Fixing a problem that isn't? CFEngine, Yaml Syntax!

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Andy Chase

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Oct 17, 2012, 11:22:31 PM10/17/12
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Hey Everyone! My name is Andy Chase, and I'm rather new to the CFEngine community.

I did a thorough study of each Configuration Management tools and found the syntax of CFEngine to be a stumbling block to implementing it in my organization.

I liked CFEngine so much I decided to fix this problem.

Here is the wiki article on GitHub that fully describes what I mean and how I fixed it:

I went ahead and wrote the code to do this. Here is the pull request with the code changes in it. Note how few changes I actually had to make to make this happen:

Have a nice day!
  Andy.

P.S.
The code is backwards compatible with the old syntax and for compatibility I tested it against the standard library, let me know any problems you encounter while using it.

Bas van der Vlies

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Oct 18, 2012, 5:15:44 AM10/18/12
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> --
Andy,

Nice achievement. Just did some simple tests and everything worked as expected. I tip include some yaml examples in your pull
request or branch.

regards




--
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* Bas van der Vlies e-mail: ba...@sara.nl *
* SARA - Academic Computing Services Amsterdam, The Netherlands *
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Marco Marongiu

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:05:15 AM10/18/12
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Hi Andy

Your approach is all interesting, thanks for posting that. I hope that a
good discussion will stem from here.

Since you mention a blog post of mine, I feel I should say something :)
Of course I was confusing bodies and bundles when I started. But I don't
feel like that was the biggest roadblock at the time. I listed a number
of them in the same post: some have been fixed (e.g.: new templates are
smarter than the old style ones and allow for better file formatting),
but if you look carefully you'll notice that none of those could or will
be fixed by a simple syntax change.

An easier syntax can surely lower one of cfengine's entry barriers (how
many people get trapped in puppet's own mess by an apparent
simplicity!). But that's not going to make miracles. Other roadblocks
need to be lowered or removed. This can be one, for those who think
cfe's syntax is too difficult. But there are more.

Ciao!
-- bronto

Marco Marongiu

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:14:36 AM10/18/12
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On 18/10/12 11:15, Bas van der Vlies wrote:
> I tip include some yaml examples in your pull request or branch.

I'd be curious to see some examples with attr as well

-- M

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:29:31 AM10/18/12
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Thanks for your interest!

Yes, surely I must add some more examples.

Of course I never thought the syntax alone is what keeps people away, but I think it's a big piece of the puzzle (at least for me).

The next roadblock I would like to demolish is the error messages from the parser. I think that helpful error messages are often the primary teacher for new people, and I plan on implementing a file that scans for some common mistakes and is able to figure out better where the mistake is, and also in general adding more helpful information to the messages.

After errors have become more helpful I want to implement an interactive "try online" tutorial similar in spirit to tryruby.org. Maybe like a game, where you have to write policies to fix computers and respond to events.

I think with those three things ( Clear Syntax, Helpful Errors, 0 Setup to Trying & Learning ), CFEngine could deliver a knockout punch to newbies.

Anyway that my my masterplan,
   -Andy

Bas van der Vlies

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Oct 18, 2012, 7:33:37 AM10/18/12
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On 10/18/2012 12:29 PM, Andy Chase wrote:
> Thanks for your interest!
>
> Yes, surely I must add some more examples.
>
> Of course I never thought the syntax alone is what keeps people away, but I think it's a big piece of the puzzle (at least for me).
>
> The next roadblock I would like to demolish is the error messages from the parser. I think that helpful error messages are often the
> primary teacher for new people, and I plan on implementing a file that scans for some common mistakes and is able to figure out
> better where the mistake is, and also in general adding more helpful information to the messages.
>
> After errors have become more helpful I want to implement an interactive "try online" tutorial similar in spirit to tryruby.org.
> Maybe like a game, where you have to write policies to fix computers and respond to events.
>
> I think with those three things ( Clear Syntax, Helpful Errors, 0 Setup to Trying & Learning ), CFEngine could deliver a knockout
> punch to newbies.
>
> Anyway that my my masterplan,

I have written some lexer/parser for other projects. If i look at the cfengine implementation then they have implemented tokens for
keywords, but not for all keywords. It would be easy if they are keywords so you can better check the syntax and report what is
missing or required. It just a suggestion

like:

bundle agent test --> in yacc:

bundle : BUNDLE bundle_type ID
bundle_type : AGENT
| COMMON
| EDIT_LINE
| SERVER

Now if one of these keywords are missing it will report a syntax error.

neilhwatson

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Oct 18, 2012, 9:52:22 AM10/18/12
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I appreciate this rebellious state of mind. Cfengine is not easy to learn.  I don't think  it is the syntax alone.  The concept of declarative versus procedural, classes, and letting go of control to trust the agent will do the right things all combine to make Cfengine hard in the beginning.

main:
    promises =:     # <- Bundlesequence renamed to promises
        # Common bundles first for best practice
        -   "def"

# Bundles are renamed to promises (or proms),

A key concept has been missed here. Bundles are a logical collection of promises. To rename this is
very confusing.


Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 2:59:02 PM10/18/12
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Thanks for looking into this.

I think you are right in that the syntax isn't alone the only barrier, but it certainly is a barrier, and lowering that barrier and making it "fun" to work with could be a pretty good bandaid when dealing with the more difficult topics.

What do you suggest? Is bundles & bundlesequence really what you would say is the most intuitive & clear term here?

neilhwatson

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Oct 18, 2012, 3:10:35 PM10/18/12
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On Thursday, 18 October 2012 14:59:03 UTC-4, Andy Chase wrote:

What do you suggest? Is bundles & bundlesequence really what you would say is the most intuitive & clear term here?


Yes. Since you are new to Cfengine, please consider getting to know it a bit better before deciding that it needs changing.  Certainly there is room for improvement in most aspects of Cfengine but, experience teaches us where the priorities lie.

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 3:33:36 PM10/18/12
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Okay,

I respect your opinion, certainly I am new to CFEngine  I'm not afraid of change on any scale either, but I realize that a change like this may not be the best fit for the CFEngine community.

In terms of priorities what I'm trying to accomplish is lower all Barriers of Entry for CFEngine and get people excited about learning about and using it.

This is an important point: For existing users of CFEngine, obviously the syntax is hardly a tough point. Once you fully understand it and have use it long enough, even the thickest of syntaxs can seem natural. I'm trying to modify it to be more natural for people who haven't used it before.

neilhwatson

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Oct 18, 2012, 3:46:12 PM10/18/12
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I think it's a matter of perspective.  I do not know YAML syntax so, if I saw Cfengine for the first time the syntax would be no less confusing than what it is now. You are familiar with YAML so using it with Cfengine likely makes you comfortable.

Cfengine syntax does have is warts.  What language doesn't? I would certainly like to see the existing syntax improved.  For example.

1. White space in variable syntax should be allowed.  ${array[${i}]} is valid while the more readable ${array[ ${i} ]} is not. This is even more helpful when using references: ${${arrayref}[${i}]} versus ${ ${arrayref}[ ${i} ] }.
2. Bundles may be called using naked variables but there are exceptions. usebundle => ${bundle} is allowed while usebundle => ${bundle[${i}]} is not.

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 3:55:38 PM10/18/12
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There's probably a lot of truth in that, certainly I've used yaml in the past. I think that's a benefit of using it though is because it's fairly popular, others may have used it in the past as well before they see cfengine.

I'm going to look into those two issues you pointed out, I may be able to add them to the proposal.

Also I just pushed a new commit removing proms & promises. It's just the old syntax for those two terms.

neilhwatson

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Oct 18, 2012, 4:11:42 PM10/18/12
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Open bug to naked variable in bundles issue:
https://cfengine.com/bugtracker/view.php?id=1277

Brian Bennett

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Oct 18, 2012, 5:36:55 PM10/18/12
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I'm with Neil on this.

I've used YAML, and it's fine. However, as I pointed out to someone else today, cfengine is based wholly on Promise Theory. The syntax language that cfengien uses to express promises is a result of its basis on Promise Theory. IMO the learning curve is understanding Promise Theory and letting go of the "old" way of doing things. As you learn and understand Promise Theory the syntax language becomes natural.

Anybody who has taken the time to learn one language can pick up another. This is pretty much a proven fact in the world of computer science. So wether new users expressing promises in native cfengine syntax or in YAML they still need to learn and understand Promise Theory.


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Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:01:54 PM10/18/12
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So I see you don't think there is any benefits with the syntax being yaml compliant from the learing standpoint.

Do you think there could be other benefits (being able to be machine parsed & generated, ide benefits, easier to read) that might make it worth while?

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:33:35 PM10/18/12
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Would anyone be in favor of allowing a alternate name for bundlesequence -> bundles or active_bundles in the body common control or main block?

Right now it's just not consistent with the other list terms that are used there: inputs, site_classes, goal_patterns

Just a thought,
   Andy.

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:53:53 PM10/18/12
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On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Andy Chase <aspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would anyone be in favor of allowing a alternate name for bundlesequence ->
> bundles or active_bundles in the body common control or main block?
>
> Right now it's just not consistent with the other list terms that are used
> there: inputs, site_classes, goal_patterns

Hi, Andy. I appreciate your enthusiasm in making CFEngine more accessible.
I share this same enthusiasm!

Just to give you context on the origin of the term "bundlesequence":
in CFEngine 2, the order of actions was goverened by a list called the
actionsequence. In CFEngine 3, this morphed into bundlesequence.

I heartily agree that "bundles" (list of bundles of promises for the
promise engine to process) sounds more natural, and would be
consistent with "inputs" (list of files to read in).

How to change the language of CFEngine 3 now that it is in production
use? We can add "bundles" as a synonym for "bundlesequence" so as not
to break legacy code.

I very very much agree that making the parser error messages more
user-friendly would go a long way in helping new users. I opened a
ticket proposing a hint when the user puts in "edit_lines" instead of
"edit_line", or "insert_line" instead of "insert_lines". This hasn't
been actioned as yet.
https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1019

Maybe even colorizing the very first line in multi-line output, if the
terminal supports it, as that usually contains the clue.

Best,
Aleksey

Brian Bennett

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Oct 18, 2012, 6:55:07 PM10/18/12
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On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Andy Chase <aspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
So I see you don't think there is any benefits with the syntax being yaml compliant from the learing standpoint.

Not inherently, no.


Do you think there could be other benefits (being able to be machine parsed & generated, ide benefits, easier to read) that might make it worth while?

I don't have enough information to know. It's certainly plausible. But that would have to be proven beyond the subjective "I like yaml better" or "there are more yaml users". 

The good news is that particularly since cfengine is open source you're free to make a yaml parser or even fork it. If it's Clearly Better(TM) then it will win by virtue. There's certainly no advantage in cfengine using its own specific syntax just for the sake of being different. Cfengine will be 20 years old next year, and as I said the syntax has grown around the fundamental design architecture. It's not different for difference sake, but that was where the need lead.

Don't be surprised or discouraged if many of us (especially long time users) aren't interested or take a wait-and-see attitude. But that also doesn't mean that you can't do it anyway.

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 18, 2012, 7:42:54 PM10/18/12
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Hi, Andy. I am intrigued by your proposal.

Anything that increases the signal to syntax ratio would be a win, in
terms of helping the intention to shine through. If you can get rid
of curly braces and semicolons without loss of clarity, that's a win
in my book.

But be advised a lot of thought and experience went into constructing
the current CFEngine 3 syntax. The curly braces and semi-colons are
there for a reason. (To keep things simple and unambigious for the
parser. We don't want any surprises from our "root" robot.) It was
possible to get surprises in CFEngine 2 language.

A couple of other comments:

Sysadmins would potentially have to learn two things: the CFEngine DSL
and YAML. Doesn't that raise the barrier to entry? (on the other
hand, once you learn YAML, you could re-use that knowledge in other
applications)

Can you illustrate what CFEngine variables would look like in your
YAML CFEngine dialect? Strings, lists and arrays, if you please.

I encourage you to get deeper into CFEngine, get some experience
running it in production, hey? Good to have you in the group!

Yours,
Aleksey

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 8:34:32 PM10/18/12
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Brian,

Interesting, thanks for the encouragement!

make a yaml parser or even fork it
Done! I have already made the parser (see original post), but I will continue to try to improve and test it to see if it can truly win-out the old syntax.

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 9:07:49 PM10/18/12
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Aleksey,

That's interesting history on the bundlesequence! I'll add the alternate to my proposal a bit later. Like this syntax in general, it will be completely backwards compatible with the old syntax. 

I am excited about the error checking library, I plan on implementing levenshtein distance on the section titles to offer suggestions if they are close.

Is there a page where there are common problems people have when running cfengine? I want to have the error checking look for those problems and gently correct them. If not I'll make one on github.

Sysadmins would potentially have to learn two things: the CFEngine DSL 
and YAML

Now, I respect that you have had years of experience teaching CFEngine, but I would argue that new sysadmins already have to learn a syntax & a DSL. The hope is that if they have already had experience with YAML, they can reuse that knowledge and just learn the specific structure of CFEngine and the DSL. If they haven't then I admit the barrier to entry would be about the same.

Can you illustrate what CFEngine variables would look like in your 
YAML CFEngine dialect?  Strings, lists and arrays, if you please. 

Make sure you check out the example on the wiki page

Currently the variable setting looks like this:
vars:
    "master_location": { string =: "/var/cfengine/masterfiles" }
    "alternate_location": { string =: "/var/cfengine/alternatefiles"}
I plan on seeing if I can get YAML associative arrays working based on the flow style.

I hope you like it!
   Andy.

Andy Chase

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Oct 18, 2012, 9:19:20 PM10/18/12
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Lists currently look like this:

"my_slist" : { slist =:
                  - "list"
                  - "of"
                  - "strings" 
              }

But be advised a lot of thought and experience went into constructing 
the current CFEngine 3 syntax.  The curly braces and semi-colons are 
there for a reason.  (To keep things simple and unambigious for the 
parser.  We don't want any surprises from our "root" robot.)  

I worked hard to keep the same level of ambiguity, for that reason I had to use =: instead of yaml's :, and also add the :{} syntax to the promisors even though it is more to type. I think only time and a lot of testing will tell how reliable this syntax is compared to the older one.

-Andy.

Brian Bennett

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Oct 19, 2012, 1:20:10 AM10/19/12
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Andy,

This is a good example of why we say you should learn cfengine as it is first. Not even a whole day has passed and you've already learned something that changed *your* mind.

Cfengine has been developed by very intelligent people who spent no small amount of time trying to decide the best approach. Don't be surprised if you find yourself coming around ;-)

--
Brian

Andy Chase

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Oct 19, 2012, 1:35:05 AM10/19/12
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Bryan,

About the bundles? I removed those changes not because I was convinced or learned something, but because that's obviously that was a sticking point with this idea that I didn't know would be such a red flag with you guys.

I'm not an all-or-nothing kind of guy. I can compromise.

With all due respect, I think that jumping to the "you don't know enough to make helpful changes" may be a mistake.

-Andy.

Brian Bennett

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Oct 19, 2012, 2:08:32 AM10/19/12
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I'm not saying that at all. In fact I encourage you to keep questioning. But expect there to be a good reason. And when there isn't, there's an opportunity to promote change.

The best thing for our community is active participants, and fresh ideas are never a bad thing.

-- 
Brian

Mark Burgess

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Oct 19, 2012, 2:23:08 AM10/19/12
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Yes, great discussion between you two. At CFEngine we are strong on the science, and science is basically a discussion and trying to poke holes in ideas, so you keep right on doing that, and then come and work for us :-)

M
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CTO and Founder
CFEngine

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Twitter: @markburgess_osl, @CFEngine_news

Bas van der Vlies

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Oct 19, 2012, 2:56:24 AM10/19/12
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> I very very much agree that making the parser error messages more
> user-friendly would go a long way in helping new users. I opened a
> ticket proposing a hint when the user puts in "edit_lines" instead of
> "edit_line", or "insert_line" instead of "insert_lines". This hasn't
> been actioned as yet.
> https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1019
>
+1 The cf-parser can be improved, will definitely lower the learning curve , also see:
* https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1444

Nicolas Charles

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Oct 19, 2012, 5:26:39 AM10/19/12
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On 19/10/2012 08:56, Bas van der Vlies wrote:
>> I very very much agree that making the parser error messages more
>> user-friendly would go a long way in helping new users. I opened a
>> ticket proposing a hint when the user puts in "edit_lines" instead of
>> "edit_line", or "insert_line" instead of "insert_lines". This hasn't
>> been actioned as yet.
>> https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1019
>>
> +1 The cf-parser can be improved, will definitely lower the learning curve , also see:
> * https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1444
>
>
Oh, I would love to have this kind of hints ! I'm quite annoyed when
I've got a syntax error, and the cf-promises end up telling me the
cfengine_stdlib.cf is not valid

--
Nicolas CHARLES

Andy Chase

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Oct 19, 2012, 6:13:33 PM10/19/12
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If anyone is still interested in the developments of this, I just pushed a commit that increased readability of the policies, as well as fixing a compatibility problem where lists inside promise attributes wouldn't be valid yaml.

Anyway check out the code example on the wiki

With this latest change, curly braces are gone, as well as semicolons. Commas are only used in parameters. Doesn't that excite you?!

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:22:31 PM UTC-7, Andy Chase wrote:
Hey Everyone! My name is Andy Chase, and I'm rather new to the CFEngine community.

I did a thorough study of each Configuration Management tools and found the syntax of CFEngine to be a stumbling block to implementing it in my organization.

I liked CFEngine so much I decided to fix this problem.

Here is the wiki article on GitHub that fully describes what I mean and how I fixed it:

I went ahead and wrote the code to do this. Here is the pull request with the code changes in it. Note how few changes I actually had to make to make this happen:

Have a nice day!
  Andy.

P.S.
The code is backwards compatible with the old syntax and for compatibility I tested it against the standard library, let me know any problems you encounter while using it.

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 19, 2012, 8:45:13 PM10/19/12
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Andy Chase <aspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone is still interested in the developments of this ...

Yes!! Continue! :)


> With this latest change, curly braces are gone, as well as semicolons.
> Commas are only used in parameters. Doesn't that excite you?!

I'm excited. :) Could you please show an example of how variables
are used? I do understand how to define a variable, but how would
you call a scalar? Iterate through a list? Use an array?

Yours,
Aleksey

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 19, 2012, 9:09:35 PM10/19/12
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 2:26 AM, Nicolas Charles
<nicolas...@normation.com> wrote:
> On 19/10/2012 08:56, Bas van der Vlies wrote:
>>>
>>> I very very much agree that making the parser error messages more
>>> user-friendly would go a long way in helping new users. I opened a
>>> ticket proposing a hint when the user puts in "edit_lines" instead of
>>> "edit_line", or "insert_line" instead of "insert_lines". This hasn't
>>> been actioned as yet.
>>> https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1019
>>>
>> +1 The cf-parser can be improved, will definitely lower the learning curve
>> , also see:
>> * https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1444


I just added:

https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1507 - Could you please make the first
line of "syntax error" output stand out?

https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1508 - Hint if the user does not
terminate a statement.

https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1509 - LHS is supposed to be CFEngine
reserved word only. Provide a hint if the user puts something else
there (such as an RHS value). That happens often when learning.

https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1510 - Could you please replace "!!!
No bundlesequence in the common control body" with " !!! No
bundlesequence in the common control body or on the command line"
https://cfengine.com/dev/issues/1511 - Is it possible to have the
parser provide a hint if the user forgets to terminate a quote?

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 19, 2012, 9:14:36 PM10/19/12
to Andy Chase, cfengine
You're welcome for the background on "bundlesequence".


> I am excited about the error checking library, I plan on implementing
> levenshtein distance on the section titles to offer suggestions if they are
> close.

Great!


> Is there a page where there are common problems people have when running
> cfengine?

No. But I just opened several tickets with the things I usually see
in class. I posted the ticket id's in this thread just a few minutes
ago.


>> Sysadmins would potentially have to learn two things: the CFEngine DSL
>> and YAML
>
> If they haven't [learned YAML yet] then I admit the barrier to entry would be about the
> same.

Agreed. I haven't had to use YAML professionally yet. I'm not
against learning it. I can see how it can be very useful. I'm
curious if the entirety of the CFEngine 3 language can be expressed
using YAML. That's why I asked you about variables. :)

Continue!

Best,
Aleksey

Andy Chase

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Oct 19, 2012, 10:07:38 PM10/19/12
to help-c...@googlegroups.com, Andy Chase

Alex,

Variable setting with the latest commit now look like this:

^"my_slist": 
     -- slist =:
            - "list"          
            - "of"                
            - "strings"
^"my_string": -- string =: "Hey"

I had to change it because the old way wasn't yaml compliant. I am working on implementing yaml associative arrays so I will post code example of that when it's ready.

-Andy

Aleksey Tsalolikhin

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Oct 23, 2012, 12:50:47 AM10/23/12
to Andy Chase, help-c...@googlegroups.com
OK. Andy, what do you do with a variable after you set it? That's
what I want to see, please.
How do you use a variable?

Yours,
Aleksey
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