS- Components (not low qty friendly I find)
The above have the biggest range of parts, especially the harder to find IC's and SMD etc. They also charge shipping, although if over $45 with Farnell for example, shipping is free.
Invariably though, items like FPGA's are not carried by them.
www.altronics.com.au and www.Jaycar.com.au These are retail stores for hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar being the most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers but do stock some components although SMD is not something they offer to any degree.
There is also www.rockby.com.au who have a single store but do mail order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc. Unless they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty high shipping costs and are a last resort for parts. They do offer 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders but its difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing parts of a project.
Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying IC's as you will be aware.
glenn
vk3pe
Sid Boyce
Aug 6, 2015, 3:50:53 AM8/6/15
to herme...@googlegroups.com
The HiQSDR uses Micro-Match connectors which are much better than the
standard 0.1 inch type.
They are also available from Digikey and RS Components.
Maximum number of pins is 20 but multiples can be used if greater than
20 are required.
http://www.creative-robotics.com/cablecrimping
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 07:35, Glenn P wrote:
> Hi Steve
>
> I was mainly suggesting the use of low cost headers in the low speed
> or control etc portions of the V2.
>
> here`in VK we have access to several Electronics retailers.
>
> Farnell (now Element14)
> RS- Components (not low qty friendly I find)
>
> The above have the biggest range of parts, especially the harder to
> find IC's and SMD etc. They also charge shipping, although if over $45
> with Farnell for example, shipping is free.
> Invariably though, items like FPGA's are not carried by them.
>
> www.altronics.com.au and www.Jaycar.com.au These are retail stores for
> hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar being the
> most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers but do
> stock some components although SMD is not something they offer to any
> degree.
>
> There is also www.rockby.com.au who have a single store but do mail
> order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and
> also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page
> also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc. Unless
> they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer
> here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
>
> Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty
> high shipping costs and are a last resort for parts. They do offer
--
Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
standard 0.1 inch type.
They are also available from Digikey and RS Components.
Maximum number of pins is 20 but multiples can be used if greater than
20 are required.
http://www.creative-robotics.com/cablecrimping
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 07:35, Glenn P wrote:
> Hi Steve
>
> I was mainly suggesting the use of low cost headers in the low speed
> or control etc portions of the V2.
>
> here`in VK we have access to several Electronics retailers.
>
> Farnell (now Element14)
> RS- Components (not low qty friendly I find)
>
> The above have the biggest range of parts, especially the harder to
> find IC's and SMD etc. They also charge shipping, although if over $45
> with Farnell for example, shipping is free.
> Invariably though, items like FPGA's are not carried by them.
>
> www.altronics.com.au and www.Jaycar.com.au These are retail stores for
> hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar being the
> most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers but do
> stock some components although SMD is not something they offer to any
> degree.
>
> There is also www.rockby.com.au who have a single store but do mail
> order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and
> also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page
> also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc. Unless
> they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer
> here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
>
> Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty
> 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders but its
> difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing parts
> of a project.
>
> Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying IC's as you will
> difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing parts
> of a project.
>
> be aware.
>
> glenn
> vk3pe
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve Haynal wrote:
>
> Hi Glen,
>
> I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too and use as
> standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use an onboard
> MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro. This
> eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC which must be
> good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have signal
> integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
>
> glenn
> vk3pe
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve Haynal wrote:
>
> Hi Glen,
>
> I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too and use as
> standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use an onboard
> MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro. This
> eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC which must be
> good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have signal
>
> Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can price parts
> on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might have to pay?
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
> KF7O
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7, Glenn P wrote:
>
> I would like to see the removal of edge connectors CN2,3&4 to
> be replaced with dual row headers that can be bought at almost
> any electronics shop to connect to other boards, with ribbon
> cables.
>
> In the USA it may well be easy to get edge connectors like
> those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK, that
> means buying from Digikey along with high freight charges.
> What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in Aus$
> 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any possible
> Customs charges.
>
> The Semtec connector is even worse. I know that you are
> Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can price parts
> on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might have to pay?
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
> KF7O
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7, Glenn P wrote:
>
> I would like to see the removal of edge connectors CN2,3&4 to
> be replaced with dual row headers that can be bought at almost
> any electronics shop to connect to other boards, with ribbon
> cables.
>
> In the USA it may well be easy to get edge connectors like
> those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK, that
> means buying from Digikey along with high freight charges.
> What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in Aus$
> 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any possible
> Customs charges.
>
> commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV requires it,
> but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor I could
> find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55 freight! Thats now a
> but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor I could
> $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its $95.70 !!
>
> Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample failed, as is
> often the case when trying for samples of any part here.
> Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK builder.
> Thanks Jim.
>
> In general V2 should try to use parts that are reasonably
> common in other countries. I know that's difficult at times.
>
>
>
>
>
> Glenn
> vk3pe
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM UTC+10, PA3GSB wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
>
> I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
>
> My idea is to add the components of hermis lite to a pcb
> (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which can be clicked
>
> Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample failed, as is
> often the case when trying for samples of any part here.
> Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK builder.
> Thanks Jim.
>
> In general V2 should try to use parts that are reasonably
> common in other countries. I know that's difficult at times.
>
>
>
>
>
> Glenn
> vk3pe
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM UTC+10, PA3GSB wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
>
> I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
>
> My idea is to add the components of hermis lite to a pcb
> to a rasperry pi.
>
>
> -) no need for an ethernet component (no ethernet code
> required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr proposal
> protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less complex?)
> -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz; see wspr
> using a rpi)
> -) loading fpga program controlled from pi no flash
> required?Â
>
>
> -) no need for an ethernet component (no ethernet code
> required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr proposal
> protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less complex?)
> -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz; see wspr
> using a rpi)
> -) loading fpga program controlled from pi no flash
>
>
> The pi can react as an Hermes.
>
>
> Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP code in the pi;
> together with a jetty local server the sdr can be reached
> from remote.
>
>
> Iam interested in reactions.
>
> 73 Johan PA3GSB
>
>
> The pi can react as an Hermes.
>
>
> Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP code in the pi;
> together with a jetty local server the sdr can be reached
> from remote.
>
>
> Iam interested in reactions.
>
> 73 Johan PA3GSB
>
> --
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--
Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
Glenn P
Aug 6, 2015, 5:37:00 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite, boyc...@gmail.com
Hi Syd
they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from more specialist outlets like Farnell, Digikey etc is fine for those where freight costs are not an issue. Invariably, one ends up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it kills the experience.
I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of view, but even my local electronics store, (Jaycar) who caters primarily to electronic gadget customers, sells the cheaper 0.1" headers at low cost.
I have been involved in making PCB's for the PICASTAR transceiver in the past, and always tried to cater for a range of parts by using multiple footprints in some cases in the PCB design. It is appreciated by builders who have to source their own parts for a project all around the world, and not just buy a kit, where the problem does not arise.
glenn
vk3pe
they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from more specialist outlets like Farnell, Digikey etc is fine for those where freight costs are not an issue. Invariably, one ends up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it kills the experience.
I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of view, but even my local electronics store, (Jaycar) who caters primarily to electronic gadget customers, sells the cheaper 0.1" headers at low cost.
I have been involved in making PCB's for the PICASTAR transceiver in the past, and always tried to cater for a range of parts by using multiple footprints in some cases in the PCB design. It is appreciated by builders who have to source their own parts for a project all around the world, and not just buy a kit, where the problem does not arise.
glenn
vk3pe
> <mailto:hermes-lite+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.
Glenn P
Aug 6, 2015, 5:54:13 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
I see there is a BeMicro MAX10 eval kit also http://parts.arrow.com/item/detail/arrow-development-tools/bemicromax10#nMJ for US$30
Guess you saw this already,
Guess you saw this already,
On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve Haynal wrote:
Amogh Desai
Aug 6, 2015, 8:17:07 AM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite, boyc...@gmail.com
I agree with Glenn.
I am in India. I am planning to order the AD9866 and Samtec connector samples. Added rest of the BOM for both the boards to the digikey cart which comes to around $16.00. While the shipping cost is $40. More than twice the cost of parts. Besides a $49 Bemicro CV is also being charged shipping at $40.00.
So a Project that should cost me around $100 is actually costing twice it's price. Here in India we dont have much online options. RS components only offers bulk purchases at free shipping and digikey, farnell/element14 or other such sellers ask for a TIN number (registered company) and the shipping costs are quite high.
Steve, If I remember correctly, you sent out PCBs to some builders through normal post (i.e as a letter) to avoid shipping costs some time back. With the improvements currently this project is going through, I see that the FPGA (as an evel board) is not going to be used at all in the next version. If this is correct, will you be able to populate the PCB with the MAX10 part (and whatever is not available as a sample and is hard to obtain) and send out the PCBs to builder (like me) using the "normal post" option?? Paypal is a good way of payment. This will really help some guys who have shipping cost issues. Is that possible ?
In such a situation I'll wait for the v2 and rather not invest in a Bemicro which seems of no use to me besides this project alone. Hope my understanding is right.
Regards,
VU3DES
Sid Boyce
Aug 6, 2015, 11:05:12 AM8/6/15
to Glenn P, Hermes-Lite
Hi Glenn,
Similar situation applies to UK when ordering from Digikey, etc.
Ordering from Farnell UK when the parts are not stocked in the UK also
incurs huge shipping costs.
The Micro-Match connectors are available from RS Components Australia.
http://au.rs-online.com/web/c/?sra=oss&r=t&searchTerm=Micro-Match+connectors
I got mine from RS Components UK.
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 10:37, Glenn P wrote:
> Hi Syd
> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
> more specialist outlets like Farnell, Digikey etc is fine for those
> > www.altronics.com.au <http://www.altronics.com.au> and
> www.Jaycar.com.au <http://www.Jaycar.com.au> These are retail
> >
> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too and
> use as
> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use an
> onboard
> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro. This
> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC which
> must be
> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have signal
> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
> >
> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
> price parts
> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might have
> to pay?
> >
> > Â Â 73,
> >
> > Â Â Steve
> > Â Â KF7O
> >
> >
> > Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7, Glenn P
> wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge connectors
> CN2,3&4 to
> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be bought
> at almost
> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
> with ribbon
> > Â Â Â Â cables.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In the USA it may well be easy to get edge
> connectors like
> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK,
> that
> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high freight
> charges.
> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in
> Aus$
> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any
> possible
> > Â Â Â Â Customs charges.
> >
> >     The Semtec connector is even worse.  I know that
> you are
> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
> requires it,
> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor
> I could
> >     find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55 freight!Â
> Â Thats now a
> > Â Â Â Â $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its $95.70 !!
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
> failed, as is
> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any part
> here.
> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK
> builder.
> > Â Â Â Â Thanks Jim.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In general V2 should try to use parts that are
> reasonably
> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's difficult
> at times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Glenn
> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM UTC+10,
> PA3GSB wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
> lite to a pcb
> >       (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which can
> be clicked
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) no need for an ethernet component (no
> ethernet code
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr
> proposal
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
> complex?)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz;
> see wspr
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â using a rpi)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) loading fpga program controlled from pi no
> flash
> >       required?Â
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â The pi can react as an Hermes.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP code
> in the pi;
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr can
> be reached
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â from remote.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â 73 Johan PA3GSB
> > <mailto:hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>.
Similar situation applies to UK when ordering from Digikey, etc.
Ordering from Farnell UK when the parts are not stocked in the UK also
incurs huge shipping costs.
The Micro-Match connectors are available from RS Components Australia.
http://au.rs-online.com/web/c/?sra=oss&r=t&searchTerm=Micro-Match+connectors
I got mine from RS Components UK.
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 10:37, Glenn P wrote:
> Hi Syd
> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
> where freight costs are not an issue. Invariably, one ends up needing
> a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB and adding
> freight (most of these places do not offer low cost mail services,
> they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it kills the experience.
>
> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
> view, but even my local electronics store, (Jaycar) who caters
> a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB and adding
> freight (most of these places do not offer low cost mail services,
> they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it kills the experience.
>
> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
> primarily to electronic gadget customers, sells the cheaper 0.1"
> headers at low cost.
>
> I have been involved in making PCB's for the PICASTAR transceiver in
> headers at low cost.
>
> www.Jaycar.com.au <http://www.Jaycar.com.au> These are retail
> stores for
> > hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar
> being the
> > most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers
> but do
> > stock some components although SMD is not something they offer
> to any
> > degree.
> >
> > There is also www.rockby.com.au <http://www.rockby.com.au> who
> > hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar
> being the
> > most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget customers
> but do
> > stock some components although SMD is not something they offer
> to any
> > degree.
> >
> have a single store but do mail
> > order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and
> > also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page
> > also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc.
> Unless
> > they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer
> > here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
> >
> > Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty
> > high shipping costs and are  a last resort for parts. They
> > order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some SMD and
> > also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly specials page
> > also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers etc.
> Unless
> > they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a manufacturer
> > here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
> >
> > Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have pretty
> do offer
> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders but its
> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing
> parts
> > of a project.
> >
> > Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying  IC's as
> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders but its
> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few missing
> parts
> > of a project.
> >
> you will
> > be aware.
> >
> > glenn
> > vk3pe
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve Haynal
> wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Hi Glen,
> > be aware.
> >
> > glenn
> > vk3pe
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve Haynal
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too and
> use as
> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use an
> onboard
> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro. This
> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC which
> must be
> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have signal
> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
> >
> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
> price parts
> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might have
> to pay?
> >
> > Â Â 73,
> >
> > Â Â Steve
> > Â Â KF7O
> >
> >
> > Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7, Glenn P
> wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge connectors
> CN2,3&4 to
> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be bought
> at almost
> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
> with ribbon
> > Â Â Â Â cables.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In the USA it may well be easy to get edge
> connectors like
> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in VK,
> that
> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high freight
> charges.
> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32 and in
> Aus$
> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without any
> possible
> > Â Â Â Â Customs charges.
> >
> >     The Semtec connector is even worse.  I know that
> you are
> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
> requires it,
> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest vendor
> I could
> >     find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55 freight!Â
> Â Thats now a
> > Â Â Â Â $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its $95.70 !!
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
> failed, as is
> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any part
> here.
> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from a UK
> builder.
> > Â Â Â Â Thanks Jim.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In general V2 should try to use parts that are
> reasonably
> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's difficult
> at times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Glenn
> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM UTC+10,
> PA3GSB wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
> lite to a pcb
> >       (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which can
> be clicked
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) no need for an ethernet component (no
> ethernet code
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr
> proposal
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
> complex?)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz;
> see wspr
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â using a rpi)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) loading fpga program controlled from pi no
> flash
> >       required?Â
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â The pi can react as an Hermes.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP code
> in the pi;
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr can
> be reached
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â from remote.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â 73 Johan PA3GSB
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Hermes-Lite" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send
> > an email to hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Hermes-Lite" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send
> > <mailto:hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
Sid Boyce
Aug 6, 2015, 11:15:07 AM8/6/15
to Amogh Desai, Hermes-Lite
Starting from bare boards is costly outside of USA.
In addition to Steve's partial kits, perhaps someone in the USA could
volunteer to order the BeMicros pre-paid and ship via USPS.
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 13:17, Amogh Desai wrote:
> I agree with Glenn.
>
> I am in India. I am planning to order the AD9866 and Samtec connector
> samples. Â Added rest of the BOM for both the boards to the digikey
> cart which comes to around $16.00. Â While the shipping cost is $40.
> issues. Â Is that possible ?
> > www.altronics.com.au <http://www.altronics.com.au> and
> www.Jaycar.com.au <http://www.Jaycar.com.au> These are retail
> >
> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too
> and use as
> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use
> an onboard
> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro.
> This
> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC
> which must be
> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have
> signal
> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
> >
> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
> price parts
> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might
> have to pay?
> >
> Glenn P wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge
> connectors CN2,3&4 to
> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be
> bought at almost
> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
> with ribbon
> connectors like
> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in
> VK, that
> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high
> freight charges.
> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32
> and in Aus$
> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without
> any possible
> that you are
> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
> requires it,
> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest
> vendor I could
> $95.70 !!
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
> failed, as is
> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any
> part here.
> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from
> a UK builder.
> reasonably
> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's
> difficult at times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> lite.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
> lite to a pcb
> ethernet code
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest
> hpsdr proposal
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
> complex?)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to
> 250Mhz; see wspr
> no flash
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP
> code in the pi;
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr
> can be reached
In addition to Steve's partial kits, perhaps someone in the USA could
volunteer to order the BeMicros pre-paid and ship via USPS.
73 ... Sid.
On 06/08/15 13:17, Amogh Desai wrote:
> I agree with Glenn.
>
> I am in India. I am planning to order the AD9866 and Samtec connector
> cart which comes to around $16.00. Â While the shipping cost is $40.
> More than twice the cost of parts. Besides a $49 Bemicro CV is also
> being charged shipping at $40.00.
>
> So a Project that should cost me around $100 is actually costing twice
> it's price. Â Here in India we dont have much online options. RS
> being charged shipping at $40.00.
>
> So a Project that should cost me around $100 is actually costing twice
> components only offers bulk purchases at free shipping and digikey,
> farnell/element14 or other such sellers ask for a TIN number
> (registered company) and the shipping costs are quite high.
>
> Steve, If I remember correctly, you sent out PCBs to some builders
> through normal post (i.e as a letter) to avoid shipping costs some
> time back. Â With the improvements currently this project is going
> farnell/element14 or other such sellers ask for a TIN number
> (registered company) and the shipping costs are quite high.
>
> Steve, If I remember correctly, you sent out PCBs to some builders
> through normal post (i.e as a letter) to avoid shipping costs some
> through, I see that the FPGA (as an evel board) is not going to be
> used at all in the next version. If this is correct, will you be able
> to populate the PCB with the MAX10 part (and whatever is not available
> as a sample and is hard to obtain) and send out the PCBs to builder
> (like me) using the "normal post" option?? Paypal is a good way of
> payment. Â This will really help some guys who have shipping cost
> used at all in the next version. If this is correct, will you be able
> to populate the PCB with the MAX10 part (and whatever is not available
> as a sample and is hard to obtain) and send out the PCBs to builder
> (like me) using the "normal post" option?? Paypal is a good way of
> issues. Â Is that possible ?
>
> In such a situation I'll wait for the v2 and rather not invest in a
> Bemicro which seems of no use to me besides this project alone. Â Hope
> In such a situation I'll wait for the v2 and rather not invest in a
> my understanding is right.
>
> Regards,
> VU3DES
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:07:00 PM UTC+5:30, Glenn P wrote:
>
> Hi Syd
> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
> more specialist outlets like Farnell, Digikey etc is fine for
>
> Regards,
> VU3DES
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:07:00 PM UTC+5:30, Glenn P wrote:
>
> Hi Syd
> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
> those where freight costs are not an issue. Invariably, one ends
> up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB
> and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost
> mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it
> kills the experience.
>
> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
> view, but even my local electronics store, (Jaycar) who caters
> up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB
> and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost
> mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it
> kills the experience.
>
> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
> primarily to electronic gadget customers, sells the cheaper 0.1"
> headers at low cost.
>
> I have been involved in making PCB's for the PICASTAR
> headers at low cost.
>
> www.Jaycar.com.au <http://www.Jaycar.com.au> These are retail
> stores for
> > hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar
> being the
> > most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget
> customers but do
> > stock some components although SMD is not something they
> offer to any
> > degree.
> >
> > There is also www.rockby.com.au <http://www.rockby.com.au>
> > hobbyists and have outlets in most states of VK with Jaycar
> being the
> > most common. They cater mainly for electronic gadget
> customers but do
> > stock some components although SMD is not something they
> offer to any
> > degree.
> >
> who have a single store but do mail
> > order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some
> SMD and
> > also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly
> specials page
> > also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers
> etc. Unless
> > they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a
> manufacturer
> > here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
> >
> > Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have
> pretty
> > order and carry a fairly good range of parts including some
> SMD and
> > also have a disposals section. They put out a weekly
> specials page
> > also. They don't have items like FPGA's, Micro controllers
> etc. Unless
> > they happened to buy up a job lot or end of run from a
> manufacturer
> > here. But these tend to be older, probably obsolete parts
> >
> > Our only other source is Digikey and Mouser in USA who have
> pretty
> > high shipping costs and are  a last resort for parts.Â
> They do offer
> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders
> but its
> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few
> missing parts
> > of a project.
> >
> > Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying  IC's
> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders
> but its
> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few
> missing parts
> > of a project.
> >
> as you will
> > be aware.
> >
> > glenn
> > vk3pe
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve
> Haynal wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Hi Glen,
> > be aware.
> >
> > glenn
> > vk3pe
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve
> Haynal wrote:
> >
> >
> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too
> and use as
> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use
> an onboard
> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro.
> This
> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC
> which must be
> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have
> signal
> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
> >
> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
> price parts
> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might
> have to pay?
> >
> > Â Â 73,
> >
> > Â Â Steve
> > Â Â KF7O
> >
> >
> > Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7,
> >
> > Â Â Steve
> > Â Â KF7O
> >
> >
> Glenn P wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge
> connectors CN2,3&4 to
> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be
> bought at almost
> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
> with ribbon
> > Â Â Â Â cables.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In the USA it may well be easy to get edge
> >
> connectors like
> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in
> VK, that
> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high
> freight charges.
> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32
> and in Aus$
> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without
> any possible
> > Â Â Â Â Customs charges.
> >
> >     The Semtec connector is even worse.  I know
> >
> that you are
> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
> requires it,
> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest
> vendor I could
> > Â Â Â Â find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55
> freight!  Thats now a
> > Â Â Â Â $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its
> freight!  Thats now a
> $95.70 !!
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
> failed, as is
> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any
> part here.
> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from
> a UK builder.
> > Â Â Â Â Thanks Jim.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â In general V2 should try to use parts that are
> >
> reasonably
> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's
> difficult at times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Glenn
> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM
> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
> >
> >
> UTC+10, PA3GSB wrote:
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
> >
> >
> lite.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
> lite to a pcb
> >       (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which
> can be clicked
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) no need for an ethernet component (no
> can be clicked
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
> >
> >
> ethernet code
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest
> hpsdr proposal
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
> complex?)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to
> 250Mhz; see wspr
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â using a rpi)
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) loading fpga program controlled from pi
> no flash
> >       required?Â
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â The pi can react as an Hermes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP
> code in the pi;
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr
> can be reached
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â from remote.
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â 73 Johan PA3GSB
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "Hermes-Lite" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from it, send
> > an email to hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com>.
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> > Groups "Hermes-Lite" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from it, send
> > an email to hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
John Laur
Aug 6, 2015, 2:57:57 PM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Tying the Hermes-Lite design to a flavor-of-the-month SBC is not a
good idea in my opinion.
Despite it's overwhelming popularity and very vocal supporters, the
Raspberry Pi is a board made with an incredible number of compromises
in order to keep costs low. For SDR applications the most important
problems are a poor LO, a USB-based Ethernet interface that takes a
toll on CPU, and poor local audio (including no input).
Saving a few dollars in BOM costs to remove a PHY and magjack only to
replace it with a $35 SBC is silly. Not to mention that "removing the
ethernet" actually involves:
1) Developing a non-ethernet protocol (in verilog) for use on one of
the RPi interfaces exposed via the pin header or the camera interface
2) Developing a kernel level interface to talk to this
3) Developing software to translate to another protocol that existing
software can use
It seems to me that the supporters of this idea would enjoy the end
result more than the development effort that goes into it. There is
after all nothing stopping anyone from hooking an AD9866 to the RPi
today except for the fact that the usual requestor wants someone else
to do it.
The costs of acquring a SamTec connector outside of the USA are a
separate debate. The eventuality is that if Hermes-Lite is ever mass
produced, it will be far less expensive to have a large quantity
machine assembled, and the availability of a connector will be a
non-issue. The only decision to make is: "Is the connector plus a
BeMicro board cheaper than onboarding the FPGA and supporting
circuitry?" If we want a Cyclone V A9 with 301,000 LE's the answer is
clearly yes, it is cheaper. If a Max10 is fine for the design the
answer is no. Right now, there is no other choice because there are no
other inexpensive FPGA development boards with connectors that can
handle a 145MHz clock.
Here's a plan that might make everybody happy:
1) Get the existing hardware running w/ BeMicro CVA9 to qualify Gig-E
and the BeMicro Max10 to qualify that it will indeed be a sufficient
part.
2) Integrate the existing work to make a single board solution including:
Max10 FPGA, If BGA saves lots of costs then consider it.
Gig-E
Single 12-13.8V supply
DAC reconstruction LPF
50 Ohm Rx/TX interfaces
Bank of protected pins or footprints for: J16 filter switching,
perhaps with more IO than Hermes J16, CW, ADC
Good ideas for optional population might include:
Onboard TR relay
10MHz clock input
3) The board should also include a footprint for a dual row of header
pins (40 pin) connected only to the Max10, and try to be somewhat
electrically compatible with the DIP headers on:
BeMicro CV, CVA9, and Max10
DE0-Nano-SoC
RaspberryPi 2
Beaglebone Black
The board can then act as a standalone transceiver, or the Max10 can
run glue to translate or decimate the AD9866 interface to work over a
slower interface or simply provide serial<->parallel conversion. It
would be no problem to get the datarate we require over the headers
using a parallel differential (or even SE) interface. Then the thing
could be plugged into a larger board for enhanced functionality by the
simple addition of a header.
This does leave such an interface as "further work for the builder"
but it doesnt leave anything that has been discussed totally out in
the cold either.
73, John K5IT
> email to hermes-lite...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
good idea in my opinion.
Despite it's overwhelming popularity and very vocal supporters, the
Raspberry Pi is a board made with an incredible number of compromises
in order to keep costs low. For SDR applications the most important
problems are a poor LO, a USB-based Ethernet interface that takes a
toll on CPU, and poor local audio (including no input).
Saving a few dollars in BOM costs to remove a PHY and magjack only to
replace it with a $35 SBC is silly. Not to mention that "removing the
ethernet" actually involves:
1) Developing a non-ethernet protocol (in verilog) for use on one of
the RPi interfaces exposed via the pin header or the camera interface
2) Developing a kernel level interface to talk to this
3) Developing software to translate to another protocol that existing
software can use
It seems to me that the supporters of this idea would enjoy the end
result more than the development effort that goes into it. There is
after all nothing stopping anyone from hooking an AD9866 to the RPi
today except for the fact that the usual requestor wants someone else
to do it.
The costs of acquring a SamTec connector outside of the USA are a
separate debate. The eventuality is that if Hermes-Lite is ever mass
produced, it will be far less expensive to have a large quantity
machine assembled, and the availability of a connector will be a
non-issue. The only decision to make is: "Is the connector plus a
BeMicro board cheaper than onboarding the FPGA and supporting
circuitry?" If we want a Cyclone V A9 with 301,000 LE's the answer is
clearly yes, it is cheaper. If a Max10 is fine for the design the
answer is no. Right now, there is no other choice because there are no
other inexpensive FPGA development boards with connectors that can
handle a 145MHz clock.
Here's a plan that might make everybody happy:
1) Get the existing hardware running w/ BeMicro CVA9 to qualify Gig-E
and the BeMicro Max10 to qualify that it will indeed be a sufficient
part.
2) Integrate the existing work to make a single board solution including:
Max10 FPGA, If BGA saves lots of costs then consider it.
Gig-E
Single 12-13.8V supply
DAC reconstruction LPF
50 Ohm Rx/TX interfaces
Bank of protected pins or footprints for: J16 filter switching,
perhaps with more IO than Hermes J16, CW, ADC
Good ideas for optional population might include:
Onboard TR relay
10MHz clock input
3) The board should also include a footprint for a dual row of header
pins (40 pin) connected only to the Max10, and try to be somewhat
electrically compatible with the DIP headers on:
BeMicro CV, CVA9, and Max10
DE0-Nano-SoC
RaspberryPi 2
Beaglebone Black
The board can then act as a standalone transceiver, or the Max10 can
run glue to translate or decimate the AD9866 interface to work over a
slower interface or simply provide serial<->parallel conversion. It
would be no problem to get the datarate we require over the headers
using a parallel differential (or even SE) interface. Then the thing
could be plugged into a larger board for enhanced functionality by the
simple addition of a header.
This does leave such an interface as "further work for the builder"
but it doesnt leave anything that has been discussed totally out in
the cold either.
73, John K5IT
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
James Ahlstrom
Aug 6, 2015, 6:17:29 PM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
I am in complete agreement with John here, and I find his design a good one. But first I want to talk about parts.
I occasionally (ahem) forget to order a part for a project, and so I need to order my $2 part plus $10 shipping from Mouser/Digikey and wait a week. I live in the US. The idea that for someone in India or New Zealand this is $100 and weeks of wait is painful to contemplate. The specialty connectors have to go. The high speed parts are Ethernet or USB, the FPGA, the crystal oscillator and the AD9866. If these are all on the main board, there is only low speed communication off the board. A common ribbon cable connection works well if differential signals are used. It also works well if every other ribbon wire is ground. Suppose someone wants to connect the Hermes-Lite board to a single board computer (SBC), and also to a filter bank board all in the same box. They can use Ethernet/USB to connect to the SBC, either by using an actual connector and cable, or by using a header and a cable. The low speed filter bank connection can be almost anything. Although I allowed for Ethernet or USB, I am on record as loving Ethernet and hating USB.
My hardware design appeared in QEX in Jan/Feb 2011. The publication delay is 12 months, so the design is from 2009. I want to share some things I have learned.
Some people are using an SBC with Quisk. But the only thing that never changes with an SBC is that they always change. If someone comes out with a BlueberryPi tomorrow, that thundering sound you will hear is everyone rushing to use it. The idea that there exists a "standard" pinout for an SBC is futile. Even the voltage "standards" for data connections are 5.0, 3.3, 2.5 1.8 and 1.2 volts.
I understand the desire to use the most powerful FPGA and Gig Ethernet. But my hardware uses 100 meg Ethernet and a low end Cyclone 3 FPGA. It achieves an Rx sample rate of 960 ksps while running full duplex. There is room to compromise here if we want. I would vote against a BGA package, as I think it will intimidate people, including me.
The power can be a problem. My Hermes-Lite draws 0.43 amps for the 5.0 and 3.3 volt rails. There is no use yet for 13.6V. My hardware draws almost one amp. To reduce power to the box, I put 5.0, 3.3 and 1.2 volt linear regulators in a separate box, and powered these from a 6.5 volt switching regulator from 13.6V. Maybe overkill, but too much heat makes crystals drift. I would like to eliminate the 12V to the Hermes-Lite board, and power it from either a quiet 5.0 volt supply, or from an on-board LDO linear regulator from a 6V and up supply. The 5.0 to 3.3V is on-board with another linear regulator. The DPAK packages work well. There are many new switching regulators coming out that claim low noise, but I haven't used them on-board.
The DAC reconstruction LPF is not optional. It must be on the Hermes-Lite board, or someone will run without one. I started work on this, but found it a bit tricky. Just relying on the transmit LPF is not an option.
The modern TCXO parts are so good I think they make a 10 MHz input debatable. But they aren't available in just any frequency. I am not sure what to do about this. But a 10 MHz input requires a local PLL in order to be useful. A PLL based on an FPGA has a reputation of being noisy.
The Hermes-Lite is trying to hit a low price and complexity point. So in general I would leave out as much as possible.
Jim
N2ADR
ZL2APV
Aug 6, 2015, 7:29:42 PM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi John,
You are making pretty good sense. I also tend to favour a stand alone board bearing in mind we still need to keep it simple rather than fill it with so many features that suddenly we have duplicated a Hermes at similar cost but I am sure that is not on your agenda.
I have a BEMicro SDK which would become redundant if this approach is followed and I would just have to swallow the cost and chalk it up to developing knowledge. Who knows I may even use it for its original purpose as a learning/development tool.
However the board turns out, it will need to cater for 2 main types of software where one type does all the processing on its host computer and talks IQ via ethernet or maybe USB3 and the other type has a computer running a dsp server with a Hermes lite server an ethernet/udp connection to the radio software on another or localhost computer carrying spectrum and audio and commands in their own threads. Quisk and ghpsdr3 are two examples of this.
Radio hardware development needs to occur alongside this and the allusion to "Bank of protected pins or footprints for: J16 filter switching, perhaps with more IO than Hermes J16, CW, ADC " means we should consider some of the following ...
RF input for pre-emphasis of TX signal.
Reverse swr for ALC or maybe that should be external say with a PIN diode Attenuator
Control from a button on the radio. (switching antennas, activate tuner, switch linear on/off etc.)
It is easy to think of many things one could add to the system but maybe the best solution is to build a remote control box for much of this and run it in a separate window. I guess we need to decide exactly how far to go and get a roadmap set up. One of the important things is documentation which largely seems to be dumped on Steve's doorstep. I know the guy who understands it is the best to get it going but maybe we can do better than sit on our hands.
73, Graeme ZL2APV
You are making pretty good sense. I also tend to favour a stand alone board bearing in mind we still need to keep it simple rather than fill it with so many features that suddenly we have duplicated a Hermes at similar cost but I am sure that is not on your agenda.
I have a BEMicro SDK which would become redundant if this approach is followed and I would just have to swallow the cost and chalk it up to developing knowledge. Who knows I may even use it for its original purpose as a learning/development tool.
However the board turns out, it will need to cater for 2 main types of software where one type does all the processing on its host computer and talks IQ via ethernet or maybe USB3 and the other type has a computer running a dsp server with a Hermes lite server an ethernet/udp connection to the radio software on another or localhost computer carrying spectrum and audio and commands in their own threads. Quisk and ghpsdr3 are two examples of this.
Radio hardware development needs to occur alongside this and the allusion to "Bank of protected pins or footprints for: J16 filter switching, perhaps with more IO than Hermes J16, CW, ADC " means we should consider some of the following ...
RF input for pre-emphasis of TX signal.
Reverse swr for ALC or maybe that should be external say with a PIN diode Attenuator
Control from a button on the radio. (switching antennas, activate tuner, switch linear on/off etc.)
It is easy to think of many things one could add to the system but maybe the best solution is to build a remote control box for much of this and run it in a separate window. I guess we need to decide exactly how far to go and get a roadmap set up. One of the important things is documentation which largely seems to be dumped on Steve's doorstep. I know the guy who understands it is the best to get it going but maybe we can do better than sit on our hands.
73, Graeme ZL2APV
>> > <mailto:hermes-lite+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.
John Laur
Aug 6, 2015, 7:32:20 PM8/6/15
to Hermes-Lite
Quick notes:
For 10mhz input I was basically just thinking a footprint for an SMA
and schmitt trigger (and various passives) to drive an FPGA pin from
a 10mhz input. The purpose is optional components cost $0 apart from
the PCB area and provide additional functionality. It's not so much
about worrying about the LO accuracy as it is that a platform for
experimenting with Hermes Lite as test equipment being able to
discipline to another piece of gear is very nice. Also the transverter
or FMT guys will enjoy it. 10MHz input cant really go off-board, but
it doesnt have to be standard. All other HPSDR hardware uses this
approach with an internal PLL and it performs well. I think FPGA PLLs
are a lot better than they used to be.
The reason to use Gig-E is because the cost is about the same and it
uses the same PHY as everything else in the HPSDR project so there is
more code reuse. It's not because gig-e is an absolute necessity. But
it is indeed necessary for DFT and other very wideband applications
that are being looked at right now in other areas. It boils down to
it's easier to use it than not.
My assumptions about parts and availability for this rev were that it
should be designed assuming full assembly (or smt preassembly) I like
to hand-build things where I can, but the design should not be
compromised solely on the basis that people in far flung areas of the
world be able to hand build it. Nobody complains that they cant buy a
Raspberry Pi as a kit. If BGA can save $10 (because of part cost,
assembly/setup cost, or saved board space) then BGA should be on the
table. The original HPSDR hardware was designed with this constraint,
and many have lamented it. With these kinds of chips it's not a
question of "if" but "when" so might as well jump in with both feet
now if it saves some money.
Everything else; yes; totally agree.
73, John K5IT
For 10mhz input I was basically just thinking a footprint for an SMA
and schmitt trigger (and various passives) to drive an FPGA pin from
a 10mhz input. The purpose is optional components cost $0 apart from
the PCB area and provide additional functionality. It's not so much
about worrying about the LO accuracy as it is that a platform for
experimenting with Hermes Lite as test equipment being able to
discipline to another piece of gear is very nice. Also the transverter
or FMT guys will enjoy it. 10MHz input cant really go off-board, but
it doesnt have to be standard. All other HPSDR hardware uses this
approach with an internal PLL and it performs well. I think FPGA PLLs
are a lot better than they used to be.
The reason to use Gig-E is because the cost is about the same and it
uses the same PHY as everything else in the HPSDR project so there is
more code reuse. It's not because gig-e is an absolute necessity. But
it is indeed necessary for DFT and other very wideband applications
that are being looked at right now in other areas. It boils down to
it's easier to use it than not.
My assumptions about parts and availability for this rev were that it
should be designed assuming full assembly (or smt preassembly) I like
to hand-build things where I can, but the design should not be
compromised solely on the basis that people in far flung areas of the
world be able to hand build it. Nobody complains that they cant buy a
Raspberry Pi as a kit. If BGA can save $10 (because of part cost,
assembly/setup cost, or saved board space) then BGA should be on the
table. The original HPSDR hardware was designed with this constraint,
and many have lamented it. With these kinds of chips it's not a
question of "if" but "when" so might as well jump in with both feet
now if it saves some money.
Everything else; yes; totally agree.
73, John K5IT
Rob Frohne
Aug 7, 2015, 1:11:19 AM8/7/15
to herme...@googlegroups.com
Hi All,
After reading comments and thinking about it, I concur that making a
hermes-lite that is too tied to a single board computer is not a good
idea, though it is interesting. Single board computers tend to be less
reliable than regular commercial ones. These single board computers go
obsolete very quickly, and there are no real standards that make the
next ones compatible. Even an SPI interface would probably not work on
a large selections of SBCs, as the speeds aren't the same, etc.
Ethernet and USB are much more standard and we should probably stick to
those, with Ethernet being better in my opinion.
73,
Rob
KL7NA
After reading comments and thinking about it, I concur that making a
hermes-lite that is too tied to a single board computer is not a good
idea, though it is interesting. Single board computers tend to be less
reliable than regular commercial ones. These single board computers go
obsolete very quickly, and there are no real standards that make the
next ones compatible. Even an SPI interface would probably not work on
a large selections of SBCs, as the speeds aren't the same, etc.
Ethernet and USB are much more standard and we should probably stick to
those, with Ethernet being better in my opinion.
73,
Rob
KL7NA
Steve Haynal
Aug 7, 2015, 2:57:45 AM8/7/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hello Everyone,
Thanks for your candor. I will be frank as well.
I have already architected version 2.0 down to the size of the board, most parts, and have several pages of notes. It is based on ideas from this list over the past 12 months as well as my own experiences and ideas. So, thank you everyone for your contributions! I apologize for not documenting and sharing (been doing actual work...) but if you read this entire discussion group, you'll get a good sense of what it will be. I believe it keeps things simple and is inline with much of the discussion in this thread. I will try my best to prepare a design document this weekend to share for feedback. I suggest we table discussion until that is posted.
There is room for some tweaking, but I don't expect to make any major changes unless some brilliant idea comes up or there is a very convincing objection. Some may call this closed-minded, but I believe it is the focus, tenacity and determination required to get a project like this done in an open source environment where there are 101+ different opinions but only a few volunteers doing real work. It is what has gotten the project this far. Take a look at other successful open source projects and you will see gatekeepers with trusted lieutenants (Linus with Linux), not democracies.
I am looking for good help. (There is also bad "help" which I avoid.) When PA3GSB started this thread, I found via Google that he has designed his own DDC/DUC transceiver: http://www.pa3gsb.nl/journal.php#11 There are only a handful of people with those credentials and I am excited that he may turn out to be a contributor to Hermes-Lite. Tony is also a contributor to another project. Although we may not share the same vision about capes and single board computers, we may find some common ground (SPI interface, USB, Ethernet) that we both like. I would be very happy to have someone take on interfacing the Hermes-Lite to a single board computer, especially if they are a self-starter and can do a complete (firmware, RTL, software, layout, documentation) and largely independent job. So, Johann and Tony, if you are still following this thread, lets talk!
Some specific comments -- BGA often requires a board with more than 4 layers. LQFP is not that much more for the MAX 10 (<$5), allows for a 4 layer board, and allows for hobbyist assembly which is very important to me. SPI is a viable and simple option. There are already two SPI interfaces in the Hermes-Lite. They are easy to write in RTL. You can find good software and OS support. Changing the clock frequency is trivial. JKS has shown that it works for SDR. SPI is not something that is high priority to me, but is a great low cost standard interface.
73,
Steve
KF7O
PA3GSB
Aug 7, 2015, 9:08:54 AM8/7/15
to Hermes-Lite
Steve et all,
Everyone thanks for all the replies. I have read all the comments; and the related links.
Steve thanks for your reply to keep the door to a SBC open; iam willing to start some development; of course iam looking forward to your ideas; maybe its better to follow that thread but for now i still want to continue....
I defined a name for the setup: Radioberry
Main purpose of the sub-project:
- ham radio for everyone
- learning; from noob to guru
Radioberry build up by:
- Raspberry PI
- Radio extension board (cape)
Multiple configurations:
-) Config A
PC powersdr discovers Radioberry which implements hpsdr protocol
-) Config B
Browser connects via html to Radioberry which implements webserver including dsp and radio control
STARTING
First Config A
Task 1
RPI implements HPSDR protocol (handle discovery; control and data messages)
First starting with simulating the data.
Using JAVA for implementation!!!
Task 2
Learning RPI IO ports/levels and so on...
Task 3
Hardware design of expansion board (using a separate clock and flash memmory chip; open to use the RPI)
Selecting components:
FPGA Is cyclone II possible?
SMA versus BNC
use 0.1 inch connecting.
External IO for controlling relais and so on...
Using KICAD or EAGLE.
Task 4
verilog code (RTL)
Task <n>
.....
Iam a noob regarding the raspberry pi ; so i have to learn a lot as well. I will just start and i will inform the group about my progress. If there are volunteers please let me know we can help each other in the development process.
Keep you informed.
73 Johan PA3GSB
Sid Boyce
Aug 7, 2015, 3:14:27 PM8/7/15
to herme...@googlegroups.com
I can see benefit in using a NVidia Jetson TK1 or the 64-bit Tegra X1 TV
box to provide a small form factor "PC" running John Melton's OS cross
platform openHPSDRJ built with WDSP and especially with DFC support
being the goal.
I use a Pi model B with a 7" touchscreen in my standalone HiQSDR but
found it has limited USB handling capability. With a powered USB hub it
froze when I plugged in an outboard USB sound card but works with a USB
sound dongle.
I now have a Pi 2 to replace the earlier model B in the HiQSDR but in
the context of Hermes-Lite's requirements, it's not suitable. For a
start the 100MBps Ethernet is not up to the job.
73 ... Sid.
>>> samples. Â Added rest of the BOM for both the boards to the digikey cart
>>> which comes to around $16.00. Â While the shipping cost is $40. More than
>>> cost issues. Â Is that possible ?
>>> > high shipping costs and are  a last resort for parts.Â
>>> >
>>> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too
>>> and use as
>>> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use
>>> an onboard
>>> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro.
>>> This
>>> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC
>>> which must be
>>> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have
>>> signal
>>> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
>>> price parts
>>> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might
>>> have to pay?
>>> >
>>> > Â Â 73,
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Steve
>>> > Â Â KF7O
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7,
>>> Glenn P wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge
>>> connectors CN2,3&4 to
>>> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be
>>> bought at almost
>>> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
>>> with ribbon
>>> > Â Â Â Â cables.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â In the USA it may well be easy to get edge
>>> connectors like
>>> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in
>>> VK, that
>>> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high
>>> freight charges.
>>> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32
>>> and in Aus$
>>> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without
>>> any possible
>>> > Â Â Â Â Customs charges.
>>> >
>>> >     The Semtec connector is even worse.  I know
>>> that you are
>>> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
>>> requires it,
>>> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest
>>> vendor I could
>>> > Â Â Â Â find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55
>>> freight!  Thats now a
>>> > Â Â Â Â $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its
>>> $95.70 !!
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
>>> failed, as is
>>> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any
>>> part here.
>>> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from
>>> a UK builder.
>>> > Â Â Â Â Thanks Jim.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â In general V2 should try to use parts that are
>>> reasonably
>>> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's
>>> difficult at times.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Glenn
>>> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM
>>> UTC+10, PA3GSB wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes
>>> lite.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
>>> lite to a pcb
>>> >       (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which
>>> can be clicked
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) no need for an ethernet component (no
>>> ethernet code
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest
>>> hpsdr proposal
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
>>> complex?)
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to
>>> 250Mhz; see wspr
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â using a rpi)
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) loading fpga program controlled from pi
>>> no flash
>>> >       required?Â
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â The pi can react as an Hermes.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP
>>> code in the pi;
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr
>>> can be reached
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â from remote.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â 73 Johan PA3GSB
box to provide a small form factor "PC" running John Melton's OS cross
platform openHPSDRJ built with WDSP and especially with DFC support
being the goal.
I use a Pi model B with a 7" touchscreen in my standalone HiQSDR but
found it has limited USB handling capability. With a powered USB hub it
froze when I plugged in an outboard USB sound card but works with a USB
sound dongle.
I now have a Pi 2 to replace the earlier model B in the HiQSDR but in
the context of Hermes-Lite's requirements, it's not suitable. For a
start the 100MBps Ethernet is not up to the job.
73 ... Sid.
>>> which comes to around $16.00. Â While the shipping cost is $40. More than
>>> twice the cost of parts. Besides a $49 Bemicro CV is also being charged
>>> shipping at $40.00.
>>>
>>> So a Project that should cost me around $100 is actually costing twice
>>> it's price. Â Here in India we dont have much online options. RS components
>>> shipping at $40.00.
>>>
>>> So a Project that should cost me around $100 is actually costing twice
>>> only offers bulk purchases at free shipping and digikey, farnell/element14
>>> or other such sellers ask for a TIN number (registered company) and the
>>> shipping costs are quite high.
>>>
>>> Steve, If I remember correctly, you sent out PCBs to some builders through
>>> normal post (i.e as a letter) to avoid shipping costs some time back. Â With
>>> or other such sellers ask for a TIN number (registered company) and the
>>> shipping costs are quite high.
>>>
>>> Steve, If I remember correctly, you sent out PCBs to some builders through
>>> the improvements currently this project is going through, I see that the
>>> FPGA (as an evel board) is not going to be used at all in the next version.
>>> If this is correct, will you be able to populate the PCB with the MAX10 part
>>> (and whatever is not available as a sample and is hard to obtain) and send
>>> out the PCBs to builder (like me) using the "normal post" option?? Paypal is
>>> a good way of payment. Â This will really help some guys who have shipping
>>> FPGA (as an evel board) is not going to be used at all in the next version.
>>> If this is correct, will you be able to populate the PCB with the MAX10 part
>>> (and whatever is not available as a sample and is hard to obtain) and send
>>> out the PCBs to builder (like me) using the "normal post" option?? Paypal is
>>> cost issues. Â Is that possible ?
>>>
>>> In such a situation I'll wait for the v2 and rather not invest in a
>>> Bemicro which seems of no use to me besides this project alone. Â Hope my
>>> In such a situation I'll wait for the v2 and rather not invest in a
>>> understanding is right.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> VU3DES
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:07:00 PM UTC+5:30, Glenn P wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Syd
>>> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
>>> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
>>> more specialist outlets like Farnell, Digikey etc is fine for
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> VU3DES
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:07:00 PM UTC+5:30, Glenn P wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Syd
>>> they may well be 'better' but my point is to use parts that are
>>> obtainable relatively easily in most countries. Having to buy from
>>> those where freight costs are not an issue. Invariably, one ends
>>> up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB
>>> and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost
>>> mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it
>>> kills the experience.
>>>
>>> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
>>> view, but even my local electronics store, (Jaycar) who caters
>>> up needing a few (forgotten perhaps) small parts to complete a PCB
>>> and adding freight (most of these places do not offer low cost
>>> mail services, they only use Fedex, DHL etc) and for one part, it
>>> kills the experience.
>>>
>>> I don't know about other countries so I speak from a VK point of
>>> primarily to electronic gadget customers, sells the cheaper 0.1"
>>> headers at low cost.
>>>
>>> I have been involved in making PCB's for the PICASTAR
>>> headers at low cost.
>>>
>>> They do offer
>>> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders
>>> but its
>>> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few
>>> missing parts
>>> > of a project.
>>> >
>>> > Of course there is eBay but there is a risk buying  IC's
>>> > 'free' shipping for high value (typically over $200) orders
>>> but its
>>> > difficult to justify spending that much for just a few
>>> missing parts
>>> > of a project.
>>> >
>>> as you will
>>> > be aware.
>>> >
>>> > glenn
>>> > vk3pe
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve
>>> Haynal wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Hi Glen,
>>> > be aware.
>>> >
>>> > glenn
>>> > vk3pe
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:14:09 PM UTC+10, Steve
>>> Haynal wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â I'd like to get rid of these connectors in v2.0 too
>>> and use as
>>> > Â Â standard as possible connectors. Version 2.0 will use
>>> an onboard
>>> > Â Â MAX10 part (available from Digikey) and not a BeMicro.
>>> This
>>> > Â Â eliminates the connector between the FPGA and ADC
>>> which must be
>>> > Â Â good at high speeds. Typical dual row headers may have
>>> signal
>>> >   integrity issues at the speeds we need to run.Â
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Are there some internet sites you recommend that I can
>>> price parts
>>> > Â Â on to see what someone in Australia or Europe might
>>> have to pay?
>>> >
>>> > Â Â 73,
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Steve
>>> > Â Â KF7O
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-7,
>>> Glenn P wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â I would like to see the removal of edge
>>> connectors CN2,3&4 to
>>> > Â Â Â Â be replaced with dual row headers that can be
>>> bought at almost
>>> > Â Â Â Â any electronics shop to connect to other boards,
>>> with ribbon
>>> > Â Â Â Â cables.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â In the USA it may well be easy to get edge
>>> connectors like
>>> > Â Â Â Â those specified for CN4 for example, but here in
>>> VK, that
>>> > Â Â Â Â means buying from Digikey along with high
>>> freight charges.
>>> > Â Â Â Â What might be a $2 item ends up costing US$32
>>> and in Aus$
>>> > Â Â Â Â 45.00 due to exchange rates. And that's without
>>> any possible
>>> > Â Â Â Â Customs charges.
>>> >
>>> >     The Semtec connector is even worse.  I know
>>> that you are
>>> > Â Â Â Â commited to use that part since the BeMicro CV
>>> requires it,
>>> > Â Â Â Â but to give you another example, the cheapest
>>> vendor I could
>>> > Â Â Â Â find (USA again) was about $12 plus $55
>>> freight!  Thats now a
>>> > Â Â Â Â $67 connector. In AUS$ it's even worse, its
>>> $95.70 !!
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Atempts here privately to get a Semtec sample
>>> failed, as is
>>> > Â Â Â Â often the case when trying for samples of any
>>> part here.
>>> > Â Â Â Â Luckily in this case, I was offered a part from
>>> a UK builder.
>>> > Â Â Â Â Thanks Jim.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â In general V2 should try to use parts that are
>>> reasonably
>>> > Â Â Â Â common in other countries. I know that's
>>> difficult at times.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Glenn
>>> > Â Â Â Â vk3pe
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:01:13 PM
>>> UTC+10, PA3GSB wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Hello All,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes
>>> lite.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â My idea is to add the components of hermis
>>> lite to a pcb
>>> >       (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) Â which
>>> can be clicked
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â to a rasperry pi.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) no need for an ethernet component (no
>>> ethernet code
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â required; also easier to go to latest
>>> hpsdr proposal
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less
>>> complex?)
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) use of oscillator PI (can be set to
>>> 250Mhz; see wspr
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â using a rpi)
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â -) loading fpga program controlled from pi
>>> no flash
>>> >       required?Â
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â The pi can react as an Hermes.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Maybe it is also possible to put the DSP
>>> code in the pi;
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â together with a jetty local server the sdr
>>> can be reached
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â from remote.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Iam interested in reactions.
>>> >
>>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â 73 Johan PA3GSB
Steve Haynal
Aug 10, 2015, 11:23:38 PM8/10/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Johan,
If you want more than an interesting personal project, I think you will have to stress and build on some particular advantages of using a SBC/Raspberry Pi over an existing Hermes-Lite with ethernet. There are at least three that I can think of that have some weight at least with me:
- Small portable standalone SDR. Some people want a complete standalone SDR and don't want to worry about interfacing to a PC. They like touchscreens. A SBC could be at the heart of something like this. Personally, I don't want yet another screen. I'd be interested in a small box that I can take camping that interfaces to my smart phone via wireless or bluetooth...
- Cost reduction. If you want to push the edge on cost, an AD9866+Small FPGA+SPI+SBC might be a win with more of the DSP on the SBC perhaps with GPGPU. There are opensource drivers for the ByteBlaster USB interface. At work, we stream data over that. It would be possible to use that interface.
- More flexible platform. There are more people willing and able to write software than design hardware. By moving more functionality to software on a SBC, you might attract more volunteers.
I've posted my plans for v2.0. It could possibly interface to a SBC via wired SPI, LVDS or GPIO. I'm not interested in going beyond that, but will follow your work with interest if you do.
73,
Steve
KF7O
James Ahlstrom
Aug 11, 2015, 11:04:21 AM8/11/15
to Hermes-Lite
I would think that since Hermes-Lite 2.0 has Ethernet and most SBC have Ethernet, you don't need LVDS. You just connect the two with an Ethernet cable. I admit it is annoying to buy a short cable and coil up the excess length. Or am I missing something here?
Jim
N2ADR
Steve Haynal
Aug 11, 2015, 11:20:50 AM8/11/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Jim,
I agree that most people will and can simply use an ethernet connection between the Hermes-Lite and SBC. I should have mentioned that. I bring up LVDS because the MIPI camera interface on the Raspberry Pi which uses LVDS has been floating around my mind as an interesting inexpensive alternative. The LVDS planned for v2.0 is mainly to chain multiple v1.22 and v2 together with a common synchronous 73.728 MHz clock for beamforming. This is something I plan to test with multiple CVs before finalizing.
73,
Steve
KF7O
Tony Abbey
Aug 12, 2015, 3:59:54 AM8/12/15
to Steve Haynal, Hermes-Lite
Hi Steve
This is brilliant. I have an R Pi and camera but have never considered how it interfaces. A quick Google or is it "Alphabet" got me to an article describing the interface, which in the R Pi consists of 2 high speed LVDS channels, a clock, I2C bus, and 3.3V supply. This camera interface is apparently common to most smart phones, so use of it would enable the Hermes Lite to connect to many processor boards:
Going this way sounds superb, although I suspect the level of knowledge to write the required Linux drivers might be very specialist. I suppose for starters, pseudo "image frames" could be transferred with the R Pi pretending it is talking to a camera, so no new drivers would be required. Then they could be reprocessed into the required data samples after the row and column information is removed.
cheers
Tony
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Phil Harman
Aug 12, 2015, 4:21:47 AM8/12/15
to Hermes-Lite, softerh...@gmail.com
This is a very interesting option. As part of the DFC project I am looking at ways of getting the raw ADC samples into the Jetson board for processing. Do you know what the data rate of the camera interface is? If fast enough then we may be able to package the ADC data into the required format using a small FPGA. I'd guess its going to use 8 bit RGB signals but what packet headers are there that need to be simulated.
Phil Harman
Aug 12, 2015, 4:35:20 AM8/12/15
to Hermes-Lite, softerh...@gmail.com
It may be a problem getting access to the raw data since the R Pi does H268 video compression in hardware. In which case the camera data pins may connect directly to the hardware video processor and not otherwise be accessible.
Tony Abbey
Aug 12, 2015, 4:51:11 AM8/12/15
to Phil Harman, Hermes-Lite, Steve Haynal
Sorry this is getting a bit off-topic, but this post on the raspberrpi.org has lots of links to info and new software for getting raw data, admittedly from a camera:
Best leave this for now, else the prime Hermes-Lite users will start complaining, however the thought of a complete portable low cost, low power R Pi driven tx/rx seems well on the horizon now.
Tony
On 12 August 2015 at 09:35, Phil Harman <pvha...@gmail.com> wrote:
It may be a problem getting access to the raw data since the R Pi does H268 video compression in hardware. In which case the camera data pins may connect directly to the hardware video processor and not otherwise be accessible.
Steve Haynal
Aug 12, 2015, 3:23:07 PM8/12/15
to Hermes-Lite, pvha...@gmail.com, softerh...@gmail.com
Hi Tony and Phil,
Thanks for the discussion and links. A MIPI CSI-2 interface looks interesting to me but there is a lot more to understand. Here are a few more thoughts:
This introduction is very helpful in understanding MIPI and the various standards, what they are and what speeds they can achieve.
Lattice is touting using their low cost devices as CSI bridges. The linked example indicates that uncompressed, raw rgb is part of what CSI supports. With multiple lanes, the data rates required for DFC should be possible.
There are interesting CSI bridges available as single chip solutions. This bridge supports 4 lanes at 1 Gbps/lane.
What is the maximum bandwidth per lane does the D-PHY on the Raspberry Pi support? The D-PHY spec is 1.5 Gbps, but what the Raspberry Pi supports might be much less.
Some high end ADC/DACs have native LVDS interfaces. Phil, you may be able to realize your dream and get rid of even the smallest FPGA!
MAX 10 LVDS support is documented here and here. With these parts in the single supply setup I'd like to use, I hope to achieve speeds of 100 to 200 Mbps/lane. This is enough for Hermes-Lite to Hermes-Lite or Hermes-Lite to SBC connection for clock synchronization and partially decimated data to support diversity/MMIO/beamforming, but not enough for DFC even at 4 lanes.
There may be some voltage standard issues in connecting MAX 10 LVDS directly to the Raspberry PI MIPI.
Linux drivers are not too hard to write. I've written a couple before but don't want to undertake writing another just now. This excellent and free book is the standard.
73.
Steve
KF7O
On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 1:51:11 AM UTC-7, Tony Abbey wrote:
Sorry this is getting a bit off-topic, but this post on the raspberrpi.org has lots of links to info and new software for getting raw data, admittedly from a camera:https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=109137Best leave this for now, else the prime Hermes-Lite users will start complaining, however the thought of a complete portable low cost, low power R Pi driven tx/rx seems well on the horizon now.Tony
Steve Haynal
Aug 13, 2015, 12:08:55 AM8/13/15
to Hermes-Lite, pvha...@gmail.com, softerh...@gmail.com
The new MAX 10 Neek evaluation board from Terasic has a MIPI interface. It may have some reference designs on using it.
73,
Tony Abbey
Aug 15, 2015, 12:23:38 PM8/15/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Steve
In answer to your speed question, reading through the R Pi forums it seems that each of the two lanes of the mipi csi-2 is capable of 1Gbps 1.8V LVDS. There is also a similar two lane 1Gbps interface in the output direction for a display. These seem to have been discussed by people wanting a high speed ethernet i/f, because the existing one is limited to USB-2 speed. Only the GPU is capable of talking to these interfaces at these sorts of speeds, but the R Pi foundation has already ported high speed FFT routines to the GPU in response to us radio amateurs who met up with Eben Upton at an RSGB exhibition, so there may be all sorts of possibilities there.
Tony
On Thursday, 6 August 2015 05:09:36 UTC+1, Steve Haynal wrote:
Hi Johan and Tony,Thanks for sharing your interesting ideas. It would be great to see someone link up a Hermes-Lite like SDR to a single board computer like the Raspberry Pi. Here are some thoughts.
- How fast is the Raspberry Pi ethernet? I've seen numbers showing that the latest models can achieve a bit more than 200 Mbps and are limited by the USB interface to ethernet. In v2.0, I'd like to be able to send the full ADC spectrum to keep the door open for DFC use. This requires 73.728e6 * 12 bits = 885 Mbps + overhead at a minimum. This can barely fit into a true gigabit ethernet link which I would like to use.
- I like the option of connecting to a SBC without ethernet though. Leaving ethernet off if not needed can save some money. I like the approach taken by John Seamons where he uses a SPI interface at 48 Mbps to a Beagle Bone Black. You can fit several receivers into 48 Mbps and SPI is very simple. In version 2.0, I am thinking of setting aside 4 pins for such a SPI interface. Do you have another high speed interface in mind?
- In v2.0, I'd prefer to stay single board computer agnostic and don't want to make a Raspberry Pi or Beagle Bone Black specific cape. There are many good SBCs out there. This is another motivation for SPI.
- In full duplex, the AD9866 runs at 147.456 MHz. There is potential for signal integrity issues at this speed over the typical 0.1 inch headers seen on SBCs that I'd like to steer clear of.
- It is amazing what people have done with the Raspberry Pi. I am particularly impressed with WsprryPi. Does this use the same frequency generation engine/ideas as oscillator Pi? For high-speed ADC sampling systems, clock phase noise and jitter are important considerations. See this app note for details. What are the clock phase noise and jitter specs for oscillator Pi?
73,SteveKF7O
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 3:02:13 PM UTC-7, Tony Abbey wrote:
Hi JohanYour ideas sound great. I have long been a fan of the R Pi, and helped contribute code to the RPi Wobbulator. Please keep us informed of any developments, or help required.Tony
On Wednesday, 5 August 2015 09:01:13 UTC+1, PA3GSB wrote:
Hello All,
I was thinking about a version 2 of hermes lite.
My idea is to add the components of hermis lite to a pcb (including an FPGA eg cyclone II) which can be clicked to a rasperry pi.-) no need for an ethernet component (no ethernet code required; also easier to go to latest hpsdr proposal protoco; reduction of code in FPGA ; less complex?)-) use of oscillator PI (can be set to 250Mhz; see wspr using a rpi)-) loading fpga program controlled from pi no flash required?
The pi can react as an Hermes.
Phil Harman
Aug 15, 2015, 11:54:11 PM8/15/15
to Hermes-Lite
"This requires 73.728e6 * 12 bits = 885 Mbps + overhead at a minimum. This can barely fit into a true gigabit ethernet link which I would like to use."'
if you use raw Ethernet frames rather than UDP/IP then this will fit just fine. For DFC testing I use 61.44e6 * 16 bits = 983.04 Mbps with no problems at all.
73 Phil...VK6PH
Steve Haynal
Aug 17, 2015, 1:59:38 AM8/17/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Tony,
Thanks for tracking down this information. It is very interesting and promising, but with deference to the second system effect, all I am willing to offer for v2.0 is to work with you to make sure I don't do something that rules out using the planned v2.0 LVDS IO with this csi-2 interface.
73,
Steve
KF7O
Steve Haynal
Aug 17, 2015, 2:02:09 AM8/17/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the information. I do eventually want to try porting your DFC work to Hermes-Lite v2.0. I'm also curious if we can encapsulate the lower Hermes-Lite bitrate in UDP/IP.
73,
Steve
KF7O
Tony Abbey
Aug 17, 2015, 12:04:44 PM8/17/15
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Steve
I looked at your link, and I totally agree, which was why I was initially reticent about cluttering up the group with the off-topic stuff. Anyway - it's all food for thought, and I will continue grazing through the R Pi and other similar forums to see what people are doing to utilise these lovely high speed channels. I'm sure csi-2 is a good way way to go once the bugs are ironed out of the present interfaces, and probably is not very removed from Gbit ethernet.
73,
Tony G3OVH
Florin Tanasa
Oct 2, 2016, 2:18:35 PM10/2/16
to Hermes-Lite
Hi Johan,
Now exist some boards with intel CPU, so this can be used with windows, linux or android system.
Up board http://www.up-board.org/ $99,00 2GB+16GBeMMC 40-pin Raspberry Pi compatible header with GPIOs, I2C, SPI, UART. etc…
LattePanda http://www.lattepanda.com/products/ $79,00 2G Ram, 32GB eMMC and for $29,00 can be added IPS Display
Udoo-x86 http://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/ Start from $125,00 but have 3 video output
73, YO8TFF, Florin
Now exist some boards with intel CPU, so this can be used with windows, linux or android system.
Up board http://www.up-board.org/ $99,00 2GB+16GBeMMC 40-pin Raspberry Pi compatible header with GPIOs, I2C, SPI, UART. etc…
LattePanda http://www.lattepanda.com/products/ $79,00 2G Ram, 32GB eMMC and for $29,00 can be added IPS Display
Udoo-x86 http://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/ Start from $125,00 but have 3 video output
73, YO8TFF, Florin
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